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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
00:16 / 06.12.08
So let me get this straight - Morrison's Batman run is only being enjoyed by people who don't read novels?

Nope. I never said "only", I didn't say "enjoyed" and I said "books". It appears you are defeated by small blocks of text on the Internet. Not sure how you'd get on with a book.

Despite regular comic fans across the web being disappointed?

See "only", above.

Despite it still selling very well?

I have no idea what that is attempting to prove. That quite a lot of people who buy comics don't read books?

Despite it being covered in UK newspapers that almost never cover comic books?

A stringer on Metro reads comic books. They did the death of Captain America as well. I'm afraid that doesn't confer cultural capital, which I think is what you are trying to claim here.

Despite GM being a writer whose credentials are certainly literary, if not literally novelistic until The If is published?

No idea where you get that from. "Lovely Biscuits" isn't very good. Nor are his uncollected short stories. He's one of the best superhero comic book writers working. That's enough. he's not going to love you more if you start making things up about him. Well, he might, but it will be a fragile, empty love.

Despite the general opinion that GM writes long-form pieces, writing "for the trade"?

No idea what this means either. Clearly not true in many cases, including much of his best work, which was produced before the idea of "writing for the trade" was meaningful. Kill Your Boyfriend, We3 and Seaguy manifestly not "long form".

Despite GM saying that the run was meant to be considered a novel?

Oh, well, if GM said it.

Despite its use of literary techniques such as unreliable and multiple narrators, intertextuality and ambiguity?

Oh, lordy. He said "intertextuality". I for one am cowed.

And if you think an ambiguous ending is not novelistic - 1984, Wise Blood, One Flew Over The Cookoo's Nest, The Catcher in the Rye, etc..

I didn't mention ambiguity. You did. Possibly after reading 1984, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and the Catcher in the Rye you could actually read my post?

Impressed, however, by the way you selected four books that have been turned into films, and even more impressively two which featured Brad Dourif. Was there a double bill?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:32 / 06.12.08
Put in the simplest possible terms: I don't get where the hostility is coming from, but I wouldn't mind if it was competent, or even amusing, hostility based possibly on some sign that a single page of the work notionally under discussion has actually been read. I'm not expecting miracles.
 
 
SiliconDream
01:02 / 06.12.08
I can see why this run on Batman is appealing to people who don't have expectations of novelistic narrative - that is, people who largely don't read books.

So people who read novels automatically expect all other art forms to follow the same conventions?

Damn, I'm glad I'm illiterate then.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:08 / 06.12.08
Apparently not! It turns out that it is a novel, because it has ambiguity! And intertextuality!

Oy.
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:14 / 06.12.08
I'm pretty much with Haus on this one - I keep really enjoying lots of the isolated moments in the comics (Bat-Hamlet and Alfred wondering what would have happened if nothing had flown in the window that night, etc.), but the overall structure leaves me cold. And it's got nothing to do with endings being ambiguous, either. (It's been a long time since I read Cuckoo's Nest, 1984, or Catcher, but none of those actually have ambiguous endings, do they?)
 
 
simulated stereo
08:25 / 06.12.08
I quite enjoyed RIP, but Haus made me laugh.
 
 
MFreitas
09:24 / 06.12.08
Did he? I just saw a pattern... Am I suffering from apohenia?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:08 / 06.12.08
Apophenia. I think it's probably a tulpa, though.

I can't actually think of many less ambiguous endings than 1984. Unless, I suppose, you think Winston Smith is faking it, and is going to grab a blaster from on one of the guards and be like BZZT! BZZT! BZZT! and Big Brother is like AAARGH! and Winston Smith is like DIE DIE DIE and Julia is like OH! WINSTON! and then Big Brother turns out to be a SKRULL!

That would be different.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:49 / 06.12.08
Am I suffering from apophenia?

All of us who thought the Batman run sucked had better start looking into mental disorders and deciding which one we're most likely to have. Because there must be something crimped, tainted, askew or just missing from our brains if we couldn't process the metaphors of the comics. Schizophrenics couldn't get The Filth IIRC, aphasics hated Seven Soldiers, the catatonic community disliked The Authority so much that the writer gave up sobbing...

The interviews are due shortly. I'm betting Grant accuses anyone critical, anyone who thought Damien was the worst addition to the Bat-mythos in years and was annoyed that the Black Glove was never revealed, of having autistic spectrum disorder.
 
 
vajramukti
13:42 / 06.12.08
am I the only one who is slightly disturbed by the air of thwarted romanticism that seemingly surrounds discussion of GM's work? I only stop in here once in a while and it's really kind of creepy. some folks sound like he threw you out on the street in your underpants. I dunno. maybe he did.

I keep hearing how barbelith has outgrown it origins, but this morbid obsession seems to hang in there. He was a powerful influence on my formative years, and I even met the guy, and made a small ass out of myself, I'll admit. But if I ever start to sound so SO ironic as I choke back tears of blood over the keyboard, I hope someone close to me would notice and smack me upside the head.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
15:58 / 06.12.08
S
L
O
W

C
L
A
P
.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:04 / 06.12.08
Right, I want everyone in this thread to file out past me. I will decide who is worthy of continuing to talk about these things, and those who should never be allowed to speak again for fear that their stupid will burn people's ears.

huckleberry glove soup, I don't see this ending well for you.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
20:20 / 06.12.08
Yeah, I can see why. I spend most of my time talking about the comic and not insulting people who enjoy it...

I get it, though. The trick is to not actually discuss the work yourself, the trick is to mock the level of discussion taking place.

Some of us do read for the pure joy of plowing through pop entertainment.

Not because we want to fuck comic books or become psychic BFF's with the creators, or play naked swingball with them, or shit on other's opinions to make ourselves feel better.

We have fun with the books.

We are teh stupid.

KTHX.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:04 / 06.12.08
Well, the thing is that you haven't really discussed the book. You've talked about what happened in the book (roughly), and why any faults in the book certainly aren't the fault of the writer, and how shit the artists must therefore be. There is neither a critical awareness or any sense that there ought to be. I think this is what seems to be upsetting Vajramukti, and certainly has upset MFreitas to the point of moronic trolling - actually acting as if these works can be placed in a context and discussed as something other than a series of described actions, probably ultimately forming a tulpa or similar. Still:



Psychic BFFs.

Vajramukti - Barbelith did transcend its origins, for a while - it was full of, and attracted, smart people with a variety of interests through word of mouth, and the original people's interests broadened as they got older. However, a number of elements wiped most of it out, to the point where a few remnants cling like viruses on an asteroid, but people get here now by googling "Grant Morrison Invisibles" - it's chaos magicians and mind-blowed admirers. However, story for another day.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
22:50 / 06.12.08
"why any faults in the book certainly aren't the fault of the writer, and how shit the artists must therefore be"

Oh, let's play til I leave for the evening, sir.

Show me where I said or implied that. I pointed to one particular sequence where I feel the artist didn't quite synch up with the intentions behind the scene.

And I mentioned that Tony Daniel has shit storytelling abilities in general.

Seriously, all these psycho dramas you people think you're exposing behind people's posts are complete figments of your own fucking imaginations...

Grant Morrison usually creates comics I like. Kanye West usually creates music I like. Quentin Tarantino creates films I usually like.

I do not think they are infallable godlings, merely TALENTED artists that brighten my day with their work.

I don't want to write a term paper on this book, it works for me.

But next time you see your therapist, show her your personal pictures and print out your posts and ask her about what they really say about you, Haus.

You've contributed fuck all but insults in regards to the last two issues. Where are your critical thoughts, Haus?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:39 / 06.12.08
It's not all about you. old chap. For example. MFretias said:

All said and done (though with 2 issues to go yet), it's becoming increasingly obvious the quality of Grant's endings, or at least the number of tied loose ends, depends greatly on the quality of the artist and the editor related to the projects.

And:

Yes, but I'm with Glove Soup. Daniel doesn't even compare to Kubert, who may not be great, but is definitely good. He's a solid draftsman and a pretty good storyteller.

Other people existing, yes? I would have thought your time at the Bureau des étrangers would have given you a keen sense of the human condition.

It's a shame you have made this personal with your little fatbeard insults about therapists (oh, mental illness - what a funny, funny accusation), but since you managed to try to suggest that I should fly to Jersey (or take the ferry, I suppose - is there still a hovercraft service?) to have a fatbeard fistfight with you, it's not really surprising.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
23:45 / 06.12.08
Oh, I was gonna let it slide but:

Remember during Magical Negro when you dropped the:

It's all about respect. That's how we do in West Baltimore, son.

That Jersey line you're referring to was me flippin' your insult back at you.

I try to keep the funny going...not always a success.

Still, what's the point in fucking with people? If Barbelith has dissappointed you so, if you loathe watching your beloved turn tricks on the corner with the unworthy, why not just leave instead of pointlessly raging against the machine?
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
23:47 / 06.12.08
And forgive me for thinking you were speaking directly to me when you respond directly to me and use the word "you".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:10 / 07.12.08
It's all about respect. That's how we do in West Baltimore, son.

That Jersey line you're referring to was me flippin' your insult back at you.


That wasn't an insult. It was a statement about how we did it in West Baltimore, as part of an appeal for politeness in the face of MFreitas' moronic trolling. How on Earth can you read it as an insult? Is there something you need to resolve, deep in your own heart?
 
 
Automatic
00:23 / 07.12.08
What IS it about this thread?

Can't we just natter contentedly about the whys and wherefores of Batman comics without it turning nasty?
 
 
Benny the Ball
02:17 / 07.12.08
I'm filling in holes and actually visiting comic book stores again to get the Morrison run - I've skimmed through most of it, and read the latest issue (which I really enjoyed). For me so far it seems to be a series of attempts to have every Batman explained and living in the same world (kind of like the Planetary issue, but less literal) - but it still feels a little like GM doesn't particularly like the Batman character (not in the same way that he seems to like Superman, at least).

As I said, the latest issue was good in my opinion, mainly for feeling like there was direction to the idea - I don't think that the run will turn out to be a crazy dream, and must say I'm a little disappointed that what seemed to be the DCU being undone and rebuilt over the course of a few years now seems to be little more than the usual cash-cow, dark and moody (ie "real") nasty comic world that I'd had enough of - like there was a planned end to this and FC rather than the "nothing will ever be the same again" stuff we hear constantly. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this is all just an elaborate joke though.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:26 / 07.12.08
huckleberry glove soup I get it, though. The trick is to not actually discuss the work yourself, the trick is to mock the level of discussion taking place.

Nope, the trick is to just mock you.

Okay, hows about this? Knightfall was better than this, Bane was a more impressive villain than Hurt and his great idea was to just let out a load of villains from Arkham and work on the assumption that Batman would be stupid enough to try and round them up without taking any time to rest or to call in the other superheroes on the planet to help out. There were lots of nice moments and touches through Morrison's run but that was it. Now, maybe this story is aimed at 'new readers' who have only started reading Batman in the last few years and don't know what happened five, ten, fifteen years ago, but by using old things like ManBat, the League of Champs and so on, it's inviting those comparisons to be made. All-Star Superman was never in much real danger either, but it had heart, therefore Jimmy Olson becoming Doomsday to save Superman and then not letting people take photos of him when he was beaten mattered, Alfred reminding Bruce how to act like himself mattered, but Jezebel Jet being evil, really? Is that the best use of a character Grant could come up with?

All-Star Superman had brains and heart. Batman has brains but not much heart.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:24 / 07.12.08
Is Batman, as a character, too absurd to take seriously, or too serious not to take absurdly or something? It seems that a lot of writers are willing to suspend their disbelief for a lot of the characters in the DCU, but Batman seems stuck on a Dark Knight reset, unable to go a couple of issues without having it pointed out that he is the keenest mind in the body of the worlds greatest martial artist.

Personally I kind of find the Joker a very uninteresting character, I liked the idea that he reinvents himself, but for the most part he is a flimsy take on writer of the month's idea of ker-azy! So having him appear wasn't that great for me, but if the whole run is an attempt to distill the entire history of Batman down into a series of three part stories, then I understand him needing to be there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:17 / 08.12.08
Last Rites 1 was a fun read, certainly, but it did feel like it was crying out for invention - the gag about Batman being saved only by chance from being named after any of a number of nocturnal visitors feels very well-worn, and the actual plot - Batman is trapped inside his own mind by villains - is a pretty direct lift from GM's own Justice League of America series, where the Key did the same thing. This seems to make the whole Batman R.I.P thing a bit pointless, also - because Batman wasn't killed in the helicopter crash, and also the Black Glove didn't defeat Batman, and Batman isn't going to rest in peace because of the actions of the Black Glove - he's going to be basically fine, and then get captured by the minions of Darkseid and stuck in another bloomin' isolation chamber, bringing on another series of Grant Morrison dream sequences, which will ultimately, at the end of Final Crisis will mean that we get the Knightfall revisited bit with Tim Drake, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Hush divvying up t3h mant3l of t3h Bat. I'm rather hoping for Jason Todd, myself, since he has so far been Robin and Nightwing, and once he's done Batman is going to end up having to dress up as Batwoman just to feel. Just to feel anything.

So, the upshot of this is to make it clear that not only was Batman RIP's ending rushed and a bit incoherent, but it was also ultimately weightless. The shock of the revelation of the Black Glove's (non) identity was up there with Bendis breaking the Internet in half with Avengers disassembled - underwhelming. Lots of snappy lines and nice moments, but somewhat in want of a coherent line, and pretty clearly neutered by the demands of the great big crossover.
 
 
■
18:53 / 08.12.08
A stringer on Metro reads comic books.

I very much doubt they have stringers on Metro. No-one else does any more. Pretty sure they just have PA feeds they stick in boxes that fit.

Anyway, I did rather like that last issue with the frame of mind that maaybe the speculation above that the whole thing was a balancing of life/anti-life that no-one else could manage. With that (annoyingly speculative) concept in mind, I could see how Resting in Peace (not necessarily dying) could well be the key to the Final Crisis tie-in. he dosn't have to be the bad-ass Dark Knight any more. He can transcend it and beat the equation by declaring it redundant, a peace of mind that the bad guys can't break through. Again, though, that is layering on more than we're explicitly (or even implicity) given and it would be nice to see a little more structure there. The foregrounding of the Joker reinventing himself (back to the ooh, how old, idea of memeplexes) could be the key to breaking Anti-Life as it means that even if one will is broken the mind can just create a new one. Or something.

Like I say, a bit too much speculation. I liked Cliff with spider legs and a big cannon. Not much to argue with there.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:55 / 08.12.08
Surely the only way to do 'Batman' effectively (as it were!) is to play up the tension between the identities? If as Bruce Wayne he has to worry about the company, his girlfriends and so on, while at the same time having to go out at night and deal with the Joker or whoever, then there's a story.

I haven't followed Batman's adventures since the early Eighties, since Doug Moench's run, in fact, and all the romantic, psycho-sexual stuff to do with Catwoman and Nocturna - 'I have always loved women dark and dangerous, and so have never loved at all'. It was quite heartbreaking, I remember thinking, as Nocturna floated away at the end, in a balloon. Age very young, it was clear that he was never going to see her again ... I'm not saying get the trades, but it was fab stuff at the time.

Morrison has, arguably, been trying to alude to this late-Seventies, pre-'Dark Knight Returns' version of the character here, but is he that sort of writer, really? The stuff to do with Jezebel seemed telling - can he 'do' relationships, really? Or some point did he just give up and make her a villain, because he'd run out of interesting things to say, otherwise?

Apart from, maybe 'Oh baby, I'll love you till the sun burns out', or related. 'You and me, until the end'. Which is a plot-device he's in danger of over-using. In my humble, of course.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
01:15 / 09.12.08
I think Jett was used as a tool, a weapon aimed at Bruce's heart. Part of the point of Hh Batman is he overcomes and prepares for everything. I think Morrison was trying to showcase that while he is a romantic... Bruce gets Over It all rather quickly when he needs to. He has to. He's immune to emotional attack. Part of his process. He's gone through this whole femme fatale fetish cyclically and consistently over the years. He owns it by now. Batman has us all in a box. While the relationship might have been a little Beat Me Over The Head Obvious as a storytelling device, I think it plays fairly into the whole run's pop-pastiche approach. The whole opening arc at the Lichtenstein/Pop-Art benefit with a repositioned, motherly Talia throwing waves of remastered Ninja Man-Bats at us was a pretty clear indication of the over-all direction this run was taking. Ultimate Joker Re-Mix. Bane lite. Then Bat-Freind Revamp.

Everybody complains about the lame helicopter crash, but it's just an ode to the Joker "death" scene in A Death in the Family. Just like DCU #0 had the Killing Joke riff, The Bataman Bullet-to-the-chest was a Dark Knight lift. There is a scene Kubert snatched from Wrightson out of Batman: The Cult when a tore-up, bandaged Bruce springs from bed to swathe himself in boardroom testosterone.

Pop-Art. Big, explosive, all-encompasing, Super-Hero DJ remix comics exploring the entire popular Bat-Myth as we know it.

And if you don't get a thrill out of reading Batman coming face to face with The Devil itself and seeing Fear in its eyes is a fantastic way to end the Ultimate Batman Arc...

Then you're right, this run is not for you. You won't enjoy that.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
02:34 / 09.12.08
More blather.

You can read the run as a summing up of Bruce's entire urban-pop-shamanic Bat-Journey. He's attacked with the heartbreaker bad-girl he's always been a sucker for, his ultimate strength the Bat identity itself is usurped, assaulted and ultimately broken, he's dosed with weaponised poisons and street drugs, his Bat-Birthing origins and entire reason for being are assaulted, undermined and twisted. The Black Glove goes at Bruce through everything we associate with as a historic weakness of the Batman in our comics of yesteryear.

If we run with The Black Glove as self-generated/awakened Anti-Bruce Tulpa stirred by Thogal/Initiation are we that far off from familiar territory covered best IMO, in Sheman. Fanny's visionary time perception of the ripples that echo continually through her life. Initiation never ends. Bruce awakened an external Evil that identified itself through the lense of his very being. It couldn't fathom or defeat Bruce so it became obsessed with him, studied him, assaulted him positioned evils against him all his life, sought to shape his most vulnerable moments against him. I think that lives up to the hype. Read the subtle bits in the text, it can be inferred if it's not intentional.

I used to be a firm beleiver in The Batman is the real identity, but I think Bruce emerged from that cave owning even Batmanb (and creating a leaner-meaner ZEA version to replace him when Batman would fail him). Bruce is Beyond Batman now, me-thinks.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
02:56 / 09.12.08
Sorry for the triple-post but this is for Haus:

Honor Jackson as Shemanic self generated stand in for Luscious Fox/Tom O'Bedlam? The Bruce's guiding Batman enabler in the corporate world of Bruce Wayne (that's who's on the street when Honor finds him, lost, empty without his broken Batman identity Bruce Wayne. Just as Corporate Fox in contemporary/popular Bat-Myth provides Corporate Bruce the material or technological tools to become Batman, so does Homeless Honor provide Homeless Bruce to be ZEA Bats. Doesn't invalidate the magical negro argument, and if one were looking for it I'm sure it'd be somewhat applicable to the Morgan Freeman/Nolan film version, but puts a more resonant face on the character's specific Bat-origins/roots in RIP.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:50 / 09.12.08
huckleberry glove soup And if you don't get a thrill out of reading Batman coming face to face with The Devil itself and seeing Fear in its eyes is a fantastic way to end the Ultimate Batman Arc...

This. Did. Not. Happen. Yes, it would have been cool and fun, but I'm not prepared to track you down and crack your skull open so that I can ingest your brain and maybe read comics that only exist in your mind.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
04:58 / 09.12.08
It's on the page. Isn't it one of the Final Lines Batman is recording in the Black Casebook at the conclusion of RIP?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:13 / 09.12.08
I feel rather like I've done some Final Lines, to be honest. Liking the idea of jive-talking, finger-clicking blaxploitation-version Luscious Fox, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:03 / 09.12.08
Questions first, though, on your behaviour:

a) How on Earth do you get to "insult", as asked above?

b) How can you possibly say:

And forgive me for thinking you were speaking directly to me when you respond directly to me and use the word "you".

When you have directly above done your big first-person plural rant:

Some of us do read for the pure joy of plowing through pop entertainment.

Not because we want to fuck comic books or become psychic BFF's with the creators, or play naked swingball with them, or shit on other's opinions to make ourselves feel better.

We have fun with the books.

We are teh stupid.


?

I just don't get what you're going for, here, and I think, having done it in the Policy, you've used up the go where you say you aren't going to back this stuff up because you are better than that... where does one go? And what does one say?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:06 / 09.12.08
To tie this in: you seem to be trying simultaneously to be arguing that people are wrong not to be just having fun reading the book, but also that they are wrong not to be following the same exculpating reasons as you - this is a tulpa, that is an ode. However, there are often based on eccentric readings or leaps (it's a tulpa), or on an apparent desire to explain why dissenting opinions on the work are wrong based on a sketchy understanding of those opinions. I do not think your reading of Jackson, for example, adds anything much - indeed, the urban shaman taking the hero through a psychedelic journey at the and of which they can see the magical underpinnings of the city is a meat evocation of the point that the writer appears to be recycling his ideas at a faster than usual rate. Which comes back to the fundamental problem that it is very hard to talk with people who will not or cannot follow the narrative of the discussion (before we even get on to the story) - which, leaving the race issue aside, was what lead to Mfreitas' moronic trolling, and his anger at people not talking at a level he could manage (it's a tulpa) disrupted the thread horribly. I would probably not take him as a role model, were I you.
 
 
vajramukti
13:12 / 09.12.08
you really have no idea how tedious this is to an outside observer. how is it that the internet erases even the most elementary social skills in otherwise functional human beings? I really doubt everyone involved would be quite this presumptious and short with each other in 'real' life. it's only the safe distance of a computer monitor that lets anyone keep this ridiculous posturing up.

people will discuss shit at the level they want to discuss it. surely it's no great mystery that this board has and always will attract newer people who are not as schooled in the nuances of postmodern theory via barbelith. I've been coming here for years and years and I sure as hell can't keep up with the rules of the treehouse. I try not to let it bother me. I can certainly see how other people could get pissed off.

if the moderators/old school lithers feel others lack sufficient tact to play nice with the other kids, they should just fucking ban someone already and quit making the problem worse by trying to 'educate' others in how to behave. it never works. it just makes those who are supposedly responsible for maintaining order look feckless and incompetant, and contributes to the general decline of barbelith tht everyone keeps whinging on about.
 
  

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