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"Heroes" Series 1 (US and Torrents edition)

 
  

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buttergun
15:42 / 02.05.07
I'm talking about Mouse's post about the Bible above, in reference to destroying the old to bring in the new...like I said, it's obvious they're taking inspiration from comic books. How could they not? Despite what Kring says. And there was a whole string of posts where people were arguing that they aren't -- the ideas being used are just natural for this type of storyline. I don't buy it, as there are way too many similarities. That being said, I still really like this show -- though I'm getting sick of NBC's overmarketing, in its attempt to make Heroes "the NBC Lost."
 
 
buttergun
15:44 / 02.05.07
Another thing is, they gave some "clues" toward the end of the episode, stuff that will probably pan out in the real narrative. IE, Sylar said something about Nathan Petrelli about to "sell out" the "mutant" population before he killed him, etc. Also we know Parkman will have a boy with powers, and that Parkman has a bloodlust in him that hasn't been hinted at in the normal storyline. Also, best of all, that annoying super-bitch Candice (the shapeshifter) will one day be killed and her powers absorbed by Sylar. Way to go Sylar!!

As for the actors playing Peter, Ando, and Sylar not showing up on Larry King...maybe because they were still filming? This week's episode made it clear those three have an important part to play in the events that will go down in NYC.
 
 
Spaniel
16:40 / 02.05.07
Yeah, I'm not going to read anything into their absence from that interview. It could be significant but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
 
Triplets
17:01 / 02.05.07
that annoying super-bitch

Careful there, buttergun.
 
 
Pooky Is Just My Pornstar Name
17:13 / 02.05.07
As for the actors playing Peter, Ando, and Sylar not showing up on Larry King...maybe because they were still filming? This week's episode made it clear those three have an important part to play in the events that will go down in NYC.

Nope, filming is finished and the cast have had their wrap party (season finale party). Thus, their abscence cannot be explained away by them filming for Heroes. Though of course, they could already be working on other projects, or simply be on vacation.
 
 
Spaniel
17:18 / 02.05.07
Or doing any number of other things, really.
 
 
buttergun
17:25 / 02.05.07
>>that annoying super-bitch

Careful there, buttergun.<<

I understand, but let's be real here (at least, as real as we can about fictional characters.) This lady gets her kicks from impersonating dead people to toy with the emotions of their loved ones, she gets off on breaking up families, and she's so cookie-cutter "bad" that you can't help but hate her. Hence, she deserves the "s-b" title.
 
 
Spaniel
17:51 / 02.05.07
I'm not sure you're gonna get any disagreement on her appallingness, as you say she's cookie-cutter bad, it's just that the word bitch isn't so nice and generally isn't tolerated on Barbelith.
 
 
Pooky Is Just My Pornstar Name
18:38 / 02.05.07
I'm not sure you're gonna get any disagreement on her appallingness, as you say she's cookie-cutter bad, it's just that the word bitch isn't so nice and generally isn't tolerated on Barbelith.

Just a little threadrot or drift on this. Buttergun is in the USA, I'm in Canada. A while back, while venting on the 'Urgh! Fuck!' thread, I called my neighbours "stupid fucking bitches". 'Bitch' in North America doesn't have the same cultural connotation as it does in the UK, I believe. Here, 'Bitch' is used as an insult, obviously, but is not considered as derogatory as "twat" or "cunt" which I've noticed that several Barbelithers have no issue with. I can't speak for Buttergun or Americans, of course, but it's a far more serious insult to be called, a "twat" or a "cunt" in Canada than a "bitch." My point being that before you jump down his back (as I was somewhat on the 'Urgh! Fuck!' thread), try and give a little latitude - What is a very derogatory insult in one country, is not so much in another.

I hope the above had some semblance of coherence. I've only had about 5 hrs of sleep, so my mind is less than acute.

Anyway, back to discussing Heroes...
 
 
buttergun
19:42 / 02.05.07
Thanks for that, Pooky. Also, I had no idea the "b word" was so derogatory in the UK. You're correct that here in the US, it's really just another curse word, whereas "cunt" is on a whole 'nother level. Here, the first one might get you slapped, but the second one will get you kicked in the crotch.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:47 / 02.05.07
I don't think I'm really sold on that. Partly because I don't think the reason it's unwise to use derogatory terms is because (as the above post seems to imply) you can get slapped for using them. Partly because I'm not sure how much the intention and the speaker's cultural context matters ~ I think it matters more whether it's offensive to a reader or listener. And partly because I don't think either of you have mentioned that the problem with "bitch" is it seems to single out someone's femaleness as part of the insult.

This is an appallingly-written post I'm afraid, but I hope you get my meaning.
 
 
buttergun
20:57 / 02.05.07
And the "c word" doesn't?? This thread has resuscitated a memory in which some co-workers discussed this very same topic. The women said they'd been called "b's" before, but never a "c" -- one of them even said it would be "unforgiveable" if someone called them that.

As for the UK/US differences, I knew something was up several years ago when the dark-haired lead from "Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels" appeared on Jay Leno and said that he (the lead) had called a photographer "see you next tuesday." I thought, jeez, that's pretty brutal. At the time I didn't realize it was a word used for both guys and girls over there.

As for Heroes, has anyone bothered to take the ridiculous "see which Hero you are" test on the NBC site? I haven't been there, just laughed out loud when they announced it during this week's episode. I can just imagine some kid somewhere unwittingly yelling, "I'm a Peter!!"
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:00 / 02.05.07
Well, at the risk completely derailing the thread, but I'm slightly curious about one thing. Is calling someone a "dick" offensive to men, then, as it's completely gender-based, as well?

Frequenting English/European dominant boards always shocks me due to the prevalent and vaguely accepted use of "cunt," something I even hesitant to type here in the US. Among my female friends, using "bitch" in casual conversation doesn't raise an eyebrow, but "cunt" could sever a friendship forever.

I guess, though, that wonderstarr is right and it's mainly an issue of the reader/viewer and whether or not they are offended by it. It reminds of the time that I went to England to visit design firms, and had lunch with Vaughn Oliver, and was trying to tell him that I had seen two of something using my index and middle finger. He finally told me to put my hand down and schooled me on the English version of our middle finger.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:06 / 02.05.07
I'm not claiming "cunt" isn't more deeply offensive to some people ~ I'm saying I think "bitch" tends to be offensive for the same reasons, but I agree, usually not to quite the same extent. But the reasons why it's a problem, to my mind, are the same: because it's making an insult specifically out of femaleness.

The argument you're advancing seems to me like picking a really offensive racial slur and then offering that as a justification for using a less offensive one, because it's not as bad as the first example. Whereas they're both working in the same way, but just carrying different weight and hate-power.

I know there are exceptions, like female friends might playfully banter "you bitch", but I think that's a different case like the use of the n-word among Black friends who all accept it as a neutral term ~ and I don't think that does much to modify the general rule.

I apologise for typing out the words cunt and bitch above; I don't like the first one in particular, and was in two minds about starring it out. I'm happy to censor myself in its use.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:07 / 02.05.07
Is calling someone a "dick" offensive to men, then, as it's completely gender-based, as well?


Not to get all eye-rolly, but I think the difference in the implication of "cunt" and "dick", their relative power and their cultural associations, might be down to like several millennia of gender imbalance and patriarchy.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:11 / 02.05.07
I think it's probably fair to say that there are different cultural connotations to words, even insults, in different places, and that we should as much give people the benefit of the doubt when we hear them say stuff that freaks us out just as much as we should make sure that we err on the side of caution when we're speaking ourselves. In this case, I'd say probably we should register that the word upsets some people and move on.

I'm a bit puzzled by the timeline stuff too - I don't understand how or why Sylar stayed alive if he hadn't absorbed Clares powers.

Oh hang on a minute. It's not Sylar is it who explodes. It's Peter. And he's got a really big face scar, as if from a sword. And Peter can already heal. Perhaps Peter decides to look like Sylar for some reason, absorbs the power of the illusion girl and is attacked by young Hiro but heals himself. Hiro decides that Sylar must have killed Clare to have survived, not realising that he's actually Peter. Hiro then deals with the consequences of all of this trying to work out how to keep her alive, not realising that she's actually still alive anyway. Sylar eats illusion girl brain, makes himself look like Nathan and watches Peter destroy New York. Peter goes into hiding. Nathan becomes president.

Perhaps the future can't be changed after all. Perhaps all of them are misguided. Perhaps the thing that the painter sees isn't the way to defeat Sylar, but Hiro stabbing Peter. Perhaps we've just seen the overarching plotline of the next five years.

I have to say, if that were the case, I'd be pretty gobsmacked. Pretty fucking gutsy move. Hence I've decided it can't be the case. It's too hard, and would involve Clare being out of the series for a long time as well.
 
 
thewalker
21:46 / 02.05.07
i guess its worth remembering that as enjoyable Heroes is, there hasent been one episode yet without some kindof continuity muck up, attention to detail has been less important than in other recent series....

as for the final. as good as a tidy sewing up of the current story line would be, i think they will come close but will be unable to resist a descent cliffhanger.
 
 
Hieronymus
21:53 / 02.05.07
Given that none of the actors know whether they're up for contract renewal, and that Tim Kring has said the show is a plot vehicle NOT a star vehicle, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Claire was taken out of the show permanently.

And isn't she doing some kind of music album sometime soon?
 
 
grant
03:49 / 03.05.07
perhaps i'm childish, but i like the terrorist bomb police state scary scary thing going on. i'm not sure if it counts as "gutsy," but i like that it's there.
 
 
Spaniel
06:45 / 03.05.07
i think they will come close but will be unable to resist a descent cliffhanger

As do I, I'm just not entirely convinced it won't come on the back of some rather satisfactory resolutions.

That said, I have been considering a similar, fatalistic scenario to the one Tom outlines above. There is a lot of unresolved, unexplained stuff in the last episode, and it's very unusual to leave the audience in the dark like that. Makes me think they might well get back to it in some way shape or form, and the most efficient way to do that would be to hold the dark future course.

For a show with some really clunky dialogue - and Mohinder - Heroes is really entertaining stuff, ain't it?
 
 
Not in the Face
07:37 / 03.05.07
Just saw this last night and spent most of the rest of the time wondering whether Claire had died, whether as was said up thread, Hiro had mistakenly attacked Peter morphed as Sylar and whether it is possible to change time.

One alternatve view of the strings connecting is not that they are the key points, but that they represent Hiro's knowledge of events. I think it is perhaps significant that Suresh moves the strings around when explaining to Sylar-Petrelli. Using the waitress as an example, I don't think her death was inevitable - if Hiro had perfect knowledge of say Linderman's powers and means to force him to heal the waitress then her death would have been avoided. However I suppose then the web of consequences would be unpredictable, hence Future Hiro's string. It also fits in with Linderman's ideas - that he needs to see all of Isaac's paintings to accurately predict the future - and even then they weren't the whole answer.

I was toying with the idea that the future was slowly changing. Hence Future Hiro through Peter had saved the cheerleader but the weight of history still chose the explosion and Sylar still survives. It will take something else to totally change history. But that gets quite fan wanky and probably a bit hard to explain in a show that has been deliberately obtuse about the hows and whys of causality and powers. However the argument that Peter somehow switched to look like Sylar and then was stabbed by Hiro is neater. Also might explain why there has been no appearance by Future Future Hiro, as he dies in 5 years time.

I did notice that last week Isaac gave the draft of the comic to the messenger presumably for printing but in the future it was sitting on his desk and then taken into the past by Hiro. Not sure how significant this is, but we know that Future Hiro had clearly not made the trip into the future as shown in the episode so presumably was unaware of the comic. Also having the answer be in a comic is quite apt. Perhaps the lesson for Hiro is to learn to slice rather than stab with his sword and behead Sylar, or indeed Peter.

As to the Matrix style stuff and the peter/Sylar battle happening off screen, given that its a show about Comic Heroes I think its perfectly acceptable for Future Hiro and Peter to dress in black to demonstrate their inner angst and anger. And a super powered fight is always difficult to portray without looking cheesy even with millions of dollars of special effects. This series is either light on those sort of costs or is deliberately eschewing them in favour of a more 'realistic' style and trying to do effects well when they happen - as has been said Nathan's flying is great as is Claire's healing. As such I'm happy that the action happened off screen because it might have looked quite crap otherwise.
 
 
buttergun
12:31 / 03.05.07
>>And a super powered fight is always difficult to portray without looking cheesy even with millions of dollars of special effects.<<

But it doesn't cost that much to stage a decent sword fight. Just watch any number of low-budgeted Hong Kong films. My issue was that they waited until the final few minutes to have any action (after building up to it for 50 minutes), and then all we saw was Hiro waving his sword around and some guys bloodlessly falling to the ground. To further dig it in, they even tried to make it more exciting with Peter's "I haven't had a good fight in years" line, which fell flat considering what came after.

I also don't think the alternate future will pan out for the show. More than likely everything will be worked out by the end of the season, and next year will be a new threat. The show seems to be patterned after Buffy in that way.
 
 
Not in the Face
13:37 / 03.05.07
True but thats hardly a criticism of the show, as it is of the general system of western cinema and tv general inability to take decent martial arts stunts from Hong Kong and other asian producers.

Also although things are better these days it would leave several gaps in the story. A supposedly bad-ass Peter would have to stand around doing very little while the screen is taken up with katana display. As it was I got the feeling he did most of the 'work'.

It also runs counter to the spirit of the show which has tried to keep things within a normal paradigm in that it is about 'normal' people trying to handle extra-ordinary events.

I doubt, indeed hope, in the regular show you will see Peter and Hiro so wantonly killing. It was shocking enough to see Hiro finish off the guard that we did see - it underlined how far they have moved from the characters we know and like. The future selves might be bad-ass but have become deeply scarred and unpleasant individuals. If the Hiro of episode one can become Future Hiro who kills so dispassionately, how much worse is the rest of the world? Watching them elegantly slaughter dozens of SWAT gets away from that key message and replaces it with video-game entertainment. Its interesting to note that the original script of the Matrix, Trinity and Neo didn't have an epic gun battle in the lobby. They killed a couple of guards with shuriken and moved on to the elevator-bomb. The scene was very much eye candy for people to say 'cool' to.

Even future Hiro and Peter presented as they were stretched that and I also got a vibe that this was very much a comic book 'what if' where all sorts of impossible things are allowed to be dreamt off. Or the Trek universe where the Federation is clearly evil and everyone wears black and cackles but done much better.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
13:42 / 03.05.07
What I got from the episode is that so far the dark future is the result of everything we have seen already, which is a little odd.

I understand that future Hiro likely made a mistake in thinking that Claire was the focal point for events that led up to the explosion, but it seems like he could have done some research. He obviously knew Bennet, so the question becomes was Claire dead when future Hiro talked to Peter on the subway, or was FH assuming she was dead?

I suppose it could be said the Hiro is immune from timeline changes that he instigates, so he had to find out from his past self that Peter saved Claire, but to Bennet and everyone else that is how it always worked. That gets a bit fan wanky, but has 'precedent' in various time travel stories I suppose (see the Quantum Leap episode where Sam thinks he failed to save Kennedy until Al tells him that in the original timeline Jackie was killed as well, so he saved her and changed history).

I like that when Sylar/Nathan was about to announce the extermination of the mutants he took off flying, that can ruin a career in politics right quick.

As far as the action sequences, the sword stuff was kind of weak, but I thought the people flying away from Peter was pretty cool. I think the fact that future Hiro is still kind of a wannabe was a neat bit. He is trying to be a bad as comic book Hiro in a bombed out future, how else is he supposed to dress? It would have been cool to see some real 4th dimensional combat though, where he sees the guards and then goes back in time and lets air out of their tires or something so they don't make it into work. Then when he and Peter arrive there is only 1 guy guarding the desk. That would have been cooler then the security guard Matrix double take.

But seriously though, in 5 years they still call the guy The Haitian?
 
 
Not in the Face
13:49 / 03.05.07
Re: the Haitian. It is a bit poor but then he has never been anything other than a plot device to allow non-mutants to get one over on mutants without having a common device that would totally skew the balance. I expect he will remain the Haitian.

Yeah, I also wanted to see Hiro do something like co-locate over two seconds and cut down all the guards 'simoultaneously', although the tires idea is even better.
 
 
grant
13:50 / 03.05.07
That's his superhero name. Duh.
 
 
Pooky Is Just My Pornstar Name
15:14 / 03.05.07
Given that none of the actors know whether they're up for contract renewal, and that Tim Kring has said the show is a plot vehicle NOT a star vehicle, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Claire was taken out of the show permanently.

Certainly possible, but I think unlikely. Claire is too popular a character. Also, Claire is the eye-candy for the younger demographic. Young girls that watch the show want to be her, while the boys just want her. 'Sides, what about the show's slogan from the start: "Save the cheerleader, save the world"? No, I think Claire will be with the show for at least another season.

And isn't she doing some kind of music album sometime soon?

Yes, Hayden Pantierre does have an music album coming out. But I don't think she's banking on that to be her future bread and butter just yet.
 
 
Spaniel
17:11 / 03.05.07
What I got from the episode is that so far the dark future is the result of everything we have seen already, which is a little odd.

I would substitute "odd" for "ominous". Future Hiro's plan appears to be complete bollocks and that means the threat faced by the Heroes is alive, well, and quite possibly insurmountable. I think this development keeps the tension suitably high going into the last two episodes.

My points above about Hiro's timeline web and the stress points where significant events/people intersect was more an attempt to sketch that we have been given genuine space to consider just why Hiro isn't God yet. I was more flagging up the signposting of his weaknesses than trying to present a complete theory.

And, I have to say, I agree with BG about the "good fight" line. I don't think it's at all controversial to suggest that a line like that, in a show like this, at that particular point in time, might produce in the audience an expectation of a payoff - and while I can understand why it didn't get much of one - I think it's inclusion was a bit of a mistep (or perhaps a tease of what's to come). Of course, I'm 100% aware of the point that Face raises above about the show being about people and, consequently, less about the super action.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:54 / 03.05.07
Just managed to watch this episode, and I came away thinking it was one of the best superhero stories I've ever seen on TV or in films. The "good fight" line can maybe be justified in the same way as Hiro's black outfit and Peter's Matrix coat ~ these are geeky guys who are now, almost self-consciously, styling themselves as bad-ass muthas in a Dark Future. I think there's an element of play and performance in it... almost a sense of theatre. That's a bit of a stretch as on another level I think the creators are trying, and succeeding admirably, at creating comic book style "cool moments" (just as they're doing very well at reproducing Watchmen's overlapping, ironically juxtaposed captions/voiceover and images). The Sylar/Peter stand-off, with both of them lighting up fists in opposing colours, was as kick-ass as something from Zenith Phase III, which I think is equally self-aware and referential, and whose snappy soundbite dialogue and grandiose splash pages also work both as a knowing tribute to superhero comics convention and fucking great stuff in their own right.

I can't really follow the timeline paradoxes, and probably we're not fully supposed to. I don't know if I much care. It's just totally enjoyable pop.

One thing I don't believe anyone's mentioned: it could be pure trivia, but the paintings in Nikki's strip bar (6.57 timer, for anyone watching on download) look very much like Sylar's painting of the White House at the end of episode 19: the same... I don't know, fauve colours?

They're probably just painted by Tim Sale, and there's probably no connection, but have a look. Or I'll try to screengrab them if I get obsessive.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:09 / 03.05.07


left: club, episode 20
right: Sylar's presidential painting, episode 19


I think I've got something there, though maybe it's coincidence.

Also: NYC takes that long before they even start to rebuild?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:46 / 03.05.07
I keep thinking Brunette!Claire reminds me of Nicola Roberts off of Girls Aloud, but I can't really get a fix on it.


 
 
grant
02:04 / 04.05.07
NYC takes that long before they even start to rebuild?

Well, it's 2007 now -- what's Ground Zero like?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
05:30 / 04.05.07
As far as I know (I was last there in 05) it looks like a fenced-off building site (construction, flat surface) that includes every block damaged in the event ~ that is, there's no rubble and no half-collapsed buildings around. It is definitely well into the process of rebuilding.

NYC Five Years After the Bomb looked more like Ground Zero in 2002, still wrecked, hung with flags, still shocked and mourning.

But I admit this is ambiguous. They're holding a ceremony, hence the flags. It did look as though NYC is in some kind of ruins, though.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:14 / 04.05.07
It was the whole city, after all, and potentially it would have been kept clear a little longer as people reeled from the millions of dead and tried to work out how to deal with the idea of building a new city on the place where so many died.
 
 
Spaniel
07:26 / 04.05.07
I can't really follow the timeline paradoxes, and probably we're not fully supposed to. I don't know if I much care.

I don't think we're supposed to either, at least, I don't think we're supposed to interrogate them to the degree that some of us might be tempted to. When it comes to narratives that include time travel my general rule of thumb is that, at some level, the plot will be flawed and/or cease to make sense.

On the "fight" line. I appreciate what you're saying, but I think my point still stands.
 
  

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