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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Celebrity Big Brother 2007

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14:32 / 22.01.07

she isnt as famous and as controversial a figure as jade, i guess.
i think my opinion's been covered a bit above, but i think the real reason for jade's being picked on is her visibility and what seh has been used to represent.

she's been a figure of aspiration for many(she's just like me, and look how well she has done) in the anyone-can-be-a-celeb-i'm-worth-it-culture, but i think she's also, by the same token, been a figure of hate for all those who dislike that same culture and sneer at those who like it.

i get the feeling that people who don't like who she is or where she's from, have in jade a symbol of all that they dislike, a repository for all their ill will towards the heat magazine reading, reality telly watching, ugg boot buying public.
the blame for all that is wrong with britain style of criticism that i hear some folks level at that vague demoggraphic has found a target in jade.

i think lucy just isnt that figure, that hero and that villain; she's just a naive young gap year girl who has barely figured out grown up life is upon her and who has spent her life unchallenged and safe.
i think she's not really anyone's problem, nor is she anyone's solution, at least not in the way jade has become.

hideous though it may be, i think jade's situation is less about her bineg racist, and more about her being a role model to some, and figure of scorn for others who hate 'trash culture'.
'chav' seems to have been the slagging of choice after the physical appearance and sexual insults thrown at jade, and i think that speaks volumes.

14:46 / 22.01.07

Yes. I think there is a ‘How dare someone like that look down on Shilpa just because she’s Asian’ attitude towards Jade that, weirdly, mirrors Jade (et al)’s attitude to Shilpa (‘How dare (someone like her) look down on me’). Wheels within wheels…

I think it might be too early to tell with Lucy. Maybe reaction will gather pace gradually, as it did with Jade, or maybe being posh will immunise her. I don’t think people look at someone like Lucy and think of her as being inflyencial in the way they do Jade.
The way the current debate about race shades into issue of class is interesting and puzzling and is breaking my head.

Whisky Priestess

15:02 / 22.01.07

I always conceptualise it as a card game with (say) four suits; let's call them money, class, race, success.

People attribute different values to those suits; instead of a Two of Success being worth the same as a Two of Money, there's often an unspoken, innate assumption that a "low card" in the suit they value most trumps a high one in a suit they see as being of less value.

Thus, my two of race (if I am white and think non-whites are "below" me) trumps their aces of class, success etc. - doesn't matter if they've got a full house of everything I lack, because this is my special "advantage" and Thus I Win. Imagine how comforting it must be to cling to your skin colour or nationality as "superior" to all others, especially when you've got shit all else going for you. Very National Front/BNP. Anyway ...

The problem for those who quite metaphorically play the race card in this way is that increasingly few other people are playing the same game, or are even sitting at the same table. For which, much thanks.

15:07 / 22.01.07

beautifully put.

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16:42 / 22.01.07

Thing is, if Shipwrecked is filmed in advance, they know shit about it that we don't. Not necessarily a Damascene conversion, but maybe she does get called to account. They have racism and other unpleasantness on Wife Swap all the time, from what I hear, but it doesn't get pulled because there's generally some sort of conclusion reached.

CBB, being live, and an ongoing situation, I imagine is a bit different.

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16:44 / 22.01.07

Oh, a quick look has found out Shipwrecked is in the shit too, though the C4 spokesperson seems to back up my speculation.

16:44 / 22.01.07

good point.

miss wonderstarr

16:46 / 22.01.07

Shipwrecked ("Now C4 in 'Slave' Race Row" or similar) is totally front-page news at London Bridge circa 6pm.

17:22 / 22.01.07

Well, I expect a number of news sources to run with this because that's how news works: take one popular story and find others that look a bit like it and print 'em.

miss wonderstarr

17:39 / 22.01.07

Well, I think you're entirely right. This new story clearly fits within a kind of gleefully-disapproving, slightly Schadenfreudian media discourse of "C4 on the ropes because of race rows".

17:48 / 22.01.07

Hellbunny, when you say, ...or 'has a punchable face' (a lovely phrase used fairly often on this message board" can you give any actual examples?

18:01 / 22.01.07

Lula - here for one thing.
I liked Hellbunny's point about punchable faces. It is a euphemism.

They have racism and other unpleasantness on Wife Swap all the time, from what I hear, but it doesn't get pulled because there's generally some sort of conclusion reached.

...the C4 spokesperson seems to back up my speculation.

See, I don't really buy this. For one thing, the show is broadcast 'as live' and although the producers might know that "Over the course of the series it becomes clear that her views change", the viewer doesn't? Wife Swap or any other one-off documentary might be a bit different largely because the offense and the resolution are self-contained.
By I suppose the important question is why does that matter at all? The racism on CBB was always going to be resolved eventually. So, what does matter? The nature of the resolution? What kind of resolution mitigates? Out-and-out universal condemnation? Merely opposition? Genuine remorse from the offender?

18:05 / 22.01.07

We've got a thread about it, Lula...

18:05 / 22.01.07

(Beat me to it, Smoothly.)

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18:39 / 22.01.07

Smoothly- I'm not saying it justifies it, just that that's probably where the difference lies vis a vis outrage.

Bad example, because I'm drunk, but imagine if, say, Romper Stomper had a "happy" ending whereby Hando and Davey remained the best of mates and got rid of all the Vietnamese people in the neighbourhood. THAT's resolution of a sort, isn't it? But it's a very different sort.

19:02 / 22.01.07

Yeah, sorry stoat, I did realise that. It was the Channel 4 press officer's line (that you predicted) that I didn't buy.
I agree with you.

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19:06 / 22.01.07

No probs, dude.

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19:33 / 22.01.07

Even a drunken old cynical fuckstick like myself has to admit that Dirk and Shilpa are incredibly sweet.

SHIRK FTW!!!

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19:58 / 22.01.07

Been re-reading George's Doom Patrols today, and by crikey if Cleo isn't Crazy Jane.

"Tiara only comes out for ten minutes, and doesn't want to hurt anyone..."

Hopefully when Black Annis turns up, Jack'll be in the room.

20:04 / 22.01.07

What is Templeton's problem with Cleo? Did he think she was aping his flirtation with Shilpa? Is that what he seems so offended by?

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20:13 / 22.01.07

No, I think it's the fact that it went on for AGES after he'd clearly told her to stop.

Also, to a viewer, the bits with her telling everone (including BB) that soon "he'll crack... and not in a good way. We just need to keep pushing".

Not quite the same as the Dirk/Shilpa thing.

20:14 / 22.01.07

Been re-reading George's Doom Patrols today, and by crikey if Cleo isn't Crazy Jane.

More Kerrrrayzee Jane ie. trying a little too hard with the MPD schtick.

20:20 / 22.01.07

At least Leo only referred to himself in the third person singular.

I have to leave the room when Cleo is doing all that. That's probably why Face's response seemed like an over-reaction. Although he seemed to regard her with some disdain before that.
Perhaps I'm reading this all wrong. I am finding her pretty annoying myself, and I don't have to live with her. She's a bit of a disappointment really.

miss wonderstarr

20:26 / 22.01.07

Yeah, I think it's more Wacky Jane, or Zany Jane.

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20:37 / 22.01.07

More Kerrrrayzee Jane ie. trying a little too hard with the MPD schtick.

To be fair, so was George, arguably.

miss wonderstarr

21:01 / 22.01.07

Digital Spy is suggesting lower motives than just "trying painfully too-hard" for Cleo's astonishingly dated and dead Vegas circa-1973 vaudeville routine: apparently Dirk's father and mother suffered a similar incident to the one she was acting out, with the mother shooting the father in the head or something. (It's losing some power in my fatigued retelling, I admit). Anyway, according to DS, Jo also knew Dirk's backstory, hence her appalled shifting during the public screening of Cleo's routine.

21:11 / 22.01.07

You know I had completely forgotten that punchable thread even existed. Perhaps that was a good thing.

21:21 / 22.01.07

But wasn't Cleo being annoying on purpose, in response to Dirk's pornography comments as well as his general flirtatious attitude towards the younger women in the house? (ie, his statement that he hadn't showered and that sweat acts as an aphrodisiac, his playful "I will have one of you" comments...I'm sure there is more of this stuff that I have forgotten.)

Not sure what I think about it really, because I'd have to have more context. I do know that older men doing the jokey flirt with young women can be nauseating, and quickly shade into harrassment. The hostility toward him could be down to that, I suppose. Any thoughts?

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21:27 / 22.01.07

Basically, Dirk's dad used to beat and abuse his mum, and one day his brother came home and shot the father dead.

I'm inclined to think it was just an unfortunate choice of comedy on Cleo's part, but it certainly explains why Dirk looked quite so pissed off right then.

If she DID know, then that's actually quite fucking unforgivable, but... I don't think she did. Someone on DS said it had been discussed in the house, but I haven't seen it.

21:28 / 22.01.07

That's what I reckon, Lurid. That Cleo was - to an extent - lampooning Dirk's behaviour, and Dirk knew it and felt humiliated by it. He reacted stongly quickly, and seems unforgiving of it even now.

21:28 / 22.01.07

Cleo says her reason for behaving towards Dirk as she is doing is because of those things, that he talks about porn in front of 'young' girls, that he was fondling Shilpa, etc. I would agree that he has been behaving in some uncomfortable ways, his hands on Shilpa when he was trying to cuddle her or tickle her or whatever he was doing and some of the comments he makes. However, Cleo's behaviour is becoming really quite bizarre, it's more than just payback. It all just seems a bit wrong to me; like there are ulterior, or at least other motives behind her behaviour. Those could be anything; that she is setting herself up as Mother protector, that she fancies the pants off him, I don't know. But if the story behind his parents death is true and she knew that, well that's just really horrible behaviour.

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21:28 / 22.01.07

Dirk's pornography comments

Let's get that in perspective. They were talking about what they missed, and (I think) Danielle asked if he missed "nookie", to which he replied "I miss my porno mags". He repeated it when asked to, then said "no, I'm joking", but that was the extent of the conversation.

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21:30 / 22.01.07

Incidentally, I know I say this every year, but going on Digital Spy is a salutory reminder of just why I love you guys so much.

21:54 / 22.01.07

Cleo's behaviour is becoming really quite bizarre, it's more than just payback.

I agree: I can certainly see the lampooning thing - as could Dirk, I think, after a minute or two of her 'Tiara' character - but it went beyond lampooning. As Dirk rightly noted, if he says or does something which is clearly making someone uncomfortable and they ask him to stop, he stops. Cleo didn't, but continued in 'I'm-sexually-predatory-do-you-see?' mode for far longer than mere lampooning required.

miss wonderstarr

06:09 / 23.01.07

I do know that older men doing the jokey flirt with young women can be nauseating

Women trying to be girly mates (and leading the bitching)with women half their age can also be embarrassing. I don't think Dirk or Cleo are above criticism in this respect ~ and on the other hand, the only alternative would be for the older members of the House to keep a reserved, proper distance. If you're part of a small, claustrophobic community that involves a few twentysomethings, I suppose you'd either have to join in the banter (which, in BB, often does involve jokes about sex and flirting) or stand accused of being stand-offish, cold and boring.

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