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Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

 
  

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Mister Six, whom all the girls
11:48 / 23.06.06
I also use the excuse 'Oh, I er... was just singing to myself... badly, I'm afraid' when I'm caught communing with my dark lord.
 
 
GogMickGog
21:00 / 23.06.06
Now, maybe I'm just digging for truths where there are none BUT at the point when all the members of LINDA were introduced did anyone else pick up, in the correlation between the Doctor described as a "heroic archetype" and what I'm sure was an image of the Harlequin, an oblique wave to the Eternal Champion?
 
 
■
21:27 / 23.06.06
I knew someone here would bring that up, but forgot to make a note of it. So, just checked and it's a diagram headed "Mythological Structures" with areas for King, Doctor, Fool, Thief and Stranger. All the areas are reciprocally linked in that order )point A, The Fool linked to King and Stanger with Point N (as are the Thief and Stranger) with Doctor also being linked to Stranger and Thief by a line labelled Point C (with a small link between Stranger and Thief).
The line given is: "To me the Doctor isn't a man is more a collection of archetypes."
It's a throwaway line which will eventually become the subject of a schism in Who fandom between those who believe that the point N relations should have been Point B and those who reckon it was a bit of a gag about the TARDIS being an ANC delivery vehicle, where the Doctor is a cosmic courier.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:13 / 23.06.06
Last two episodes just repeated on BBC Three (which, icnidentally, no longer has any other decent reason for existing). Things that struck me on a second viewing:

The Satan Pit has one over on every other episode of this series by including music that works tpo the advantage of the storyline, rather than feeling intrusive. Said music also includes a recurring theme which is *far* less annoying than the 'Lonely God' theme that's nearly managed to bugger up every scene it's appeared in to date.

Enormous plot hole (unless I missed the explanation) right slap-bang in the middle, which - as usual - will only bother you if you dwell on it, so you might want to skip the rest of this paragraph if you've not noticed it yet. The Beast, yeah? Finally beaten and caged by a long-dead race. Long-dead race set up a system by which any passing traveller could ensure the Beast's destruction should it show signs of escaping. Begs the question: why the fuck didn't the long-dead race chuck the Beast into the black hole themselves?

Silly fire-from-mouth effect on Toby just as he's ranting and raving in the (no longer) escaping rocket. I don't get why they felt the need to do that.

Tennant's mugging for the camera: this complaint is way unfair, imo. Doesn't matter how decent an actor you are, how understated you want to play it, you're going to end up looking like a performing monkey if you're working with a director who decides to jump to a different camera angle with every single line you deliver. If the director had trusted Tennant to be able to do that scene on his own without interfering with it in this way, nobody would have thought of it as gurning.

Love and Monsters. Much better second time around. As far as I can tell, the negative comments about Kay's performance are coming from a general dislike of the man himself rather than anything he did on screen during this forty-five minutes.

Paving slab girlfriend is still utterly wrong - raises some horrible thoughts about power balances in sexual relationships and stuff like that.

First scene of the episode does the rest a disservice by messing up the joke/drama balance (this wasn't the Keystone Cops moment that made me laugh, btw - that was the Elton/Absorbalof chase) and by containing a particularly poorly-written joke that I'd imagine is unintelligable unless you've heard RTD explaining it on DWConfidential. Certain sections of the script later on in the ep do the regular RTD trick of smacking you about the face with The Point.

I do like it still, though. The performances make it.

Right, other stuff. Somebody upthread (sorry, forget who) mentioned how The Satan Pit did a great job of communicating a sense of age, of a place and a time that was ancient and important, and the comment hit home for me, finally allowed me to nail my big problem with the rest of this series so far. Nothing feels old - none of the other worlds that we've visited have felt lived-in or like they've got their own history. Basically, they may as well have popped into existence the very second that the Tardis appeared on them. That's very un-Who, in my experience and it's a problem that's compounded by the way that Ten has been written. He never seems to think very much. There's not much going on in his head, apart from those moments when the camera's going fucking loopy and showing us his face from a million different angles a second while he goes "Wait! No.. hang on... YES! No.. think about it... OF COURSE! Or maybe not... hmm... OH YES!... no".

I'm not saying I want every episode to be The Satan Pit, but the version of Ten we got there was so far removed from the one we've had elsewhere that they may as well be different reincarnations. I'm hoping that this episode will prove to mark a turning point in the characterisation - it's impossible to tell from the last one, because he gets all of five minutes of screen time.

This is also possibly something to do with the fact that the only period of adjustment that both Rose and Ten needed after the reincarnation happened within the space of a single episode - and a one-off special, at that - before they were running about giddy as schoolgirls again. And how Rose has been a total waste of space for most of the series, up until the point where Ten gives us the "if there's one thing I believe in, I believe in her" line (which did leave me thinking to myself, dude, why?).

But yeah. Age. Or, if not age, then at least the sense that these places they're visiting are persistent worlds that do have their own histories and futures, even if we're not going to hear about them.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
01:02 / 24.06.06
Thanks for the post, Dupre X.

Some very good points which I mostly agree with. You've put yer time in and shared your knowledge which I'm sure we all appreciate. I for one am happy you watched Love & Monsters again for me as I hope to never see it again... which I've never thought of for Dr Who... aside perhaps from Delta and the Bannermen.

Satan Pit is the first 'alien planet' story for the new series which I think is why they went overboard with the excellent work setting up the environment. It certainly stinks of atmosphere and presence, doesn't it? And it contains Tennant's best performance to date (though I also like Girl in the Fireplace). Fantastic two-parter, perhaps the best of the new series.

But I will disagree on one point if you don't mind.

David Tennant's mugging for the camera is in part down to editing in the Satan Pit (though why he does a full on Jim Carey impersonation as the 'devil' dies is beyond me). But it's not just in Satan Pit that I've been bothered by it. I won't run the gamut of examples but in Age of Steel his last scene with the Cyber Controller is positively irritating. Shout, shout and more shouting, waltz around like you're a first timer in community theater with the lead then pop a cellular phone into the recharger. Oh and just hold a weird ass facial expression to the camera with your teeth, eyes and nostrils as wide as possible, David. It's like he's having a cavity search!

This could be down to direction, it could be RTD's vision of the character (and given his recent statement in Doctor Who Magazine I highly question the man's motives at this point), but... it's got Tennant's face. I hope this OTT performance style of his changes because it's ruining the show for me and I'd like to enjoy watching it.

Why Tennant has to dance like a ninny and pull at his hair to jump cuts to solve a problem is beyond me. Does the show have such little faith in its viewers that it has to run a little film that emphasizes 'madcap solution' before the Doctor figures something out??

I know that for some viewers this zaniness is being embraced as part of his persona and therefore part of Dr Who and all the power to you... it just doesn't work for me.
 
 
Triplets
16:57 / 24.06.06
3 minutes!

The Doctor and Rose vs. Murderers of the Paperverse!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:45 / 24.06.06
Ouch. This is bad on so very many levels of profound shitness. Dire script (has Rose ever actually said 'the Doctor' to him? She's only ever referred to him as the Doctor when talking to other people I think), awful acting (the child was impressive in her inability to act) and that crass thing with the abusive daddy. Nasty.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:47 / 24.06.06
Really? I loved it. But then I love Paper House, which it nicked most of its good bits from.

REALLY didn't need to see the credit spoilers though... you fucks, I'm gonna watch next week anyway, you don't need to sell it to me.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:54 / 24.06.06
I absolutely hated the beginning, but by the end was totally there. The tiny spore-like flower, the little egg-like spaceship, the ludicrous sentimental Olympics thing. The FUCKING AWESOME NEXT WEEK STUFF WHICH BLEW MY HEAD OFF. Doctor Who varies in quality but it's still basically what the week is for. Even with all the shit bits. Of which there are many.
 
 
A fall of geckos
18:01 / 24.06.06
Yeah, I thought this started ok and got substantially better by the end. The flower/migratory alien was lovely. The Marianne Dreams/Paperhouse stuff was less subtle then in the original book and film, but then the original material was written by a child psycologist who had more time to develop the psycological side. Overall I thought it was pretty good.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:11 / 24.06.06
Only bit I liked was the trailer for next week. The sentimental Olympics stuff was ridiculous, particularly with Huw Edwards voicing it. Actually, Rose having to save the world, and the Doctor too, was cool but still only 3 out of 10.
 
 
Triplets
18:17 / 24.06.06
Lady, I've come to feel that you think 99% of everything is shit. Sturgeon's Law not being good enough for you, obviously.

As far as the episode goes I liked it. It had a nice concept; empathised with Chloe and the Solis as I was an arty, lonely child myself.

Morrisonian Bad Dad at the end was nasty and Amityvillesque. It's about Nasty Father's this season innit? Trigger, Bertie, Giles, Peter Kay, Anti-Santa.

Doctor with his big torch at the end was a bit too much for me, though. The Doc shouldn't be so visible. Also, the commentator at the end "it's about hope, and unity, and LOVE. DO YOU SEE?" Someone needed to take away the writer's Theme Hammer really.

Still, good ep. Also, no gurnination from the Doctor! Yay!
 
 
Lama glama
18:18 / 24.06.06
This was my favourite stand-alone episode since School Reunion. I'd have to disagree with Our Lady on most points. The girl was great, doing exactly what the script required of her. Little girls who sing are by their very nature, terrifying and this little girl nailed that at the beginning. I felt that the script was a lot of fun although I did find myself willing the pace to pick up a bit.

It was interesting to see the tables turned, with the Doctor being abducted instead of Rose. The resolution, with the returned Doctor smiling that smile of his as he lit the Olympic torch was priceless, much like the rest of his performance in this episode-and there was minimal gurning! The only thing I didn't like was the horribly tacked on RTD line at the end, foreshadowing what's to come in Army of Ghosts. Oh, if Shayne Ward is still making "music" six years from now, please, kill me now.

Is it okay to discuss what we've seen in the trailer here, including those familiar laser blasts and light effects?
 
 
pear
18:21 / 24.06.06
It reminded me of Ghostbusters 2, which really wasn't a good thing.
 
 
Triplets
18:22 / 24.06.06
Also, the girl being wooden. Well, she's an anti-social kid possessed by a talking space-flower pretending to be an anti-social kid!
 
 
sleazenation
18:49 / 24.06.06
I preferred this to last week's, which got a little bit too Cruise of the Gods for my liking.

I quite liked the scribble monster, The Doctor having parking trouble and the scarey kid concept.

Really didn't like the Huw Edwards soundtrack - The disappearance of the entire stadium could have been made to work if the voiceover had speculated that perhaps it was all a trick by one of the magicians taking part in the opening ceremony, anything that was a little more plausible than everyone's disappeared and now there back and we aren't going to ask any questions... (I know, I know, it's Dr Who - the improbable is its main currency)

The ominous foreshadowing for next week left me feeling ambivilent - It worked really well in The Satan Pit, and came out of nowhere, but here it felt a little laboured. I guess its one of those little reminders you have to put into an episodic series for the less attentive viewers, but still...

Anyway - next week is going to be great.

Spoilers for those who hate trailers...










It looks like the cybermen at the end of series 2 are the ones from the parallel world we saw earlier in the series... and was it me or was there a line in there that seemed to indicate an oblique reference to the daleks? It probably was just me....
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:28 / 24.06.06
Given that they've effectively made the two interchangable, sleaze, it'd be an easy mistake to make.

Huw Edwards: yeah, shit. It's always shit when they do this - see Andrew Marr last series - but here it was made worse by the fucking terrible delivery of the lines, the way that the BBC's news coverage seemingly forgot all about 80,000 people disappearing in front of their eyes not five minutes later when they switched to the bloke carrying the torch, and the way that he said that line not once, but twice. The exact same words, as far as I could tell.

The Doctor picking up the torch = cringetastic. The Doctor lighting the torch at the end to send the little alien dude on its way = not cringetastic. The two just about cancelled each other out - might have been difficult to get to the second without showing the first.

Little girl was pretty good, as far as little girls go. I deffo liked the "I can go home!" bit - any prior iffyness forgotten, because she sold me on it right there, when it mattered the most.

Dad in the wardrobe looked a bit like the Beast. That confused me for a few minutes.

Build up to the series finale might have got me excited if they'd not been telegraphing it in since episode two. Can't say I'm exactly wetting myself in anticipation - we're only on the second series and we're already faced with a finale that looks to be using precisely the same plot twist as we got last year. Plus, of course, a penultimate episode that will probably have been rendered largely pointless by a trailer that doesn't understand the meaning of TMI.

People being down on this one: can't shake the feeling that it's mainly because it wasn't the episode that the trailer made it out to be. I'm sure I wasn't the only person who was expecting a murderous drawing to be terrorising that street, escaping from its sheet of paper when nobody was looking and going on a homicidal rampage. That's how the trailer was cut, but this wasn't that story. Disappointment may well be coming from accidentally being thrown for a loop.

I liked it. Cheesey moments aside - and there were a couple of mature, veiny stinkers in there - it warmed the cockles.
 
 
sleazenation
19:59 / 24.06.06
I dunno, my expectations of the last episode have changed through the course of the season.

Originally I figured it would be a slow build up to a end of season finale that effectively served to be the pilot episode for Torchwood.

Later on I kind of forgot about Torchwood and got a bit overexcited about the possibility of cybermen vs daleks... before figuring that the the ending would more likely be the cybermen killing Mickey...

Then Mickey went and stayed in another dimension... but it isn't outside of the bounds of possibility that Mickey won't return and die.

And then we had that line about Rose dying in battle and the revelation that Billie was leaving, which I foolishly figured would happen an episode or two into season 3, or maybe in the christmas special, not at the end of the season like last year...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:26 / 24.06.06
So, it would seem that Torchwood is anti-Doctor just like Queen Victoria wanted... oh-kay. Someone got blasted by a ray gun that looked like a Dalek weapon fire, was there a reference to the Satan Pit baddie in there? If those are the alterna-universe Cybermen I wonder if I was right in my observation that the Cyber-Controller looked as if he'd got beamed away rather than fallen into the explosion at the end. Must go back and rewatch.

Triplettes- Your point being? Presuming you have one? New Earth- Poor. Tooth and Claw- Okay. School Reunion- Great stuff. Girl in the Fireplace- Great except for the romance. Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel- Bit dodgy in places but good. Idiots Lantern- Naff. Impossible Planet/Satan Pit- Good (though how did the TARDIS fall down into the pit where the beast was when the lid was closed until the Doctor went down much later?) Love and Monsters- okayish. Fear Her- Crap. My main concern this season has been the overarching themes, whether they exist and whether they're any good and an overall concern that things have tended more towards the farting aliens end of things rather than the 'Are You my Mummy?'/crediting the audience with the intelligence to work it out.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:29 / 24.06.06
There was nothing special about the archeologist from The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit was there? So what's to stop Satan from riding out in any of the survivors, Rose, the Doctor or the TARDIS?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:32 / 24.06.06
how did the TARDIS fall down into the pit where the beast was when the lid was closed until the Doctor went down much later?

I answered this earlier, didn't I? It fell into the chasm caused by the quakes. The seal was created by the ancient civislisation as a passage down to the pit because, presumably, they didn't know that the planet was going to tear itself apart in and present a naturally-formed route to the same place hundreds of thousands of years in the future. Also, we don't know how far the Doctor had run away from the Beast's pit before he tripped over and landed against it - it wasn't necessarily even in the 'pit'.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:35 / 24.06.06
There was nothing special about the archeologist from The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit was there?

He was working on translating the ancient language and the only one of the group who had enough expertise to even attempt it. I think teh idea was that it was these attempts that woke it up.
 
 
Lama glama
21:38 / 24.06.06
This finalé could still turn out to be Daleks vs. Cybermen. What follows is entirely speculative and gleaned entirely from the trailer to Army of Ghosts.

We see the cybermen. Nifty. They're obviously on their way over from the alternative dimension along with the ghosts, who my dearest brother has speculated as being either Cybermen trying to force their way through or humans trying to flee their own world, now over-run by Cybers.

Then, near the end of the trailer we see the familiar sight of Dalek laserbeams and that unforgettable Dalek laser noise. However, the lasers seem to be being shot from a height, like the top of a building. We know Dalek's can now climb stairs and the like, but I think that putting them on a roof-top would be labouring the point somewhat. What I'm going to postulate, is that Torchwood, who we know enjoy harvesting bits and pieces of alien technology have somehow harvested Dalek technology and given it to their own personnel to combat the cybermen. Hence the rooftop snipers with Dalek weaponry.

Ooh, maybe the Dalek weaponry could somehow take over the bodies the Torchwood staff, turning them into Human-Dalek hybrids..or something. Gah. This is going to be such a long week.
 
 
■
00:57 / 25.06.06
Bollocks, it sounds as if the spoiler had waaaaay too much info. Must try to find a copy as I missed tonight's showing, but there are bits in what you're all discussing that even I've not seen. That sucks for all concerned.
Anyway, I thought Fear Her was not very good. My biggest niggle was the question: "since when has anyone regarded the Olympic torch as being about love?" Otherwise, I felt it tried to capture the atmosphere of Sapphire & Steel and fell short. There were nice bits but it just didn't hold my attention. The idea was excellent, the execution was dreadful. I kept popping off to some laundry and leaving it on pause.
 
 
Billuccho!
01:39 / 25.06.06
It reminded me of Ghostbusters 2, which really wasn't a good thing.

Really? How? I didn't notice. And I love Ghostbusters 2.

As for Fear Her, it really was a companion piece to the Idiot's Lantern, wasn't it? Only this time, Rose saves the day whilst the Doctor is incapacitated. But there you go.

I loved the dialogue in this one. The actual plot/baddie/macguffin could've worked better. Shame we didn't actually get the evil daddy drawing going on a rampage, but there was probably no budget for it. Saw the torch bit coming miles away, but smiled anyway.

The ominous coda could've, um, used a second take. Perhaps with the Doctor not speaking so ominously. Just nonchalantly saying "Huh, looks like there's a storm coming," in reference to, y'know, maybe it's gonna rain. Would've been less in-your-face that way.

Trailer blew me away. Must rewatch it.
 
 
■
09:55 / 25.06.06
Wow. Just saw the trailer and it's an atrocity of spoilage As well as destroying any tension in next episode there are bits that look as though they must come from the final episode. And that voiceover! What?
Stupid BBC, stupid, stupid.

... and just as I hit send they show a new version on BBC1 with most of the offending bits stripped out. I get the feeling RTD may have been shouting down the phone at people last night, as were many viewers.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:54 / 25.06.06
I doubt it, the point of adverts are to try and tell you the main points of the story to save you the trouble of watching it. Didn't the ads for the penultimate episode of the last season reveal the Daleks were behind it all? I suspect that what has to be done is to try and slip something else into the story to still make it exciting, such as the promos for the first episode was all about the evil cat-nuns but the presence of Lady Cassandra (which was arguably the real story here) was kept quiet until the last round of interviews and whatnot for the show. Maybe that's what's going on here. I can't help but feel that we're now in a situation where Doctor Who doesn't need to pimp it's next episodes at the end of the previous, or can afford to give less away. What about:

< BLACK SCREEN >

Rose: < vo > We'll always be okay you and me.

Rose: < vo > Don't you reckon Doctor?

< Brief flash of Rose in trouble >

Satan: < vo > The valient child, who will die in battle so very soon.

< Blackout >

Doctor: < vo > There's a storm coming.

< Cut to Apparently Evil Woman. >

Apparently Evil Woman: Welcome to Torchwood!

< Cut to any pensive looking shot of the Doctor and Rose >

Rose: < vo from Satan Pit > It said I was going to die in battle.

Doctor: < vo from Satan Pit > It lied.

< Cut to quick shot of field full of ghostly figures >

< Blackout >

Rose: < Shrieking > Doctor?

Ooo-weee-oooo...
 
 
&#9632;
11:10 / 25.06.06
Didn't the ads for the penultimate episode of the last season reveal the Daleks were behind it all?

Nope, we spent ages debating whose voice it was. I was sure it was Mickey.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:35 / 25.06.06
They did, cube. They just didn't show us who was ultimately in control of the Daleks.
 
 
sleazenation
14:22 / 25.06.06
I think you are thinking of the preview for the last episode Mr Dupre - the preview for the penultimate episode ended with the daleks running around screaming that they had been detected, kinda ruining the whole Big Brother conceit...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:24 / 25.06.06
Thought so.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:28 / 25.06.06
Er, isn't that what I said? It's certainly what I meant.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:44 / 25.06.06
I think sleaze has you mixed up with cube.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
21:03 / 25.06.06
'Fear Her'

Excellent episode, very very bad ending.

The Doctor runs the olympic torch to the font where presumably the alien spaceship is hanging out despite the fact that it was set to go five minutes ago, then the Doc scampers about like a loon screaming 'Yay!'

I half expected the 'World in Motion' song to start up.

The story is great, lovely depiction of suburban life, etc. The lost alien child is great, the Doctor /Rose interaction didn't bother me and the whole idea of drawings coming to life is very inspired.

I think the Olympics thing was shoe-horned in.

Oh, and no Torchwood reference! Yay!
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:19 / 25.06.06
Big fucking torch though.
 
  

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