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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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The Falcon
21:21 / 13.08.07
It's just - the whole five-a-side thing seems like one of those, oh-ho, apparently throwaway things they say (perhaps whilst booting bombs at yr plane, and certainly the bounce of the oddly-shaped ball tends to offer a more finite radius and stopping distance from original kick. Perhapsanaut, gumbs) and then you've got your encounter of goodanevil which... well, eleven on one doesn't seem so even as a roulette wheel, red or black. So maybe fives in the big game, with an insidious ref offering judgment? The whole manichaean thing's kicked up a notch the last bit anyway.

- is what I meant to say earlier. also, I love footy-footy-football.
 
 
LDones
18:00 / 16.08.07
For some reason - reading this comic again this morning, while the plumber was over, made me think that it was crystal clear that Cyril was not Cyril. That it's possibly John Mayhew pretending to be him & pretending to be dead, and that Cyril is probably already dead.

His speech during the tour sympathizes too much, guides too much. The sinister silhouette when we first see him, and the 5-A-Side and football bomb things are too right.

"You know, I'm sure the sly old bugger's watching us. I can feel eyes everywhere. Oi, John!"

"Well now that we've got everyone, we should take our seats. See what happens next."


"What do eccentric men who have everything do when they get bored?"
 
 
Mug Chum
18:13 / 16.08.07
Makes sense. Or is that what he wants us to think?
 
 
Jamie
18:57 / 16.08.07
For some reason - reading this comic again this morning, while the plumber was over, made me think that it was crystal clear that Cyril was not Cyril. That it's possibly John Mayhew pretending to be him & pretending to be dead, and that Cyril is probably already dead.

Or that the two of them never got out of Qwewq. Heck, that'd be a solution, wouldn't it? Batman knows that Knight & Squire went into Qwewq, but nobody else involved in this island getaway does, so Mayhew is fooling everyone except the World's Greatest Detective.
 
 
_Boboss
19:06 / 16.08.07
if that's the case, pretty crap of old bruce to let the baddie do away with legionary when he could have just collared him straight away.
 
 
Mug Chum
19:39 / 16.08.07
And I'm also thinking that the arc wouldn't be so entrenched on an outside bit of important plot information like Qwewq* (can't remember if it's mentioned in the comic).

[threadrot]
* I still love this name to this day. There's a certain conceptual musicality in 'lazy'-stuck three-fingers on keyboard palindrome (there should be some symbol to represent it, like three fingers, three wolverine claws, whatever). Is it supposed to sound like "quack"? (as in, "superheroes in reality are nonsense bullshit blabla" [is lazy bullshit]?)
[/threadrot]
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:39 / 16.08.07
if that's the case, pretty crap of old bruce to let the baddie do away with legionary when he could have just collared him straight away

Absolutely. Wouldn't Bruce have at least mentioned it to Cyril, as a worry? Or was he being all fatherly again, not bringing it up, in the hope that in the meantime Tim might get his rocks off with Beryl?

Which would actually make a certain amount of sense, the Bat Son having put Tim in hospital, and so on.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:57 / 16.08.07
I still love the name Qwewq to this day. There's a certain conceptual musicality in 'lazy'-stuck three-fingers on keyboard palindrome.

It may be inspired by Italo Calvino's Cosmicomics, where stories about the physical development of the universe, stars, life, and other space stuff (it's a while since I read it) are told by a narrator named Qfwfq, often representing space-time events himself.
 
 
Mug Chum
21:11 / 16.08.07
Seems (far!) more likely. Don't know if the concept was introduced in the DC universe by Morrison. Although I remember his scenes talking with Animal-Man being as if straight from Calvino.

(sorry for the threadrot, people)
 
 
The Falcon
21:41 / 16.08.07
Just to close out, Qwewq was created by Morrison - I think he's acknowledged the Calvino debt - and first appeared in JLA 'Rock of Ages', in Wonderworld's museum-city or whatever it was. I love all that, and I think you'd be well advised to give it a spin, Sparrer, but really think it has fuck all to do with this Batman arc, in the end.

[Not that the mangled garbage I may be masquerading as posited theories is necessarily any better, but you know. It's in the comic.]
 
 
Spaniel
08:49 / 17.08.07
Could Qwewq simply have corrupted the Knight and the Squire?

I can't remember the details but it does become Neh-Buh-Loh, yeah, so it is a bit of a wrong-place, innit?
 
 
Janean Patience
09:00 / 17.08.07
I remember Grant's scenes talking with Animal Man being as if straight from Calvino.

Straight from Alasdair Gray's Lanark, more like...

Enough of my self-aggrandising literary threadrot.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:32 / 17.08.07
Could Qwewq simply have corrupted the Knight and the Squire?

No.
 
 
Spaniel
13:42 / 17.08.07
Why?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:47 / 17.08.07
Weren't the Knight and Squire part of the innoculation the de-corrupted Nebuloh? In that case the idea that they were corrupted in return doesn't fit, they were 2 of the only heroes in the pocket universe, right?
 
 
Spaniel
14:50 / 17.08.07
So did they actually manage to un-corrupt Qwewq, then?

Sorry, I am the ignorant-geek.
 
 
Triplets
14:57 / 17.08.07
We never got told. As Neb-Buh-Loh ends up a baddy it's assumed they failed their mission.

However! - and my memory is hazy here - Neb-Buh-Loh mentions, in Seven Soldiers, that there is a flaw within him that lets him spare Misty (and later Zatanna at the Undying Don's Mansion) from execution. Others on here have read that, and I tend to agree, as the Ultramarines managing to corrupt Neb-Buh-Loh into at least having some semblance of guilt.
 
 
This Sunday
14:57 / 17.08.07
Rather than 'uncorrupt' I think they just sped up that universe's deterioration, heatdeath, kicked in the pants, did the rest. No confirmation on how long that took, what it took, or whether there were any survivors.
 
 
Triplets
15:01 / 17.08.07
So, the Knight being on Murder Island is a curious thing. It could be a clue, but it could just as well be hypertimepunches.

Either way, giving our villain's penchant for mounting other people's faces, The Knight's dialogue definitely reads as creepy and a bit dodgy.

Picked this up the other day along with the Six Satan Six issue. Loved them both (this one a bit more) especially given the lush double-page spread of plane-splosions that, really, I need as a poster. Strong truth.
 
 
Spaniel
15:06 / 17.08.07
So if they didn't manage to make Neh-Buh-Loh all beautiful, why couldn't they have been corrupted?

Am I being thick? I really haven't stored all that Seven Soldiers JLA/Ultramarine stuff in my head so I have no idea what kinds of theories look viable here.
 
 
This Sunday
15:11 / 17.08.07
It's the little things, like the Knight's previous predicament and the graffiti and the 666 timejump that make me keep hoping we're about to get loudly and absurdly cosmic bat-time soon.

And I could buy it not being the real Knight, but Beryl? Tim can't fall in fill-in-your-L-word-of-choice with a pretend evil Beryl, can he? Aren't there laws against that kind of thing? In the Teryl Statutes?
 
 
This Sunday
15:13 / 17.08.07
Boboss, from my memory and extrapolations, sure, they could be corrupted.
 
 
Triplets
15:38 / 17.08.07
Yes, he can, Nightfalling. His real dad's just died and Batman's got a replacement son. It has to be a triple-header. These are the things that make a Bat-son... a Batman!!
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:53 / 17.08.07
However! - and my memory is hazy here - Neb-Buh-Loh mentions, in Seven Soldiers, that there is a flaw within him that lets him spare Misty (and later Zatanna at the Undying Don's Mansion) from execution. Others on here have read that, and I tend to agree, as the Ultramarines managing to corrupt Neb-Buh-Loh into at least having some semblance of guilt.

The strong implication of the final Frankenstein - the battle up at Wing's grave in the Himalayas - was that, yes, there was a "flaw in [him]," though I tend to read it that the flaw was love, or appreciation of beauty ("Given the chance to end life or preserve it, I was moved by beauty. THERE IS A FLAW IN ME! I can feel it...white hot! And sharp." / "There was harmony, symmetry, and beauty in her. I CANNOT forget. Like an insect writhing on a pin in the glare of the sun. I CANNOT FORGET HER!"), so this pretty much assured me that the Ultramarines learned their lesson and were pretty successful, even if Neh-Buh-Loh did end up as a Sheeda slave-boy in starry loincloth, regardless. And, with the way time seemed inconsistent within the attascopically small universe, there's no reason they've been freed from their exile now that they've been successful.

Because Tim must love Beryl, and she must be the true Beryl. Or something. I'm willing to bet any potentially dubious suggestions that the Batmen of All Nations are possibly suspects might be a misdirection, though I'm prepared to be wrong. Keeping in mind that I just genuinely like the Knight and Squire and would rather they were consumed by the fires of evil Sheeda death-lust.
 
 
Triplets
16:03 / 17.08.07
Ah, see I've not read any of Frankenstein beyond #1 as my local comic shop is still to pick up Volume 4. I may have osmosed the flaw bit from other people's readings.
 
 
Triplets
16:03 / 17.08.07
Sorry, I mean FRANKENSTEIN!
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:05 / 17.08.07
I quite liked GM's treatment of Neh-Buh-Loh; the dialogue was always very overwrought, proclamatory, railing against the sky dialogue.
 
 
Triplets
16:13 / 17.08.07
He was a good'un, wasn't he? I can imagine Mozzer had a lot of fun writing Neb-Buh-Loh's shouty poetry (shoetry?). Obviously he never left his Teenagiverse angst that far behind.
 
 
Spaniel
17:43 / 17.08.07
I like the Knight & Squire too, so I'm hoping they're not all evil, or if they are I'm hoping they don't stay that way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:21 / 17.08.07
Sorry, but I just don't think that story matters as far as this one is concerned.
 
 
Spaniel
20:24 / 17.08.07
Yeah, that's the other, very real possibility. Feels right instinctively for some reason.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:12 / 17.08.07
Plus, I still think having it turn out to be one of the Club doing the killing would be sort of dull. Batman isn't about typical detectoring. The solution should be somewhat more ridiculous than that.
 
 
This Sunday
21:17 / 17.08.07
Batman isn't about typical detectoring.

One of the best bits in the new Brave and the Bold was where Bats is scaring people into providing information, and when he can stop early because Blue Beetle remembers he already knows the info, Bats complains that knowing the answers isn't detective work. Apparently, smacking people about and dangling them off buildings... that's proper detective work.
 
 
The Falcon
21:55 / 17.08.07
Sorry, but I just don't think that story matters as far as this one is concerned.

Well, this is it. I did say. Grant tends to be all about the self-contained single issue experience for the most part, so to dredge up his earlier continuity - which in terms of chronologically progressing narrative is never a heeyuge strongpoint anyway (Themes, motifs: yes) - just seems a run up the blindest of alleys. You didn't have to read any other Batmans to read this one - oh, 'kay, Robin's got an armstrain which he sustained against Baneman two back, but really, it's otherwise almost completely disjunctive, and you didn't have to read the original Ultramarines arc to read Classified, or that to read Seven Soldiers, or etc. etc. Just leave it, mate(s).
 
 
The Natural Way
07:57 / 18.08.07
Indeed. However, it does get a little confusing, continuity wise, when you consider that this run spins directly out of the events of 52.
 
  

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