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Big Brother 2006

 
  

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Jub
09:15 / 29.06.06
you guys are so funny.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 29.06.06
Not in the scrotal region, I hope, John and Jub.

Notes:

1) I'm interested by the guilty-until-proven-innocent tone you take, here. You have set the allowable values for smugness, and unless G.'s tally with yours, his usage is somehow... what, offensive? Certainly something that makes you need to speak out.

2) You complain about Ganesh "harping on" about the sexuality of the housemates, and yet actually the provide a way for people to continue describing straight housemates ("the straights"). So, it's actually OK to describe people by their sexuality, as long as you use a term which you have approved.

3) If your objection is the description of anyone as smug, since this what you want to be explained or denied, where does sexuality even come into it?

4) Cherielabombe has also used the term Team SmugHet, also apparently without explaining it fully. Should she also be explaining her usage as well, or is it just the gayers?

So, let's start again. How about:

"Regarding this new Team SmugHet thing. I think the first Team SmugHet were identifiable as such because (a), (b) and (c). I'm not seeing any of these behaviours so far with this group. Is it fair to describe them as smug?"

Run that past your partner and your mum, obvs, but subject to approval it might have appeared less confrontational, ja?
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:27 / 29.06.06
Team DullHet?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:45 / 29.06.06
Well, I think again you'd probably have to explain precisely why they were dull. It's the combination of adjective + sexuality which is problematic here.

To which viewpoint, incidentally, I'm sympathetic. If a grouping of gay men in the House became known as Team ScreamyGay, I'd agree that if none of the members were actually immediately screamy the term would be open to challenge for the assumptions it is making. I would, I hope, agree in a comprehensible and less ad hominem way, however.
 
 
Sniv
09:46 / 29.06.06
I ran it past mum, and she said I wasn't talking to you anyway. So nyer-nyer (is there an emoticon for putting your thumb on your nose, making a raspberyy noise and wiggling your fingers?).

Really, I don't care if G labels the HMs based on sexualuty, but I didn't feel that the 'smug' really fit, and was a bit pointed.

You have set the allowable values for smugness, and unless G.'s tally with yours, his usage is somehow... what, offensive? Ugh, I really really hate this line of arguement you always take. If something annoys me then surely I am the only person that can say how much it annoys me? Just as you have taken it upon yourself to reply to my comment to Ganesh.

You have set the allowable values for me finding offence or annoyance at something, and unless mine tallies with yours, my annoyance is somehow... what, offensive? Sorry to be so facetious here, but if you can take offence at something I don't care about, is it not feasable that I should take offence at something you think is okay? And I'm not saying you must comply with my demands!!1!, I just think it's unnecessary. If you don't agree then ignore me, continue to use the phrase, fine.

So yeah: Regarding this new Team SmugHet thing. I think the first Team SmugHet were identifiable as such because (a), (b) and (c). I'm not seeing any of these behaviours so far with this group. Is it fair to describe them as smug?

Thanks Haus, I think I might make up all my posts by just C+Ping your responses...
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:49 / 29.06.06
They're not very Team-like either. Where's their uniform?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 29.06.06
You're welcome to own your annoyance, of course, John, but that wasn't what you were doing there. You were demanding that somebody else change their behaviour without providing a coherent picture of why what they were doing was bad. If you had said that it annoyed you, that would have been different. What you actually said was:

So, unless you want to explain yourself fully, could you knock it on the head a bit?

That is, you did not say

If you don't agree then ignore me, continue to use the phrase, fine.

But rather something entirely unlike that, before then hopelessly fudging whether you were (whatever state underlies your reasoning for wanting this "knocked on the head" was, which I fear was not explained fully) about the mentioning of people's sexuality or the mentioning of people's sexuality in close proximity to the mentioning of another characteristic, and thus what G. needed to "explain himself" about.

So, yes. You have set the allowable values for smugness. Your annoyance or not is not at issue, because you never mentioned it. That's why I was trying to work out why exactly you were making the demand that Ganesh either i) explain himself or ii) knock it (for some value of it) on the head.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:04 / 29.06.06
I agree with John that SmugHet is no longer an especially accurate monicker, particularly since the team members have changed (in oh so many ways) and none of them are officially coupled-up - or even that smug - any more.

However, the above bickering threadrot is tiresome and unnecessary, IMVFHO. Could you possibly take it to PM so that the rest of us can continue discussing Big Brother?
 
 
Sniv
10:20 / 29.06.06
So, unless you want to explain yourself fully, could you knock it on the head a bit?

Well, I tried to put it as nicely and with as little confrontation as possible. Let me try and explain a little: So, unless you want to explain yourself fully - this, I though, gives Ganesh an out. Maybe he's got some excellent reasons why the HM's are so smug. I don't watch the live feed as much as he does, so maybe he knows more than I do, or has seen some stuff that's not filtered through to the highlights. could you - is a question, not a demand like you say. 'Will you' is more demanding, I guess. knock it on the head is another, less confrontational way of saying stop it, but, it's followed by a bit wich is even more non-confrontational. As a pitiful n00b, I was quite prepared for Ganesh to give me a list of reasons, and tell me to bog off. Which is fair enough, it's more his board than it is mine.

Also, I thought I was following the fairly standard Barbelith method for challenging speech you find unnacceptable. Heck, I've had it directed at me enough. Honestly, I feel like you're saying that I can't challenge people when I find something that they say offensive or annoying, especially if the rest of the board seem not to care too much about it.

I disagree with you and your objections to my objection, but a) I'm at work, so can't give this any more time right now and b) I don't want to argue with you, it's just not worth it at all. It's probably my communication skillz, but I'm never able to convice you of my point in these silly little arguements, so you can have this one, it's on me.
 
 
Sniv
10:22 / 29.06.06
Sorry Whiskey, I didn't see your post 'til I posted. Consider it done.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:23 / 29.06.06
I have to say that Imogen was more interesting during the milky-milky challenge than she's been in the past two weeks. For a too brief time she lost that glassy stare. She had some moments of high cunning.

I'm still not a fan of her, but credit where credit's due.

Things are getting too liquid in there for any long-term factions to develop currently. The cattiness and back-stabbery ensures that no-one really trusts anyone else enough to keep a team cohesive. Imogen and Mikey alone don't really constitute a team. Glyn's all over the shop (and has been since the beginning).

Naturally we can expect to see lines being drawn between "old" and "new" housemates when the Crisis on Infinite (well, Duel) Houses ends and the two groups are unified (assuming more than one new housemate crosses over with Aisleyne).

Nikki, and possibly Imogen, will most certainly (on past form) judge the newcomers as less deserving of staying in the house (ie "We were here first.").
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:26 / 29.06.06
Pretty much actually your response to VelvetVandal's comments also, WP, which were picked up and discussed in an informative fashion. I'm not sure that your desire to limit the discussion of Big Brother to a particular set of actions you find desirable is more valid than, say, my desire to tease out the sense behind what seemed at first to be a nonsensical request. Now that John has asked a comprehensible question - that is, what is it about this grouping that identifies them as smug - I'm sure that that question can be answered, which will, conveniently, also bring us back to discussion of Big Brother. No need to thank me for getting the thread back on topic, WP; you're welcome.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:40 / 29.06.06
Just mcquckly, though:

Honestly, I feel like you're saying that I can't challenge people when I find something that they say offensive or annoying, especially if the rest of the board seem not to care too much about it.

I think that's based on a misreading of what I actually said, and also of what you actually said, which is more startling. If you'd started out by saying that you found something Ganesh had said offensive or annoying, rather than that you thought a particular (incoherently explained) action was "unnecessary", that might be a fair reading. As it is, my work with you has helped you to express your emotions, which are of course personal and subjective, if in this case a bit weird, and to hone your enquiry to "what is it about this group of people on Big Brother that makes them seem smug to you, Ganesh?" - that is, a specific and ontopic question about Big Brother. Go me.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:14 / 29.06.06
The smugness has been kinda beaten out of them over the past few weeks. In the first few weeks they obviously felt themselves to be in an unassailable position. But as the weeks went by and they were whittled down they've realised that the GBP is against them. The loss of confidence that began with the "Get Grace out!" chanting is pretty much complete now.

It might explain why Imogen has been so morose this past week or so. Every time there's been an evicition it's been people who were part of her "group" who've gone. It's possible that she's realised that this could be due to something her group was doing and has intentionally stepped into the background to avoid trouble.

Or, y'know, she could be missing her friends.

Or she could have just realised that the person she's closest to in the house has all of the personality of a fig roll.

Or (more likely) something else entirely.

Whatever the reason there's no excuse for you all not to Vote Aisleyne.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:52 / 29.06.06
But as the weeks went by and they were whittled down they've realised that the GBP is against them.

Which is interesting - how do you adjust your strategy when you have no real way to judge what is or is not working with the ultimate jury, except by whether or not one of you is booted each week? It makes any strategy change a high-risk one. Possibly the problem is that without overwhelming numerical superiority, and even with considering that nominations are anonymous, you cannot guarantee that you'll be able to control who is nominated, and I suspect that a lot of people on Big Brother walk in assuming that, actually the GBP will love what they're offering, and probably don't have a well-developed fallback plan - especially when they are to a great extent at the mercy of the editors... Imogen only really has to spend a couple of hours a week being Imogen, really...
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:27 / 29.06.06
Imogen only really has to spend a couple of hours a week being Imogen, really...

I suppose, assuming that she times her "on" moments so that no-one else is doing anything of interest so that the cameras would be directed to her.

If that is the case then one could hypothesise that whatever she is doing when "on" is not of a level considered interesting enough (by Endemol) to make it the highlight show.

Which is interesting - how do you adjust your strategy when you have no real way to judge what is or is not working with the ultimate jury, except by whether or not one of you is booted each week? It makes any strategy change a high-risk one.

Well, it should be possible to use the BB shows from years gone by to help determine behaviour which is likely to go down well with the public. As you rightly say they have to base any major change on who is getting evicted.

(Of course, that does give them a lot of credit and assumes they've done some level of research).

One thing that does seem to work though is fading into the background. It can be risky because if its done too much then there is the risk of other housemates/GBP tagging you as boring and getting rid of you in favour of more interesting housemates. If there is a lot of friction going on it does mean that nomination can be avoided as housemates go for the people that aggravate them and GBP goes for the "bad" housemate. Housemates generally seem to have goldfish memories and nominate on what's happened recently rather than past offences (although maybe I think that because they can't use the same reasons again and again for nominating).
 
 
Peach Pie
16:16 / 29.06.06
He's a nice guy, but a nice guy who is, according to the reported psychometric testing, not very emotionally intelligent at all. We can speculate (and have speculated) that this is most manifest in Pete's relationships with women, specifically the mixed messages he sends out.

Hmm... certainly he scores low in terms of clarifying his intentions toward said girls, and the ability to clarify seems to be a cornerstone of emotional intelligence. But it was evident from his relationship with Lisa that he engages in meaningless flirting without wanting to take it further. I should have thought it would be obvious by now that he doesn't actually fancy any of the girls there. In addition, he's taken in the outside world. If Lea and co think they have such a deep bond with him, how can they fail to have noticed that?

Perhaps it was remiss of me to characterise them as strange. But I do find their unwilling to accept that things that Pete has made clear enough puzzling. he's the one person who shows genuine reluctance to name names in the nomination booth. it seems that the fact that he actually *likes* his housemates is enough to turn him into an objecct of reverence. and that's odd.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
17:56 / 29.06.06
Anyone else think that the fun quota on this thread has dropped a little.

And 'Nesh explained the hold smughet thing a while ago? Hasn't the term just evolved to fill a new group, in the way the Jungle Cat's continued after founding leader thingy (Vince?) left. Victor - his name was Victor!

The other side of the argument is that the people who made team smughet smug and all hetty have been evicted, leaving thier respective other halfs to be smugish. Though the pete and aslan inclusion doesn't really stand up for me. Maybe the smugness of the group will be dilouted by the inclusion of these two wonderful beasts?
 
 
Ganesh
18:25 / 29.06.06
Hmmm, Ganesh, I'm afraid I have to take issue with your 'smug-het' comment there. I thought the reason why the first smug-het group were labelled thusly was because a) they coupled up at the first opportunity b) would spend all night snogging on the live feed and c) were confident that their sexuality and attractiveness would see them safe from evictions.

I'm not sure that I specified a), b) and c) the first time I coined the term. I recall it was about assembling a core power-bloc via heterosexual pair-bonding then 'allowing' others (heterosexual singles) to associate with that core group. I don't thi-i-ink I specified "at the first opportunity", "snogging on the live feed" or perceived confidence as defining features.

So I'm not quite sure where you're getting all that from.

I don't see this at all in the group that you specify. So, unless you want to explain yourself fully, could you knock it on the head a bit?

Could you knock yourself on the head a bit? Or shall I explain myself fully?

My "harping on" would, in this instance, appear to consist of a single comment - unless you're counting my earlier "harping on", which I thought I'd fully explained at the time. That comment was

... is anyone else faintly depressed to see the White Queen and Saint Pete making up a new Team SmugHet, along with Imogen, Mikey and Glyn?

You're perfectly correct to state that these individuals have not (yet) coupled up. Imogen and Mikey, possibly. Pete is, as we know, asexual. Aisleyne's heterosexual but not especially smug. Glyn is heterosexual and, IMHO, starting to accelerate up the Smug Curve with alarming speed.

But no, essentially this power-bloc is different from the last power-bloc in that coupledom is not a prerequisite for the core group (unless we decide the increasingly-coupley Imogen and Mikey are the core group). When I said "making up a new Team SmugHet", I don't think I meant this as "an identical Team SmugHet to the last one, fulfilling John the Exploding Boy's a), b), c) criteria". I meant to emphasise possible similarities to the last large, heterosexual power-bloc in the House. And there are similarities.

I don't think it's really necessary to keep harping on about the sexuality of the housemates. I mean, call 'em "the straights" or something if you must define them by sexuality, but I don't see where the smugness come into it.

I'm sure you don't think it's "necessary". Big Brother isn't "necessary". Typing a post on the Internet isn't "necessary".

More pertinent (than your essentially meaningless use of "necessary") would be whether the sexuality of the individuals concerned is relevant - and I think it is. I'm well aware that it's generally unusual to comment on people being heterosexual/straight - it's just the default, innit? normality? - but I don't think the sexualities of those concerned are merely 'background'. I think they're a huge factor in the House, pivotal to the way power-blocs form and dissolve. I'm not 'defining' people solely by their sexualities, but in the case of Big Brother, I think sexuality is an enormous factor in how the House behaves.

You may well disagree, but I think you'd be wrong. I'm not sure that I'd feel sufficiently entitled to demand that you "explain yourself fully" or claim you were "harping on".

(ps, I don't want to start a war here, I just needed to say that)

It was "necessary" for you to say that, was it? You didn't just want to?

This reminds me of the problems with the Het 101 thread. We're unused to heterosexuality being interrogated - or even commented upon as in any way relevant to anything. It's the normal by which abnormal is measured, the statistical mean.

I'm terribly worried now that if, in using the phrase "Team SmugHet" once in howevermanypagesit'sbeen, I'm "harping on", responding to you at length really does constitute a "war". Shall I just shut up?
 
 
Ganesh
18:41 / 29.06.06
Really, I don't care if G labels the HMs based on sexualuty, but I didn't feel that the 'smug' really fit, and was a bit pointed.

You may not care if I draw attention to the Housemates' sexuality (I'm not sure I've indelibly 'labelled' them any more than I've labelled Pete based on his saintliness or Aisleyne based on a member of New X Men) but you explicitly "don't think it's really necessary" for me to "keep harping on" about their sexuality. This suggests to me that your "explain yourself fully" ire is about rather more than my single use of the word "smug" here.

I think there are similarities between the power-bloc I saw forming and the previous power-bloc I had labelled "Team SmugHet". Naturally there are differences (the fact that they're not all coupled up, for a start) and I concede that it would have been more accurate of me to say

is anyone else faintly depressed to see the White Queen and Saint Pete making up a new team which is a bit like the one I previously labelled Team SmugHet but which is also different in several ways, along with Imogen, Mikey and Glyn?

I'm not sure my comparison-drawing, lazy as it might arguably have been, was "harping on" and I'm a little surprised at the "fully explain yourself" or "knock it on the head" tone of the post that followed. Are you sure you're not also pissed off because making mention of straight people's sexuality is novel and faintly threatening to you?
 
 
Ganesh
19:04 / 29.06.06
"what is it about this group of people on Big Brother that makes them seem smug to you, Ganesh?"

Okay, this is a rather less aggressive phrasing of the question (and yes, I did consider the previous "harping on"/"explain yourself fully" stuff aggressive) and it's a fair point. I was comparing the newly-forming group - Mikey, Imogen, Glyn, Aisleyne and Pete - to a previous grouping - Mikey, Imogen, Sezer, Grace, Lisa. In doing so, I used the shorthand of "a new Team SmugHet" because that's what I called the previous group, and I was drawing comparison with that group.

In answer to the question, I don't think this group is particularly smug. That'd be one difference between this and the last grouping. Another would be the fact that they're not coupled up (with the possible exception of Mikey and Imogen, who are evolving into a couple, albeit not an explicitly sexualised one).

Similarities: they're heterosexual (and I think this is relevant; I think the major Big Brother power-blocs are, by and large, heteronormative - although the fact that there are rarely more than two non-heterosexual people in the House at any one time is obviously a factor). They're young: as with the Golden Age Team SmugHet (apologies for harpery), they're in their teens and twenties. They seem (or, at least, seemed when last I watched) to be teeing up Richard as a common foe. This last obviously doesn't apply to all concerned - Pete's not a Dickie-hater, and I don't think Aisleyne is - but I'd anticipate a gradual hardening/bonding of the group against him. I think Imogen and Mikey, possibly Glyn, will attempt to stoke the Dickie-hate in the others.
 
 
Ganesh
19:24 / 29.06.06
Secret Goldfish on Saint Pete:

But it was evident from his relationship with Lisa that he engages in meaningless flirting without wanting to take it further.

I'm not sure that that was evident; I suspect Pete would be surprised to hear his behaviour labelled "flirting". He'd probably claim he was just being friendly, like he is with his mates (and with insects). Whatever we call it, Pete's behaviour with Lisa isn't necessarily generalisable to others. We behave differently with different people, after all, particularly where sexual attraction is concerned.

I should have thought it would be obvious by now that he doesn't actually fancy any of the girls there.

I think a big part of the problem is that it's not obvious. Lisa aside, Pete hasn't been particularly explicit with anyone. Nothing is explicit, nothing is obvious. He's shared a bed with Nikki, engaged in bathroom snoggery and agreed to go on a date with her when they leave the House. Hardly "obvious" signals that he doesn't fancy her.

Pete's also said, early on, that he can be attracted to someone but take months to get around to acting on this. This rather muddies the waters in terms of his behaviour: if he's not jumping on someone's bones, it doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't fancy them. By his own account, he's slow-burn.

In addition, he's taken in the outside world. If Lea and co think they have such a deep bond with him, how can they fail to have noticed that?

Possibly because he hasn't made that explicit either? One of the features of this year's BB was supposedly that all the Housemates were single (Suzie being an exception). Do we know for sure that Pete thinks he's "taken"? As M LeWeaving pointed out, Pete's 'girlfriend's tabloid interview was equivocal. It's also worth pointing out that agreeing to a date is not standard behaviour for those flagging themselves up as "taken".

Perhaps it was remiss of me to characterise them as strange. But I do find their unwilling to accept that things that Pete has made clear enough puzzling.

I think you're overstating "clear enough". I think one central feature of Pete (and quite possibly the reason he scores low on emotional intelligence) is that, when it comes to intimate relationships, nothing is "clear enough". The line between friendship and more-than-friendship is werry werry blurry.

it seems that the fact that he actually *likes* his housemates is enough to turn him into an objecct of reverence. and that's odd.

I don't think that's the sole reason. I agree that he is an object of reverence (and the word "object" is particularly pertinent here) but I think that's about more than simply *liking* people. I think the Saint Pete phenomenon is the result of a number of factors, including his passivity and, IMHO, his Tourette's. I reckon his Tourette's is a huge element in his objectification, for better or worse.
 
 
h1ppychick
19:29 / 29.06.06
i'm loving the contrast of lea's histrionics and aisleyne's sarcasm tonight, aisleyne is coming out looking sane and rational.
 
 
Evil Scientist
19:31 / 29.06.06
Bless Nikki. Quick attention is on someone else! Make a scene!
 
 
The Falcon
19:36 / 29.06.06
Aisleyne's got her bang to rights; Lea's become a dreary, dreary bore and has me reduced to telly-shouting, much as Lisa did before her - it's funny, I'd not have expected to hold Nikki in such comparative high esteem to either after the first two weeks or so.
 
 
Ganesh
19:39 / 29.06.06
"More fucking persecution..."

Yes, Lea, it's aaaall about you. And Pete sounding off in the Diary Room is all well and good, but I can't help wishing he'd say at least some of that stuff to Lea.
 
 
The Falcon
19:39 / 29.06.06
Her comebacks are moronic too.

Jesus.
 
 
h1ppychick
19:39 / 29.06.06
Bless Nikki. Quick attention is on someone else! Make a scene!

Yeah, the reason they delayed letting her in the Diary Room was to get footage of her when she's worked up. Nothing to do with the fact that Glyn was already in there extolling the vir-tue of his ham and crisp sand-wich and his black pud-ding cha-ser.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:41 / 29.06.06
If Lea were a farmyard animal then she'd have been put out of her misery long since. BB should ask her into the Diary Room and shoot her. It would be a kindness.

I liked Aisleyne's repeated use of Bye... to wind her up. Reality check time, Lea.
 
 
Ganesh
19:42 / 29.06.06
Oh, drown yourself in the fucking pool, Lea.

(That'd be my Suggestion.)
 
 
Evil Scientist
19:50 / 29.06.06
White Queen smackdown!

Correct me if I'm wrong but, ah, does anyone recall Lea standing up to the hostile masses in defence of Aisleyne when she first came in? I don't, but I may be experiencing Housemate Memory Syndrome.
 
 
Ganesh
19:56 / 29.06.06
Correct me if I'm wrong but, ah, does anyone recall Lea standing up to the hostile masses in defence of Aisleyne when she first came in?

I remember it well. Everyone was hot to attack Aisleyne, and Lea beat them all off with her bare hands. Like at a sexyparty.
 
 
h1ppychick
19:57 / 29.06.06
Oh Lea, Lea, Lea. That was something an ignorant bloke would have said. She sounds grumpy that Aisleyne's trying to smooth the water and that the foundations of Lea's "righteous" anger are being eroded from beneath her.
 
 
Shrug
20:10 / 29.06.06
Oh dear sweet virtuous Lea, why won't Aisleyne see your selfless martyrdom for what it is? You do not bitch. You are straight talking. You are just yourself at all times. All this, of course, renders you practically sacrosanct and the very act of criticsm towards you akin to heresy.
But, really, ffs perish the thought that anyone could find your behaviour even a minutest bit objectionable. I mean, don't even take it into consideration for a second!!
 
 
The Falcon
20:14 / 29.06.06
Yes, quite; also, you are definitely not paranoid. Definitely not. In no way. At all.
 
  

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