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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

"Heroes" Series 1 (US and Torrents edition)

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21:26 / 24.04.07

assuming he has a masterplan I would have thought his ideas for Linderman find their source in all the other fictional baddies who dream of a better world born in the ashes of the old. New York's role could quite easily be coincidental.

Agreed... wasn't this also the plot of Batman Begins? Hardly a unique motif, though I wouldn't say that makes it a bad one.

00:46 / 25.04.07

(see also the Bible

)

02:49 / 25.04.07

And, as people have mentioned many times, before Watchmen, the 60's Outer Limits had that episode with Robert Culp tranformed into an alien so as to unite humanity against an alien threat.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:22 / 25.04.07

Batman Begins was less about uniting humanity and more about wiping out a city that was too far gone to be rehabilitated.

Space of the Spoiler kind, just in case

So, who wants to bet that the secret of beating Sylar and stopping the bomb is in the comic Isaac sent to the publisher early on?

And yeah, while other works of fiction have used the same idea of uniting humanity through fear, the fact that Lindermann was part of a super group in the past who split up (along with Grandma Petrelli it seems) and he became powerful financially, and now wants to cause the destruction of New York to create world peace really smells of Watchmen. I am not complaining, mind, because it is great TV, it just seems a bit obvious.

18:28 / 25.04.07

Hmm, I'm not sure. It seems weird to be arguing against your position here, Elijah, in light of me making a hoo-hah about pixie girl being Purple Manified, but I'm really not convinced.

I just don't see anything in Linderman - his powers, his membership of a club of superbeings, his wealth and influence, his plans for New York - as being anything that couldn't have evolved outside the glare of Watchmen. This is obvious, stock stuff, which doesn't need a big dose of inspiration to get off the ground. I mean, so Linderman's got superpowers, so what? He's on a show about people with superpowers. So he's wealthy and powerful and has a masterplan, again so what? Aren't all similarly ambitious fictional characters wealthy and powerful, and don't they all have masterplans? So his plan includes New York. Big deal. New York is (arguably) the cultural and (almost certainly) the financial capital of America and it plays very well in fiction for a whole slew of reasons. Okay, yeah, he was a member of a pseudo-super team (which I strongly suspect included Ma Patrelli), but is that really something you'd need to read a 300 page GN to come up with? I'd suggest not.

I see Linderman and the plot he's been thrown into as straightforward off-the-shelf concepts, which have been customised to fit a melodrama about superheroes, basically.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's inconceivable that Watchmen was unduly influential on this show's direction, I just think it's quite possibly, and plausibly not the case.

I should stress at this point that it doesn't make much difference to me whether the show is borrowing from Watchmen or not. I'm just detailing how it seems to me. I'm happy to wrong.

*I do appreciate that there are other elements of the show that very obviously reference Watchmen, but for one reason or another, that I won't bother to go into here, I don't think they make Linderman's role in the plot any more likely to be derivative

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

19:48 / 25.04.07

I think my feelings about it are mostly influenced by the fact that (so far) Lindermann seems to be plotting this whole thing for the good of mankind. Where as a Lex Luther might be rich and sometimes have super powers, and also plan to destroy NY, he would almost always have some kind of personal stake in it (I know, I will flatten NY at then buy it on the cheap!).

I think until we know more nothing definitive can be said one way or the other. I do see your points about it being fairly standard tropes which are being used, although once the idea of an old generation and new generation of heroes came up it rang my Watchmen bells.

17:48 / 26.04.07

Slaps head!

I can't believe I've only just realized that Thompson actually is played by Eric Roberts. I thought the bloke just looked like him.

I love Eric Roberts.

18:43 / 26.04.07

Is anyone reading the "novel" - the comic strip on the NBC website? It has been revealing a lot of the Petrelli - Linderman backstory, and the latest one is starting to explain Future Hiro and 'Save the cheerleader, save the world'. It might not be absolutely necessary to read in order to enjoy the series, but it's giving parallel stories which fill in a lot of gaps.

18:50 / 26.04.07

For those that are interested, the Heroes comics are located here.

19:55 / 26.04.07

Slaps head also!

Thanks for the link, it never occurred to me. It was discussed briefly upthread IIRC.

20:47 / 26.04.07

No worries at all. It is upthread (page 14 i think) but I figured the link would be handy.

08:24 / 27.04.07

Interesting tidbits aside, those comics are horribly written.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:30 / 27.04.07

But Boboss what isn't there to like about the web comics?

Aside from the fact that I hate pages that want to maximize my browser for me, fucks with my dual monitors.

The Days of Future Hiro comic was alright I suppose, although had it been stated yet that

SPOILER for those not reading the comics...maybe

Sylar is the exploding man? I figured they were keeping that in question intentionally, unless it will be revealed in the next episode, it seemed like an odd choice.

16:51 / 27.04.07

Yeah, I think I overstated the case there. Some of it's okay, but a lot isn't.

miss wonderstarr

07:22 / 28.04.07

I'd got the impression ages ago that the reason for saving the cheerleader was so Sylar couldn't regenerate, but with all these gaps in the series screening, and my poor memory, I'm not sure if it was spelled out.

I felt Linderman's plan was very probably deliberately lifted from Watchmen. I've never seen another science fiction or superhero film that so explicitly echoes Ozymandias' plan to deliberately kill a specific percentage of the world's population in order to unite humanity in fear and awe of some outside threat. Other fictions may well be based on a similar idea, but this seemed an extremely close parallel. Given that and the earlier motifs about watchmaking, and the fact that Tim Sale and Jeph Loeb are both closely involved in the show, I don't really buy the "Producer Tim Kring has never picked up a comic in his life! Any similarities to any comic are totally coincidental" theory.

(I'm totally caricaturing that line of argument, of course ~ sorry. I've just heard that comment more than once, and I don't think it carries much weight that Kring supposedly doesn't know anything about superhero comics, and just happened upon some common archetypes and themes).

miss wonderstarr

07:26 / 28.04.07

I kind of assumed the "timeline" was going to provide the key to stopping Sylar... as it seems to depict events happening as a consequence of each other, and the intersecting lines represent possible alternatives depending on various outcomes.

09:17 / 28.04.07

I felt Linderman's plan was very probably deliberately lifted from Watchmen.

Yeah, this has been percolating in speshul brane for the last few days and I've come to much the same conclusion as Elijah and your good self. Whether Kring reads comics or not, I find it very hard to believe that he's been insulated from Watchmen when his principal co-creators and the bulk of his writing staff clearly haven't, and given that fact I suspect its influence has been felt here.

Don't bother me none, though. It's similarity to similar plots in other well known works of fiction makes it an entirely forgivable steal. This is pretty ubquitous stuff, nothing to be precious about.

miss wonderstarr

11:32 / 28.04.07

No, I would see it as a tribute instead of a rip-off, but it might have some effect on how a Watchmen film is going to be received, if it comes out within a couple of years of a hit superhero TV show based around the same masterplan.

Keith, like a scientist

02:30 / 01.05.07

'Heroes of Future Past' was way geektastic tonight. Future shit always seems to work really well in science fiction and comics, doesn't it? You really get to play with the characters and throw continuity out the window for a bit... The twist was mighty cool, and the 9/11 echoes were really well done.

Also: isn't the Nathan Petrelli take-off effect like 10x anything you've seen in any Superman movie?

07:40 / 02.05.07

wowzer,

EPISODE 20 SPOILERS

last week it was watchmen, now its xmen all over (the mutants must all hide/fight/be extincted.

but.......if hiro jumps 5 tears to the future, a five year older hiro would not be there (since he had jumped to the future). so therefore we have timeline realities converging/crossing over. if this is the case why is it still important to go back, since there will probably be many other realities existing, and sure, you could say you would want to save your own reality. but. but with timelines crossed, how can you be sure which reality you are changing?

and well done wonderstarr, good reading, wrapped up pretty well withinthe first ten minutes of this episode though..... i did suspect the sylar twist though.

08:55 / 02.05.07

I think you shouldn't bother interrogating the time travel thing too deeply, you'll just be disappointed. That said, what we did get was a rough explanation of the limits of Hiro's powers, which were demonstrated earlier in the series when he tried to save memory woman. It would seem that there are only certain points in history where you can make a difference. These points, as MW so brilliantly observed last week, were represented by the crossing of the strings. Basically, if you want to change stuff you have to acheive something very specific at a very specific time and discovering what that thing is takes time and energy, hence memory girl getting killed despite Hiro's efforts.

In other news, so it's finally confirmed (and I'm very very tempted to shout I TOLD YOU SO), that the Haitian is the power blocker.

Lastly, I'm intrigued by the possibility that Heroes is going to end this series with a very clean slate, or with a brand spanking new direction signposted as I'm assuming all this New York gets blown up stuff is going to get dealt with by the close of episode 22. An exciting possibility given that we hardly ever see anything approaching a complete story over one season these days.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:33 / 02.05.07

hence memory girl getting killed despite Hiro's efforts

Wasn't it more that he gave up trying to stop her being killed by Sylar once he found out she had a brain tumour and was going to die shortly thereafter anyway?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:34 / 02.05.07

To clarify: you're right about what Hiro's trip to the diner in the past means symbolically, but it doesn't add much to our understanding of cosmic time travel rules. Not that we need one...

11:41 / 02.05.07

>>>In other news, so it's finally confirmed (and I'm very very tempted to shout I TOLD YOU SO), that the Haitian is the power blocker.<<<

Was this ever in question? That's been clear since his first appearance.

11:52 / 02.05.07

I seem to remember that it was in question, yes. I also remember having to explain just why I thought to question it was a bit silly.

Not sure I can be bothered to dig up a link.

12:14 / 02.05.07

I think I questioned the Haitian thing, but not whether it was so, more because I wanted to know how that fitted with his memory-wiping ability when that became apparent. But consider me TOLD if you like, hehe.

Also

Spoilers,

probably

Yes, this had the X-men, particularly influences of Days of Future Past (and a hundred other things, I'm sure) written all over it. I was expecting Suresh to suggest some sort of legacy virus as a "cure" for the mutations, but I'm glad he didn't. I just hope that isn't the last Peter/Sylar battle we'll see.

Any thoughts on where alternate Peter got that nasty scar? I'm off to read the "comic" now.

Pooky Is Just My Pornstar Name

13:14 / 02.05.07

I just hope that isn't the last Peter/Sylar battle we'll see.

I think we're going to get at least one more battle between the two. My guess, the next time they fight, it'll be in the season finale. Incidentally, the cast of Heroes was on Larry King live last week-end, everyone was there except for the actors that play Peter, Sylar, and Ando. I'm not sure if that means anything as that the rest of the cast didn't mention their abscence, nor did Larry. Interestingly enough, the actor that plays Issac, the painter, was there. They talked about how even though his character was killed off, he still might return for flashback eps. Perhaps the producers plan on killing off Sylar and Peter in season finale? That'd be the one season arc finished right there. Ando could go too, as the collateral damage done in by the battle between Sylar and Peter. If that's the case, perhaps the actors are pissed at being killed off and decided not to attend the Larry King show? The actor that plays Issac was very good natured about his character's demise and said that it wasn't anything personal on the part of the producers, simply that his character's storyline had reached its natural conclusion.

At the time of the LK show, all the actors confessed that their contracts hadn't been renewed. So even though Heroes has been green lighted for season 2, their contracts hadn't been extended. In other words, they didn't know if they'd still be employed on the show.

13:22 / 02.05.07

I suppose it is possible that Peter'll get a scar for real over the course of the next few eps and we'll find out that way.

I suspect he won't, however. Sure, it's alright for dark future episodes but it ruins his pretty face, dunnit, and I wouldn't've thought the creators would want to that.

On the power dampening thing, yeah, at the time I was trying to reconcile the Haitian's abilities within a standard psychic powers package. Seems like that's out the window now, though, as it's pretty clear that the Haitian isn't conventionally psyhic in that he doesn't appear to be telepathic in any way shape or form. I have some other theories but they're so mired in coddy cod cod pseudo science I can't bother arsed to go into 'em.

13:24 / 02.05.07

xpost

13:26 / 02.05.07

I thought it was implied that Peter got the scar from when he "exploded" in NYC. There were a lot of things left vague in this underwhelming episode.

For one, how is it that none of the future people -- especially Hiro -- realized they were in an "alternate" future...or at least that "Past Hiro" was from an alternate past? I mean, when Future Hiro met Past Hiro in the beginning of the episode, shouldn't he have realized that this hadn't happened before? If Past Hiro was to become Future Hiro, then Future Hiro would've remembered encountering his past self there in the loft. Yet no one acknowledged this.

It seemed to me that the episode was just something the producers thought would be cool, and to a point it was. But really, it had no implication to the show at large, something I already realized last week. We already know they're trying to prevent NYC from exploding. Also, was it just me, or was the episode just a lot of buildup, with everything coming to a head in the final 3 minutes? And what was up with that ultra-lame "action" scene? Peter and Future Hiro coming on all Matrix, taking on the guards...yet all we see is Hiro waving his sword and some dude jumping off a trampoline in front of Peter.

Also, I had a hard time grasping what had happened in this alternate reality's "save the cheerleader" history. I figured that she'd been killed by Sylar, hence Peter's scar -- as he'd never met her, so never gained her healing powers. Yet she turned up alive, etc...how was this explained? If it was, I didn't catch it.

As for the Watchmen/X-Men stuff, I'm sick of people rushing to defend the producers. Look, when two super-powered/comic book-type characters discuss the "benevolent" destruction of NYC -- for peaceful purposes -- yeah, it's Watchmen, not the goddamn bible. Even Entertainment Weekly has noticed it. But like someone else said, I prefer to look at it as a tribute.

EW mention of comic “similarities”

14:08 / 02.05.07

Not sure anyone was defending anyone, BG. In my case I was saying it like I saw it at the time, I have subsequently changed my mind, however. Not sure what the Bible has to do with anything.

I think it is worth noting that I did object to your use of the term "rip-off", not because I felt that the show needed a white knight to come to its rescue particularly, but because I think its a term heavily overladen with negative connotations and that its use failed to register the widespread use of the plot template in question, a factor which I believe makes this particular crib something of a non-issue. MW complicated the matter further by throwing the word "tribute" into the mix.

14:15 / 02.05.07

Also, seriously, who cares what EW thinks? That is to say, I'm interested in any good arguments they might make, but just because they think there's similarities between two texts doesn't mean I should necessarily give two hoots.

14:18 / 02.05.07

Also, I had a hard time grasping what had happened in this alternate reality's "save the cheerleader" history. I figured that she'd been killed by Sylar, hence Peter's scar -- as he'd never met her, so never gained her healing powers. Yet she turned up alive, etc...how was this explained? If it was, I didn't catch it.

I thought that was odd too. So much doubled back on itself it got mightily confusing, even with the context of this Future timeline.

Didn't they tell Present Hiro and Ando that the city was nuked due to Sylar having killed Claire and taken her power? And thus the heroes (or Hiro) couldn't kill him? The whoooole reason why Future Hiro told Peter "Save the cheerleader, save the world"?

But then later they reveal that Peter was the one who nuked NYC? And that Claire is still alive?

14:31 / 02.05.07

I think the main thing we can take from all the vagueness is that Future Hiro is quite possibly wrong about a whole bunch of stuff. The consequence being that his plan to save the world is seriously flawed (because he's wrong about the constituent elements).

However I suspect Isaac's plan, on the other hand, isn't flawed at all.

14:32 / 02.05.07

I think the main thing we can take from all the vagueness is that Future Hiro is quite possibly wrong about a whole bunch of stuff. The consequence being that his plan to save the world is seriously flawed (because he's wrong about the constituent elements).

This also functions to further demonstrate the limits of Hiro's time travel antics.

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