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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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MFreitas
13:33 / 09.12.08
Why don't we just resume our conversation about the topic and just ignore the rantings of Troll Supremus Never Lives His Haus? It's just baffling how he doesn't let us, Moronic Troll and "friends", engage in our low level discussions...

And yes, I confess, I never read a single book in my entire life. Hell, I don't even read the comics, I just skipp through the cute drawings.

No wait, that's not me. That's a tulpa. Looks like someone loves them very much here.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:39 / 09.12.08
Oh, for the love of...



Everybody go cool off, post in some non-Batman threads and come back when the thought of a rich guy in fetish weasel tights doesn't incite you to psychodrama.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:27 / 09.12.08
If you read the post, vajramukti, you will find that the problem is not people not being able to converse above a certain level. It is people being upset at the idea that conversation can exist above their level of ability to have it. At which point they get upset and try to flame and shout until the level is reduced to their comfort level. So, for example, calling discussions above their abilities mumbo jumbo, or indeed trying to insult people personally - although due to the aforementioned lack of clever they might end up saying that the other party never lives his house. Sad but sad.
 
 
vajramukti
17:10 / 09.12.08
well it seems clear that such resentment might flow naturally from being made to feel stupid, or inadequate to participate, or simply being ignored. I cannot tell you how many times I've tried to raise a point on various threads and at various times in the past, and simply been unable to crack the code of barbe-discourse, despite having been an intermittent presence here for going on 6-7 years. I imagine my level of tolerance is much higher than most.

regardless of the motives, once it degenerates to the level it apparently has, someone ought to put their foot down. bueller? bueller?
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
17:11 / 09.12.08
After Batman was shut down by Jett and Hurt in the Batcave, does he ever dress himself as Batman again? We have ZEA then we have the villains dressing him in his "cool" classic get-up for the big Finale, Bruce plays along and ultimately discards the Bat-Mantle mid Battle, faces evil as Bruce Wayne and scares the living shit out of it.

Bruce has been through it All by now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:43 / 09.12.08
regardless of the motives, once it degenerates to the level it apparently has, someone ought to put their foot down. bueller? bueller?

Well, part two of the how to use Barbelith masterclass probably involves moderators moderating. Papers is having fun, above, but he does actually have a role to play here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:57 / 09.12.08
After Batman was shut down by Jett and Hurt in the Batcave, does he ever dress himself as Batman again? We have ZEA then we have the villains dressing him in his "cool" classic get-up for the big Finale, Bruce plays along and ultimately discards the Bat-Mantle mid Battle, faces evil as Bruce Wayne and scares the living shit out of it.

Bruce has been through it All by now.


He's dressed as Batman in 682, which takes place after the events of Batman R.I.P, surely? Likewise in Final Crisis, passim, which is going on at about the same time as Final Crisis 3, or thereabouts. Unless that Batman is not Bruce Wayne, which it seems he is, which in turn either means Final Crisis occurs before the battle for the cowl, or it is out of sequence and has spoilered the whole business.
 
 
Neon Snake
18:31 / 09.12.08
Battle For The Cowl takes place after Final Crisis, allegedly, after we see the "final fate" of Batman in Final Crisis #6...I think.

I dunno, it's all very disjointed and doesn't seem to flow together very well. I'm enjoying both stories enough to ignore the fudges needed, but it is no doubt a bit screwy.
 
 
vajramukti
18:59 / 09.12.08
well I think the explaination is simple enough, probably. bats has the one 'presumed' death at the end of RIP but the promise from hurt that 'next time will be the last', so we know he comes back from this false death at the end of RIP under unclear circumstances, to meet his true 'fate' at the end of FC. RIP is the promise of death, not the actual death itself.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:30 / 09.12.08
I'm somewhat unconvinced by that. I'm sure it's factually true, but it doesn't sit well with me.

I'm all for a shared, joined-up universe, with different comics tying into each other - I really, genuinely am, and it's one of the joys of the DCU for me (Countdown notwithstanding) - but the idea of going through RIP only to find out that the 'true' final fate of Batman lies in Final Crisis a month or so later...that's a bit much, isn't it?
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
19:41 / 09.12.08
So I guess based on what we've got we're going with a random JLA signal, Bruce pops up, capture, dreamtime. Nightwing and Robin do pop up in Jone's Draft spread...

There is a Final Crisis preview up at Newsarama that has some great dialogue and character moments. Wouldn't it be full circle for Hal to come to Batman's rescue in after being ridden by the hardass for years for being weak/possesion prone.

And have many of you read The Cult.

My personal Favorite Batman story of all time. The Wrightson art is gorgeous, another Bat-Breaking (spiritually) epic. In that one when Batman gets Broken, reborn Batman comes back meaner than before. Birth of Hh Bats?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:06 / 09.12.08
I'm somewhat unconvinced by that. I'm sure it's factually true, but it doesn't sit well with me.

I'm all for a shared, joined-up universe, with different comics tying into each other - I really, genuinely am, and it's one of the joys of the DCU for me (Countdown notwithstanding) - but the idea of going through RIP only to find out that the 'true' final fate of Batman lies in Final Crisis a month or so later...that's a bit much, isn't it?


Well, there's that and there's also that both his penultimate fate and his final fate involve as a central feature Batman being locked in a cellar and psychically knocked about a bit. He is not so much a vigilante at this point as a very unhappy bottle of wine.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:53 / 09.12.08
He is not so much a vigilante at this point as a very unhappy bottle of wine.

And always on the edge of turning into vinegar, by now. I want more stories about Batman getting into slap-fights with, like, the Magpie or whoever.
 
 
MFreitas
21:34 / 09.12.08
>or indeed trying to insult people personally.

Like calling other people "drool cock"? Terrible insult indeed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 09.12.08
You're not very good at this ignoring lark, are you? Maybe you should live the house and get some fresh air. Or have you been imprisoned in a cellar by an evil doctor and are you now fantasising about being able to have a coherent conversation? Live the cellar, droolio. Live it now.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:23 / 10.12.08
I want more stories about Batman getting into slap fights with, like the Magpie, or whoever

Batman beating the shit out of Skippy, the bush kangaroo, or whoever? I think not. You might think you want that, but honestly, you don't.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:09 / 10.12.08
No, I mean actual slap fights with him hissing "Quit it quit it quit it!" And comical moaning as he presses a hand to his forehead.

And there should be a Batcopter.
 
 
MFreitas
07:24 / 10.12.08
>You're not very good at this ignoring lark, are you? Maybe you should live the house and get some fresh air. Or have you been imprisoned in a cellar by an evil doctor and are you now fantasising about being able to have a coherent conversation? Live the cellar, droolio. Live it now.

NOW you're looking like a troll!
You're loosing qualities. It's been really easy this time forcing you to drop the intellectual façade. And you can fool many of your so called minions, but the way you act is so obviou and predictable I could even map your behaviour. You're erratic, you're an hypocrit and you do ten times worse every single thing you criticise in others. I'm starting to doubt if you really believe your acting or if you're just plain bipolar.

You just bought the wrong war. Sad. Just sad.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:41 / 10.12.08
Mfreitas, darling, have you really just rocked both NO U R TEH TROLL!!!11!23 and U MUST BE TEH RETARD LOL in one post?

If you're going for the moral highground, then do what you've repeatedly said you were going to do and ignore the man.

Telling us that you are taking the moral high ground by ignoring him, and then trolling him, does not equal: us sitting here stroking our many beards and thinking "That Freitas, he's a veritable prince amongst men.", y'know?
 
 
MFreitas
08:49 / 10.12.08
Jesus fucking christ! Who's taking the moral higher ground here? The bastard just keeps provoking me. Does he get on my nerves? Of course he does, especially because Mário Freitas has a name and hates to be provoked my nameless cowards! Will he ever stop? Probably not, it seems he has too much time on his hands. Will I say "Yes, sir!"? Fucking no! He just picked on the wrong target. He drove too much people away from Barbelith. If he wants to drive me away, he'll have to have me banned.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:15 / 10.12.08
I'm going to put forward a proposal to lock this thread because it has totally disintegrated and it makes everyone involved look bad. Everyone. If it goes through maybe someone would care to start a new topic and discuss the comics without resorting to personal attacks and accusations of internet illiteracy. If it doesn't go through by all means keep going...
 
 
Neon Snake
09:25 / 10.12.08
I don't really see how a lock and a restart will help matters.

The last couple of things Haus posted have been entirely comic-related; MFreitas decided to forget his idea of ignoring Haus, and start the row all over again.

Regardless of which party is right or wrong, I see no reason why this would not continue on a new thread.
 
 
MFreitas
10:00 / 10.12.08
Is his ongoing PERSONAL acusation of "moronic trolling" anywhere related to the comic?
 
 
Neon Snake
10:18 / 10.12.08
No, that'll be related entirely to you.
 
 
MFreitas
10:19 / 10.12.08
Which makes your previous post a blatant lie or probably only a "Oops! I got caught!".
Thank you for confirming my assumption.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:23 / 10.12.08
Freitas, look up the page. Haus wrote two posts completely comic-related, and then you decided that instead of ignoring him, like you'd indicated you would, you would carry on, to which he responded in kind, with "You're not very good at this ignoring lark, are you?"
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:48 / 10.12.08
The trouble with all this ('Batman' that is, not this thread) is that I find myself waiting for the interview on Newsarama or wherever, in which Morrissey explains what it was all about, or not.

There's every chance he'll lay into the various conditions people who didn't 'get it' may or may not (hopefully not) suffer from; I can live with that - what's harder to swallow is the feeling that it should all be there, in terms of meaning, sub-text etc, on the page. And I'm really not sure if it is.
 
 
Benny the Ball
12:21 / 10.12.08
Is GM's writing becoming lazier? Does he expect the artist to do the work, and then the reader and then an interviewer rather than actually making the effort to have the book itself tell the story?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:53 / 10.12.08
Given how tetchy he got about reluctance to grasp and accept instinctively that there are two Darkseids, one of whom killed and one of whom was killed by Orion, I feel there may be a bit of anomie.
 
 
vajramukti
13:25 / 10.12.08
well, I think grant might be annoyed by the double standard that gets applied to his writing at times. some people are agressively committed to the non-linear, highly indeterminant, tension of ambiguities element of his work, and get pissed when things are too literal, while others insist that everything must be utterly clear at first glance and that grant must be losing his faculties if they don't get it right off the bat. sometimes it's the same people saying both types of things.

I've found that while things are seldom 'obvious', the first impression I get after a careful reading is usually the one he intended to give, in those cases where it's possible to know, becuase he said so. or else my impression is borne out by latter issues or whatever.

I cannot recall ever being completely baffled, and I find it hard to believe that any intelligent person would be at a loss for a coherent reading of events in most of grant's works.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:39 / 10.12.08
Certainly, the tie-in to the end of 'Final Crisis' seems a bit much. Even if (and this is very much a hypothetical, of course) you feel, as a reader, that 'Final Crisis' is a series you're just not interested in, you still have to buy the thing (all seven, quite severely delayed issues of it) to make sense of the final, until the next one, fate of Bruce Wayne.

It does seem as if he's taking advantage a bit of his loyal audience here. That loyal audience being ... us. There's a couple of people on Millarworld, plus, one assumes, his wife, family and friends, but apart from that, who loves him more than we do?

(It's a lot of other things, or at least it used to be, but when all's said and done, Barbelith is still the interweb's number one Grant Morrison fansite).

So must he use us so roughly? What have we ever done to him?

Apart from, you know, that one time.

Thinking about it (and I don't want to play the blame game here - it's just a theory, after all) one could arguably trace back a slight decline in Grant's work to ... that incident. Was that the point when he stopped caring as much? I'm guessing a lot of ASS must have been in the can by then; 'Batman' on the other hand, seems to have been written more on the hoof.

Could it be that somebody on this board (as I say, I don't want to name names) broke Grant's heart? To the point where he's now, tacitly, taking his revenge?

Could it be that the real hand in the Black Glove is nearer than we think?

Obviously, it wouldn't have made sense to a wider readership if Dr Hurt had announced, at the end, that he wasn't really Thomas Wayne, or even the Devil, that he was actually someone far darker. But all the same, I wonder if that mightn't have been what Grant was trying to get at?

Well, it's just an idea. But friends, family etc aside (as if they matter!) who knows more about Grant than we do? And yet it must seem, at times, like we set out to destroy him ...
 
 
Speedy
13:58 / 10.12.08
Yes, it could be laziness, sloppiness or crankiness. Mad revenge must be considered a possibility also.

I find myself in the habit lately of giving the latest comic (pretty much only Morrison these days) a quick read before immediately firing up Jog, Callahan, Singer, Mindless Ones and the rest (Barbelith too!) to find out what it was about on its multiple (of course!) levels.

I suspect this tendency might be common in other readers, and tried to argue way upthread that GM might be deliberately exploiting it as part of his storytelling armoury.

I should disclose that, in the days when comics had letter columns, I would often read LOCs before the comics themselves, and more avidly, so I suppose my disposition leans towards reader participation. Lean too far that way though, and criticism, commentary and speculation becomes - the dreaded - fanfiction. I suppose some form of critical consensus eventually settles the matter, or doesn't.

Reading that 10-part ASS interview (at Newsarama?), I was kind of relieved that the Lex/Quintum stuff wasn't "definitively" resolved. Likewise the Black Glove non-reveal (in story and so far anyway) in Batman. Lets us play a little longer, at least until we get tired of it and need our naps.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:03 / 10.12.08
Is GM's writing becoming lazier? Does he expect the artist to do the work, and then the reader and then an interviewer rather than actually making the effort to have the book itself tell the story?

I think the artist needs to do about half the work, regardless of what people might feel -- this is comics, which is words and pictures. While I can certainly see a lot of flaws in Morrison's writing, I think the art plays a big part. The reader...well...there's a debate in that which could be played out. The writer/artist/reader work ratio might make for an interesting discussion in its own thread, actually.

The interviews, well, that's Morrison being lazy. As much as I love-love-love All-Star Superman, I absolutely would never expect interviews and hype to help me understand it. That's on me and that's on Morrison & Quitely. If there needs to be an interview (which is something quite different than academic works on the subject, I mean the writer actively explaining shit) to actually clarify narrative points, then the work wasn't successful.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:00 / 10.12.08
well, I think grant might be annoyed by the double standard that gets applied to his writing at times. some people are agressively committed to the non-linear, highly indeterminant, tension of ambiguities element of his work, and get pissed when things are too literal, while others insist that everything must be utterly clear at first glance and that grant must be losing his faculties if they don't get it right off the bat.

That isn't a double standard, though. It's two separate standards being applied to the same thing by disparate sets of people. It is not a double standard, but simply two incidences of standards. Even if people want both at the same time, that isn't a double standard. It's just a bit confused. If people expect it of him but not of Geoff Johns (GEOFF! JOHNS!), that's a double standard. Or possibly just realism.

However, I'm not sure how much of the commentary, certainly the comments here, relate to demanding either obscurity or complexity - again, there is a danger of seeking to defend the boy Morrison's unsullied skin from cruel javelins and slingshots that do not actually exist. I think, near as I can tell, that the problem here is that readers have understood the whole thing pretty well. They generally thought that the Batman of Zur-Enn-Ah was pretty awesome, but then that the closing episodes of Batman R.I.P failed to deliver the happy finish one might have hoped. Most obviously, two things that one might reasonably have expected - not least because the marketing solemnly claimed that they would happen - did not. Dr. Hurt's identity was not shockingly revealed (it's a tulpa), and Batman was not changèd forever. He did not R, in P or otherwise. He got buried alive, but that's cheap. He was on a helicopter when it blew up, but we already know that he is fine not only because of the demands of the medium but because we are, good personal friends of Grant as we are, reading Final Crisis. The finish is, not to put too fine a point on it, flubbed.

And then, next up, we have "Last Rites", which is a lot of fun, but involves Batman in a cellar being mindwronged. Which we've already done in the previous story. Which is why the reference to the two Darkseids as emergency author-generated fanwank to explain the disparity between the end of Countdown (which was, let's remember, specifically meant to lead in to Final Crisis) and Final Crisis is relevant, although with the proviso that Morrison is writing both Batman R.I.P and Final Crisis, and so this strange stutter makes rather less sense, compositionally speaking. And, you know, it's great that true dedication can find virtue in all this - alba ligustra cadunt, vaccinia nigra leguntur and all that - but I don't think that the issue is unfair expectations of comprehensibility or otherwise.
 
 
Neon Snake
20:08 / 10.12.08
I don't agree that RIP didn't deliver the happy ending that I, personally, hoped for - I'd say that it did. Morrison's Batman is not only made of the proverbial win, but he's now explicitly transcended prep time to the point that he can actually, oh boy, improvise on the fly. One of those small things that probably needn't have wanted pointing out, but pleases me none-the-less.

There is a very valid concern that the ending was not what we expected. Indeed, very much not what we were led to believe by various over-excited interviews..

I'm more bothered that now, more than ever, the situation in 682 doesn't put me in any concern for Batman's safety, since Morrison, only a week or two previous, made it absolutely clear that Batman can get out of anything at all, through either having seen it coming and practiced his escape twenty times a day, or through relying on his ingrained instincts to see him clear.

And being put through the mindwringer by Darkseid's minions? Good stuff, but we've seen him get out of that one before in Rock Of Ages. It's not even a new one.
 
  

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