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Grant Morrison's Batman

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20:29 / 30.11.08

I've noticed very few people have picked up on hurt's curse that he lays on batman. 'the next time is the last' and all that. can we presume that batman suits up for final crisis and gets worked over really bad by desaad, to the point he hangs it up? or he just pwns everyone so bad he doesn't have anything else to do?

I'm more and more convinced that the next two issues will really tie this run up and lay the groundwork for the next, if there is one. it's probably taking the overspill from RIP as well. there's surely a reason why it's hitting a week after the last issue, with that huge space of ambiguity the RIP finished on.

05:01 / 01.12.08

His "death" was the entire arc, and this issue was his glorious rebirth

Indeed, almost everyone dies and is reborn in this series. Ra's al Ghul faces the hells of the Bardo, just like Bruce, but he can't bear to penetrate through to the other side so he's doubly determined never to die again. The Joker undergoes death and rebirth within his own brain, and reacts in the way suitable for Batman's antithesis--instead of being stripped down to his core self and coming back more him, he surrenders everything and comes back a completely different person. Mayhew dies, apparently, and comes back. So does Thomas Wayne...maybe. Even Damian gets into the act, with his close-to-full-body transplant after the Gibraltar explosion.

As for Batman himself: looking back, Morrison's very first issue has a dying Bats apparently betray his principles, before the real one swoops in to deal with things. (Hence the artistic choice to have the first of the three Bat-Ghosts wearing the standard uniform, I think.) Subsequent death-rebirth instances: in Thogal, in the original sensory-deprivation experiment with Hurt, in the Third Ghosts's torture chamber beneath the police station, and arguably under the boot of the Second Ghost.

The idea seems to be same as with Mister Miracle; by the time Batman actually faces the Black Glove, he's "died" so many times it's become commonplace. He takes yet another loss of his ego and his loved ones completely in stride. If there's any deep meaning to the "fate worse than death" line, I think it's hopeful--Bruce discovers that tons of things are worse than death, because death just isn't that big a deal.

19:54 / 01.12.08

This is a bit like the 'New X-Men' thread, all over again.

I mean I love him too, but what is it about Grant's work that makes otherwise perfectly, or at least relatively rational people on the interweb jump through mental hoops to try and fill in the gaps in what may well just be lazy writing that he couldn't be arsed to finish properly, because he was stoned?

Okay, he's officially 'straight edge' these days, but on the strength of 'Batman R.I.P.' I think not.

My theory is that Thomas Wayne was a satanist who sold his son's soul to the Devil for reasons yet to be explained (and actively contradicted in the text - 'Joe Chill was supposed to shoot you too' or whatever it was; I'm paraphrasing) and that Bruce might be sufficiently depressed by that to give up being Batman until he's finished with rediscovering himself in Tibet, or dealing with his back problems, again. But it seems like he's being doing a lot of that, recently.

I suppose the Devil would lie, but then again, hasn't everyone in this series (apart from Bat-Mite) been full of bewildering duplicity? What's Jessica Jet's problem with Bruce, for example? It's never explained.

Anyway, meds kicking in now (or, if you'd rather, I have to go out) so, more on this later. I'll leave you with a horrible thought though; if Thomas Wayne was possessed by the devil when Bruce was conceived, how did Thomas, as a medical man, and occultist, approach the matter? 'Ouch' as they say.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

05:02 / 02.12.08

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!1! YOU AM MISSING TEH POINT!! It's ferpectly obvious!1! I can eksplane it most clearly by waving my willy in your face!!

21:09 / 02.12.08

I think this is actually a mostly fun story that is hamstrung by the weird decision to structure it as a whodunnit, without ever revealing the villain. The adventure parts of the story move along pretty nicely, the Batman of Zurr-en-Arr and Joker bits are great, but it keeps turning on this Who Is The Black Glove question which is really hugely irrelevant, as far as I can tell. If it was just about how Dr Hurt had laid this elaborate trap for Batman, who was forced to use his back-up personality, etc., I think it would read a lot better.

I mean, it's great that some of you are really excited about the implication that it might be the devil, but to me, that's a pretty weak ending to a mystery (and explosion, no-body doesn't do help much, either).

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:20 / 02.12.08

I think -- and I know this will leave me open to accusations of defending Morrison or making excuses for flaws in the text -- that there's something to be said for leaving an unsolved mystery, something for the Black Casebook, because Batman's crusade is as much a never-ending battle as Superman's, and the pin down the solution to the question would kill it a little bit (much like the Bat-Mite tension). Having a mystery that goes unsolved reminds us that they can't kill off Batman (because he only really dies when it's over and done, the mystery, the war, et cetera).

That, I think, might have contributed to the thinking behind this, Jackie. Which isn't to say that it's successful necessarily, and I can't say I have even an inkling of what Jet's motivations might be, for example (beyond being, yawn, another anti-Batman figure).

Maybe the straight-up weird adventure aspects worked better for you, but you have to give the man props for working with the detective aspect, even if unsuccessfully -- quite often, I feel like writers forget that aspect of the character altogether (I'm staring daggers at Nolan and Goyer, for example).

Wish the trades would hurry up and come out so I can catch up on this.

01:52 / 03.12.08

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it says much for the detective aspect when the conclusion is the world's greatest detective going, "No, it's you, Mayhew," and the villain going, "Um, actually, no."

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

03:49 / 03.12.08

I imagine Batman's rather nonplussed after that particular exchange. Does anyone point at the reader and exclaim, "Was the Black Glove...YOU?" I'm picturing Commish Gordon making a gun with his fingers and doing it.

(Aside, and this may have been covered but I don't remember seeing it -- was it established anywhere that former Commissioner Vane was in any way related to the architect of Vanity?)

07:56 / 03.12.08

All said and done (though with 2 issues to go yet), it's becoming increasingly obvious the quality of Grant's endings, or at least the number of tied loose ends, depends greatly on the quality of the artist and the editor related to the projects.

There's one name in common between NXM and Batman: Mike Marts, the editor. A rather poor editor indeed, uncapable of such basic things as guaranteeing to pair Morrison with great or at least good artists. We had Quitely, of course, and Leon, and JHW3, but we also had a subpar Ethan Van Sciver, a rushed Kordey, some of the worst Bachalo ever, and the non-existant storytelling of Silvestri. Then we had Tony Daniel, not that great of a draftsman and a even worse visual narrator. Not to mention Ryan Benjamin...

Furthermore, it was blatantly evident Marts couldn't even understand what Morrison was doing half of the time. He's basically the ultimate fanboy turned editor; the guy who must thinks he did us all a big favour putting Alex Ross on covers...

I loved NXM and quite liked Batman, but I always have the feeling this was meant to be legendary but became only good. Just compare it to ASS...

09:13 / 03.12.08

If that's right, Mike Marts should be tied up, alone, in a dark room, and then put through some serious, personal changes, courtesy of a leather hose.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

14:17 / 03.12.08

And three Mike Marts doppelgangers?

15:30 / 03.12.08

I don't see why not.

16:02 / 03.12.08

I thought the ending to New X-Men was pretty fantastic, both the fractured insanity of Planet X's final moments, and the future history of "Here Comes Tomorrow." HCT in particular is just fantastic as both a great X-Men story, and one of my favorite future stories in general.

But, I would agree that it has the same rushed, tear down the walls quality that Batman #681 does, or that Seven Soldiers #1 does. All of Grant's recent endings seem to have too much story to tell, where another writer might spend a whole issue on the Club of Heroes defending the city, Grant just throws the idea out there and lets us imagine what happened. I think it works fine in this case because we don't really need to see another fight, that moment between Robin and Beryl is the emotional core of the storyline, the rest would just be going through the motions action stuff.

Ryan Benjamin's art was pretty awful, but at least with Batman, they managed to keep artists who are of the same style. I wish that style had been different to begin with, but I didn't think much of Kubert's art, and I just don't get the people who think Kubert was great, but can't stand Tony Daniel. I don't love either of them, but I think Daniel actually enhances the effect Morrison was going for on RIP, by rendering purple/yellow suited Batman and Batmite in this very "gritty" Image style it becomes even more surreal.

In the case of this storyline, I think the major problem was with the hype, Grant's own and DC's. Reading the text itself, no one should think that Batman died in the helicopter crash, and it should also be clear that Batman will never die. Much like with the end of NXM, Grant knows things will never really change, so why not fuck with them as much as possible while he's there.

huckleberry glove soup

16:25 / 03.12.08

While there may be someting to be said about Daniels reflecting a Pop Art sensibility that's been pretty evident throughout this entire GM run (how many iconic Bat-moments have been lifted and remixed both visually and narratively here?) there is NO WAY ON ANY MULTIVERSAL EARTH he is even in the same class as Andy Kubert.

Daniels has zero emotional range on any of his characters. At points Robin has looked just like Bruce, Damian looked about 35 in one of the earlier issues where he's training with Merlin... Dude doesn't even grasp basic storytelling principles. Imagine the weird look Bruce gives Jet after he realizes she's in on the plot under Daniels' pen instead of Kubert's. Never woulda picked up on anything being off about that scene at all.

The grids wrapped around the buildings in RIP? I' pretty sure that's supposed to be ZEA Bats looking out at the street grids/blocks with human lives growing around them like vines instead of large neon imaginary checkerboards in the air...

Guy is barely functionable for a writer as nuanced in his scripts as Morrison.

Daniels/Loeb... I'm sure they'd make a wonderful pair.

Essential Dazzler

17:37 / 03.12.08

The grids wrapped around the buildings in RIP? I' pretty sure that's supposed to be ZEA Bats looking out at the street grids/blocks with human lives growing around them like vines instead of large neon imaginary checkerboards in the air...

Have you read Morrison's script for that issue?

huckleberry glove soup

18:10 / 03.12.08

ED, no I haven't.

But I've read the dialogue over again after plowing through most of the run the last few nights (out of order for some strange reason, by arcs). Here goes:

Gargoyle: "Hang around for years you get to see the LAYOUT. People make the CITY and the city makes the PEOPLE."

ZEA Bats: "GRIDS."

Gargoyle: "See how lives grow AROUND the grids like vines on a trellis."

ZEA Bats: "Of course." "Birnley, NEWTOWN, Jerold--The streets where Batman was BORN." "A checkerboard, a BLUEPRINT, a machine designed to MAKE Batman."

It reads like Bats is seeing Gotham as a whole, a machine laid out in grids/city blocks. Pulling back and looking at its overall structure, function. Not imaginary checkerboards wrapped around a few skyscrapers.

18:19 / 03.12.08

much better artists than tony daniel or andy kubert have balked at grant's panel descriptions.

22:19 / 03.12.08

Yes, but I'm with Glove Soup. Daniel doesn't even compare to Kubert, who may not be great, but is definitely good. He's a solid draftsman and a pretty good storyteller.

Oh, and I just read 682. Lee Garbett turns out to be pretty decent and I thought the issue itself was very enjoyable.

huckleberry glove soup

03:17 / 04.12.08

After spoiling the first ish of Last Rites for myself, I'm quite convinced that the first page of RIP and a few of the last pages insures we aren't going all Dallas with the last few years of GM"s run, right?

13:04 / 04.12.08

I wouldn't bet the farm on that if I were you, Mr Glove.

While it would be ... controversial, let's say, if it turned out that not just 'RIP', but the entire run has been happening in Bruce's hot, stinging brain while he's being tortured by Darkseid over in 'Final Crisis', that does seem to be the theory du jour on Millarworld, and other such louche places. And in a way, when you think about it (to paraphrase 'The Filth' - is GM necessarily above re-using ideas he perhaps feels didn't get enough attention last time round? I'm guessing not) it does make sense.

The only way, really, that Dr Hurt adds up is if he's Bruce's secret *coff* dark side ... d'you see what I did there? Some might say that I should get out of the house more often, and perhaps they have a point.

huckleberry glove soup

17:25 / 04.12.08

Then how do we explain our little french hunchback crossing over from evil dream machine to reality?

17:31 / 04.12.08

Well, but when did he do that?

18:34 / 04.12.08

well, we seem to be crossing over between bruce's real memories, alfred's memories, and whatever distortions are being inserted by the lump. it's another ambiguity trip. we have to decide what's canon and what's not.

18:55 / 04.12.08

I'm now prepared to believe that whatever odd, apparently off-note tics were running through this series were actually planned. That it was supposed to be like this, and that GM wasn't totally leathered in his local gin mill when he came up with the material.

It's a u-turn, but isn't life about those? Cars crashing into each other needlessly, uselessly ...

19:13 / 04.12.08

Right, I really, really enjoyed that (more than 681, which I liked, but, you know, the art, probably editorial interference...)

19:23 / 04.12.08

I guess bruce's ordeal here will be a catch all for any other strange element of the bat mythos that can't be squared up otherwise.

I notice he alluded to alfred's death and rebirth as the outsider here, and sort of implies that this was bruce's mind reacting to the presence of the lump.

I really like the dick grayson elements, and it's astute to point out how he saved bruce from his own death wish. you can see grant shifting focus over to dick, now that he's going to be the high flying laughing batman, with crazy assassin horus-child damien riding shotgun.

huckleberry glove soup

20:24 / 04.12.08

Grandma,

What I'm getting at here is if Le Bossman is a COMPLETE figment of the imagination/psyche tank, then the scenes where he encounters the new Bats and Robin in Gotham 6 months later are what, hallucinations as well?

I think Grant and DC are being particularly coy about the whole situation and are intentionally screwing with fandom for a while with this whole Bobby Ewing situation...

I hope.

00:50 / 05.12.08

well, they also had all the bat books for a number of months referring to the events in RIP, so I think le bossu and co are safely in continuity.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

04:11 / 05.12.08

What I'm getting at here is if Le Bossman is a COMPLETE figment of the imagination/psyche tank, then the scenes where he encounters the new Bats and Robin in Gotham 6 months later are what, hallucinations as well?

I think you're confusing two not even remotely similar characters.

08:54 / 05.12.08

It would certainly be shit if Le Bossu turned out to be a Lump inspired hallucination, but thankfully that's not going to happen.

huckleberry glove soup

16:16 / 05.12.08

IMS,

I am talking about 1 character and 1 character only. Le Bossu.

You know the first page in RIP where the "new" Batman and Robin rescue the dangling cop from Le Bossu and his Gargoyle henchmen (that supposedly takes place Six Months after the events of the arc)?

Yeah, that guy.

IF the GM run is all in Bruce's head, how does THAT GUY manifest in Gotham to terrorize Gordon's boys?

But I'm with Boboss. I don't think RIP was purely hallucination.

19:43 / 05.12.08

er dude i think only the first page is six months later it's pretty clear

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

20:56 / 05.12.08

I'm trying to figure out the idea RIP was all in his head came from in the first place. RIP makes a nice tidy little circle of things.

The current Final Crisis tie-in two parter however? Well, that one's obvious.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:02 / 05.12.08

When the creator of Batman, Denny Crane, had Batman say "I must BECOME a BAT", he wanted the next 200 panels to be a Bruce Wayne concentrating really hard, trying to become a bat. Grunting, sweating, shouting "wings! Grow wings! Ears!". He was totally let down by the artist, Denny Crane, who just didn't get him at all.

I can see why this run on Batman is appealing to people who don't have expectations of novelistic narrative - that is, people who largely don't read books. It's not so much a narrative as the outcome of an editor saying to Grant Morrison, "Grant, you've got a finite amount of time here. Write down absolutely everything you think of when I say... Batman. We'll get an artist to put some flesh on it". Whereupon down sits Morrison, thinking "Oh! Alfred! Thomas Wayne! That brilliant one where Batman and Batwoman are half-teleported to space, and the aliens are defeated by salt or something... the Knight and the Squire! Woo!". Put in a few narrative nips and tucks, and you have something bright and busy which the kids can stare into, identifying patterns in the fire.

23:08 / 05.12.08

So let me get this straight - Morrison's Batman run is only being enjoyed by people who don't read novels?

Despite regular comic fans across the web being disappointed? Despite it still selling very well? Despite it being covered in UK newspapers that almost never cover comic books? Despite GM being a writer whose credentials are certainly literary, if not literally novelistic until The If is published? Despite the general opinion that GM writes long-form pieces, writing "for the trade"? Despite GM saying that the run was meant to be considered a novel? Despite its use of literary techniques such as unreliable and multiple narrators, intertextuality and ambiguity?

And if you think an ambiguous ending is not novelistic - 1984, Wise Blood, One Flew Over The Cookoo's Nest, The Catcher in the Rye, etc..

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