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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Doctor Who: Season 2 UK

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Regrettable Juvenilia

14:40 / 10.07.06

I think the important thing is we spend more time picking apart the various plot holes than understanding the emotional rightness of Rose's dad coming back to save her. And after all, Doctor Who has always had the rigorous internal consistency that all hard sci-fi needs.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

14:46 / 10.07.06

Welcome to Hell Rose Tyler.

Call me sick, but that was very funny.

Ta, Lady.

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

14:46 / 10.07.06

But the fans want to like it, they want it to be good!

14:54 / 10.07.06

I did like Flowers' idea. I suppose I was demonstrating that the ornate knife of fanwanking is sharp on both edges.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:56 / 10.07.06

The idea that Rose would somehow "in Hell" because she's with Mickey, Pete and Jackie, is one that depends on either not paying attention to even just this episode let alone the rest of the two seasons, or not having any ability to read emotional interactions as portrayed in televisual drama whatsoever.

15:03 / 10.07.06

Our Lady is clearly some kind of Eliza style AI designed to provoke politically radical internet forumites into revealing personal information which it then sends to the NSA.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

15:19 / 10.07.06

The idea that Rose would somehow "in Hell" because she's with Mickey, Pete and Jackie, is one that depends on either not paying attention to even just this episode let alone the rest of the two seasons, or not having any ability to read emotional interactions as portrayed in televisual drama whatsoever.

... I don't think anyone wants to imagine that kind of four way, Flyboy, regardless of it taking place in Hell or not.

I think you may have meant that the idea of Rose being in Hell showed an inability to understand television drama and pay attention to the program in general, etc.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

15:47 / 10.07.06

Is it asking too much for anyone to tell me what happened at the end?

16:09 / 10.07.06

The Wikipedia has a pretty succinct entry for the episode.

Rose has a dream where she hears the Doctor's voice calling her. Rose, Jackie, Pete and Mickey follow the voice to sixty miles outside Bergen, Norway, on the coastline of Dårlig Ulv Stranden — Bad Wolf Bay. There, an image of the Doctor appears; he tells her that he found the last of the breaches, and is transmitting the signal by using the TARDIS to harness the power of a supernova. With only two minutes, the two share their last good-byes. Rose tells the Doctor that Jackie is three months pregnant. At first, Rose jokes that she is now back working as a shop girl, but then reveals that she is with the parallel Torchwood, which has re-opened, as they could use her expertise with aliens. The Doctor smiles proudly at Rose Tyler: Defender of the Earth.

The Doctor tells Rose that she is officially listed among those that died on that day. Breaking down, Rose asks what the Doctor will do, and he simply says he will go on, alone. Weeping, Rose tells the Doctor she loves him. He begins to reply, but only manages to get out her name before his image fades. Rose, still in tears, turns and runs back into Jackie's arms.

In the TARDIS, the Doctor wipes his own tears from his eyes and starts to work the console. Suddenly he sees a woman in a wedding dress standing in the console room. Dumbfounded, all the Doctor can say is "What?" as the bride demands sharply that he tell her where she is… To be continued in "The Runaway Bride"...

And that's the bulk of it.

I agree with Bill of R's preference of Tennant to Baker. I appreciate and understand Baker's contribution to the popularity and success of the show, but I never really cared about his Doctor. I enjoyed the adventures and was always curious about he and his companions would get out of various situations, but I never really cared about the Doctor until Tennant. That look of agony on the Doctor's face as Rose is about to get sucked into the void has cemented my emotional connection to this Doctor forever.

Also, if you cried at the last moments of the show, I wouldn't visit the BBC Who page..it's likely to set you off again!

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

16:36 / 10.07.06

Sorry to be a pain, so this means Rose and Co. were already in a parallel universe when she heard the Doctor's voice?

I'm gleaning bits and pieces.

16:47 / 10.07.06

Yuss. Get thee to bittorrent, welp!

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

16:51 / 10.07.06

Again, sorry. Just read the Wikipedia entry for Doomsday.

18:19 / 10.07.06

I'd like to thank Iamus for posting the bestest post on a geek topic for ages.

Well done, my man. Let's hope the programme makers share your oh-so-on-the-money vision.

18:36 / 10.07.06

Oh, and, Evil, I agree entirely that 'twas good to see the Daleks pwn the Cybermen, not only 'cause the Daleks took on the Timelords, but 'cause they're the Doctor's arch-enemies, and arch enemies should be proper dangerous and hard, and have oodles of gravitas. Having them get duffed up by other baddies - no matter how well loved - would've made them just that little bit less special. That said, I'd still rather the gold thing hadn't been done away with, for the reasons outlined above, and I don't think it would've negatively impacted the plot. I mean, how long would it have taken the humans to work out that the Cybermen could only be killed by gold? And once they'd worked it out (probably with a little help from the doctor) , would that information be particularly helpful? Gold's hardly as ubiquitous as fire, and I'm assuming it would actually have to pierce the Cybermens' armour to have any effect. Basically it would still be much easier for the Cybermen to kill people than vice versa, and for every man killed another Cyberman rises from the ashes...

Actually, I'm gonna stop this geek wank now. Iamus does it so much better.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

18:48 / 10.07.06

Yeah, I have to agree with Boboss. I heart iamus' posts on the good Doctor. They're just so...passionate.

Poke it with a stick

20:13 / 10.07.06

You know what I really love about this series? The details.

Just look at the cap badges on the suited and booted Torchwood troops - that's the sort of detail that only people who love the show would have even thought to have bothered with.

The finale seemed perfect to me simply because I forgot to think "it's a kid's show, ignore the...(insert gripe here)..." - it worked - whoever and however old you are.

Something else that I'm enjoying is that the Earth is being made to sit inside a wider Universe - references, however intangible, made about Treaties; prior knowledge of other races and the all-pervading Time War - there's a whole raft of stuff being laid out for us to debate and speculate and invent and discover.

20:24 / 10.07.06

Just thought.

Cybermen- Grey, rubbish, shambling, conquer by numbers, sometimes retain memories: Zombies!

Daleks- Self-regarding and dramatic, can fly, have other scary powers, adapt only those they consider worthy, practically immortal: Vampires!

20:51 / 10.07.06

so where are the pirates? - the sea devils?

21:13 / 10.07.06

there's a whole raft of stuff being laid out for us to debate and speculate and invent and discover

Yup, this is where I think RTD is doing things right on a macro scale, despite the micro scale cock-ups. SF in the minds of most people is disconnected from the real world because it's all (in unwilling SF author Margaret Atwood's words) "telepathic squids in space" (Stephen Baxter must have wet himself laughing at that). He's bridging the gap between soap and SF in a way that I don't think ANY series (except, perhaps, some of Lew Grade's ATV stuff) has ever managed to do, which will, hopefully, lead to a greater acceptance of SF in mainstream TV.
Oh, and iamus, keep up the geek work. Have I showed you my collection of Edinburgh TARDISes yet?

21:21 / 10.07.06

Nah. The Doctor's the pirate.

Thanks for the good words, by the way guys. It's nice of you to say.

Kali. If you want to thank me then stop all this spoiler-reading nonsense, download the episode and do one thing for me.

That's all.
One thing.

Have a good time.
Do that for me, Kali.

Have a fantastic time.

21:23 / 10.07.06

Those photos are top, cube. Have you caught them all? What number could you actually get into and did you find many celebrities making odd cameos inside?

21:26 / 10.07.06

Ah cube. You guys have a fair collection of Tardises over there. Some of them are lovely.

I can only think of three in Glasgow, two of which are now coffee stalls (PER-CO-LATE!). The third one's red though, so I guess that must be The Master's.

It's great. I remember walking by the Buchanan street one all the time when I was really wee and hooked on Who, hoping I'd see it do something amazing. Watching kids do that nowadays is just too cool.

21:32 / 10.07.06

I mean, how long would it have taken the humans to work out that the Cybermen could only be killed by gold?

Considering they only had and hour and a half to work with? Too long. Cyberman being allergic or weak against or whatever to gold doesn't make sense to me as a purely NewWho fan. And, like you say, for every Cyberman killed by a weaponised Rolex another one gets back up. Bit redundant.

Also, if we go by Bizunth's Cybermen = zombies then the quickest way is to... destroy the brain (or the ooey gooey chest brain).

If Daleks are vampires then the sonic screwdriver is a stake. Do you see?

21:41 / 10.07.06

I'm not at all sure what points the boy Triplets is making.

Are you, as they say, living it large this evening?

21:46 / 10.07.06

It would take an imaginitive writer to force any sense out of it, but it could be done. As I said above, I'd be looking for a poetic explanation infused with Lovecraftian strangeness.

21:48 / 10.07.06

I don't want to reduce the Cybermen to zombies or the Daleks to vampires. I want them to be special and original beasties in their own right.

21:59 / 10.07.06

I wasn't reducing, I was comparing. I'm sure you could find enough traits to claim that Cybermen were vampires instead.
I don't want to see any stories where they're treated like that either. Any story where the Cybermen could be exchanged for zombies or any other movie creature aren't Cybermen stories. They're stories with Cybermen in them.

22:00 / 10.07.06

I'm peaking on the Hunger Breaks right now dude.

Just saying that the Cybermen not being fans of Spandau Ballet would come completely out of left-field considering what's been laid down since Age of Steel.

Outside of that these new Cyber Sapiens are well tech-oriented. I don't think adding mystical Cthuly ingredients would taste very good - this is coming from someone who digs Lovecraft.

I'm not saying it couldn't (have) be(en) done. But why? What's to be gained from adding an old parallel universe weakness onto the new Cybermythos?

Oh, and Van Doctor vs Count Dalek? Am chatting bollocks.

22:02 / 10.07.06

The Ark was a big coffin, though.

22:02 / 10.07.06

What number could you actually get into and did you find many celebrities making odd cameos inside?

Sadly, the answer to both is none. There are a few that have locks so bad it wouldn't take much more than lightly acidic tramp piss to burn them out but I'm usually very sober when I go hunting.

I remember walking by the Buchanan street one all the time when I was really wee and hooked on Who, hoping I'd see it do something amazing. Watching kids do that nowadays is just too cool.

Just imagine the double squeaky joy Saveloy and son are missing by not coming up here.
Anyway, yes, that was one of the driving forces behind the quest. I recall that during one of the early Davison runs I spent a few weeks up here with my grandparents in West Calder and would get SO excited when I saw the boxes on the way into town, willing them to go VWOOORP! I love the idea that kids these days might be getting the same feeling, and want to make sure we know where they all are (as, allegedly, the polis don't).

22:13 / 10.07.06

Boboss: It would take an imaginitive writer to force any sense out of it, but it could be done. As I said above, I'd be looking for a poetic explanation infused with Lovecraftian strangeness.

There's a Tom Baker story - The Caves of... something or other - where it's gold dust that kills them. Thrown into the grills on the breastplate. Suffocates them. There's something very dark about that and, as a bonus, it makes some kind of sense.

I'm not even sure that gold always was the Cyberdeathbringer that it eventually became - don't recall it being used by Troughton in Tomb of the Cybermen, but it's a long time since I saw that.

22:19 / 10.07.06

I think the Baker one, Revenge of The Cybermen was the first to explicitly mention gold as a weakness. It also makes me giggle as it's referenced in the radio versions of League of Gentlemen: Stump Hole Caverns being where Tom Baker twisted his ankle - a Gatiss tribute to the Wookey Hole Caves where it was filmed.

06:15 / 11.07.06

I think it's mentioned upthread somewhere but these cybermen aren't vulnerable to gold. There's mention of it being a problem for prototype models on the Cybus Industries website but that's it.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:08 / 11.07.06

Flyboy Does Dirt The idea that Rose would somehow "in Hell" because she's with Mickey, Pete and Jackie, is one that depends on either not paying attention to even just this episode let alone the rest of the two seasons, or not having any ability to read emotional interactions as portrayed in televisual drama whatsoever.

Well, let's see. Just in this episode, does she decide to go with her mother, her ex-boyfriend and a man who tells her repeatedly he's not her Dad to a parallel dimension, or does she choose to stay with the Doctor?

Throughout the two series she repeatedly chooses the Doctor over Mickey and pretty much tells him so several times. Admittedly there is the question of why exactly she got him to travel to Cardiff with her passport in 'Boomtown' but she also doesn't the Doctor to let Mickey come travelling with them in s.2.

Despite what her Mum says she's happy to go travelling and leave Jackie to sit at home and worry about whether she's ever coming back.

She's been repeatedly rebuffed by Pete when she's looking for a father figure. Of course the fact that he's taken all of them in in the other world suggests he's softened somewhat to the idea of a family he never knew but still, he's NOT her Dad, that has to be a bit weird.

So, I was being a bit silly, but I don't think it's an invalid reason. Stuck with three people she's rejected, unable to be with the one person she truly loves. How am I not paying attention Mr Fly?

07:30 / 11.07.06

So... who wants to start the Robin Hood thread?

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