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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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FinderWolf
13:25 / 30.05.08
And: the hunchback, I believe, calls Alfred "le bas." I just looked it up; "the foot"? Meaning Alfred is the root support for Bruce, the footsoldier/trusty footman...?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:42 / 30.05.08
"La bas", which can mean "down there" or "the damned".

It follows Durtal, a shy, censorious man, who is writing a biography of Gilles de Rais, the fifteenth-century nobleman, child-murderer, and supposed model for "Bluebeard." Bored and disgusted by the vulgarity of everyday life, Durtal seeks spiritual solace by immersing himself in another age. But when he meets the exquisitely evil Madame Chantelouve, he is drawn inextricably into the twilight world of black magic and erotic devilry in fin-de-siecle Paris.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:51 / 30.05.08
I think the Alfred getting caned thing was very, very...err...conspicuous if you ask me. Sure, it's emotionally resonant watching him get attacked, but why Alfred getting hurt on the last page? Why not Batman? And why send Alfred to the movies? What was the point of that from the writer's perspective?

So he could rendezvous with his baddie mates?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:54 / 30.05.08
If you want to know the significance of the mask, finder, just trawl this thread. It's all there.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:56 / 30.05.08
Oh, and the librium was delivered by the gargoyle in the sewer.
 
 
LDones
18:15 / 30.05.08
Great, concise dialogue pages with Jet and Bruce in the cave. It's a hand well played, and makes me feel pretty confident Jezebel's in on The Black Glove.

Likewise, I didn't think much of the Alfred theory until the very showy Beating Of The Butler page, which rings very suspiciously. I still doubt it's him, though he may be partially involved in the whole mess.

It's an issue that derives most of it's 'oomph' from suspense-y surprise shenanigans, but it's great to feel the whole pulpy mess coming together, and knowing that Talia, Merlyn, Damian, and the Joker are all still waiting in the wings to swoop in & ratchet the craziness up a bit more.

Batman's traditional villains are very protective of their relationship with him, I think.
 
 
vajramukti
21:38 / 30.05.08
the more I think about it, the alfred-as-outsider being the black glove makes more sense. it was alfred who prompted burce to go to london where he met jezebel, it was alfred who started poking holes in bruce's persona, it was alfred who transcribes the black casebooks, and mysteriously loses one of them. alfred who insists that bruce record everything that happens to him so he can read it. presumably these black casebooks would contain any incidents of alfred turning into a pasty white other-dimensional monster, which bruce more than likely doesn't remember at this stage, and wouldn't unless he read it again.

there's too many intimations of the supernatural/alien/who knows what for everything to be explainable otherwise, so something like this fits, especially if you tie it back to some seedy occult history of the wayne family and friends.

on a related note, did anyone notice the pictures of who I presume are marsha lamarr, mangrove pierce and john mayhew in this issue? pierce could very easily be a younger simon hurt. I'm betting on it at this stage. I'm even willing to go so far as to say that Lamarr may be an earlier form of jezebel jet. This "I feel like I've known you my whole life" thing is a bit ham fisted unless there's some reason why bruce might actually feel that way. Recognizing a friend of the family from childhood is one explanation. The fact their whole relationship seems carefully orchestrated to strike at the flaws in bruce's personality makes me wonder.

I'm expecting batman to hit bottom in short order, with his reputation in shambles, his mind shattered, the cave in ruins, alfred and jezebel turned on him, his whole life thrown into question, teetering on the edge of oblivion.

...then grant will have him drop into nirvikalpa samadhi, snap out of it, and he'll dust himself off, do the "almost went totally insane...HH," and kick everyone's ass.

mark my words.
 
 
LDones
22:06 / 30.05.08
I'm thinking Jezebel Jet is a plant for the Joker. Jezebel-Jet. Red-Black. Even her hair-color is a bright red. Showed up just after the Joker got shot in the face. I still think the Joker may be the Black Glove (whose logo on Bruce's screens in this issue is a black hand broken over a red background - a dead man's hand). He may even be Joe Chill's lost son, if that red-headed cop from the 3 Ghosts stories isn't.

I think the Club of Villains don't know who they're working for. I also don't think Dr. Hurt is who or what he seems to be, but that's just a little more baseless than the rest.

The Alfred as Outsider stuff is just too out there. He may be up to something unscrupulous, he may even be involved with the Black Glove in some way, but he's definitely not the guy. I don't think it's Bruce doing it to himself, and I don't think it's Thomas Wayne (though the Dead Man's Hand may be a joking reference to him being The Jet Mitten).

That big Joker face-card in the cave has been pretty omnipresent in the run, I'm thinking the Joker's behind all of it. At the very least, he's behind Ms. Jet.

I'm kind of looking forward to the red herrings flying fast and furious now in this book, until the ultimate reveal some months down the line.
 
 
vajramukti
22:12 / 30.05.08
I dunno. I thought the lovecraftian monster using bat-mite as a sock puppet was a bit out there too, so I'm not discounting anything at this stage. if they can trot out bat mite, the 'alien batman', robin dies at dawn, and lord knows what else and make it sensible, I think the outsider is too big a landmark on the history to completely ignore. I have every confidence grant can make it work.
 
 
vajramukti
22:22 / 30.05.08
and I think the joker's main role at this stage is to show up at the right moment and just go sick house on the club of villains. joker doesn't play well with others anymore, and I doubt he will appreciate a bunch of out of towners stealing his primary obsession away. the new joker has to make a statement, and I think they're it.
 
 
FinderWolf
23:34 / 30.05.08
I had the same thought about the possible significance of the line "I feel as if I've known you my whole life" as being something other than romantic drivel.

And yes, as stated earlier here, the Joker and perhaps other villains might very well be protective of Bats. He's THEIR adversary and these Black Glove blokes are just tossers who haven't been messing with Bats for 30 years and need to be shown their place.
 
 
vajramukti
00:23 / 31.05.08
well, now that wingman, dark ranger and the legionary are dead, I don't think we should be surprised if the joker does something "funny" with charlie caligula, lord kraken, and ned kelly. kraken is kind of cool and creepy though. I wouldn't mind if he hangs around.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
00:26 / 31.05.08
what a great fucking issue. message board discussion turned into a comic.

it's all out there right now. i too don't know what to think anymore. it's so out there it's cosmic [or about to be cosmic], and it's so mundane it's psychotic and *could* go back as far as the family dirty secrets being reopened, if that was not a plant by the Black Glove.

i don't like evoking again movies that may have informed the plot, but i couldn't avoid thinking about Brian DePalma's BLACK DHALIA. which was a classic 40s\50s mystery set in Hollywood complete with deranged families, sadistic producers, junkie actresses, revealing celluloid cans and a homage to THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, which inspired the creation of our favourite Arkhan detainee.

i don't think the Joker is the mastermind behind The Black Glove, though. cheating a little bit, it wouldn't be dramatic and hard enough. we have already seen the Joker many times in this run now, but not Thomas Wayne [unless the vintage Batman uniform wasn't worn by Bruce in the 'Joe Chill in Hell' issue].
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:28 / 31.05.08
I'm leaning towards the idea that it it might be Alfred again, now.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:32 / 31.05.08
But only in a half-hearted way.
 
 
MFreitas
12:23 / 31.05.08
"Ah, La Bas. Deep down where no one can find you."

I can't seem to shake the feeling this is about Alfred's schizophrenic second personality, ergo The Outsider. That wouldn't turn invalid all the good thoughts and actions he did throughout the years.

Very much in tune with the "(...)schizophrenic painters, 'outsider' work (...)" remark Bruce did early in the run, immediatley followed by "I think there's a hidden message here somewhere.".

And could "Farewell, faithful Butler!" mean "Welcome back, Outsider!"? What better way for the Black Glove to act than to hide within the consciousness of Wayne's most trusted allie/friend/confident?
 
 
vajramukti
15:42 / 31.05.08
ah. I caught the outsider reference the other day when I we re-reading, but I missed the bit after.

There's been this theme underlying the whole run, of alfred, and his love of lurid blood spattered mystery novels, to the point he actually gets bruce to write his adventures that way, for alfred's consumption. wouldn't it just be the most perfect meta-commentary to then say that alfred/the outsider has been prompting bruce's downward spiral for years, feeding on the darkness and excess of his adventures, preparing to devour him when he finally collapses under the weight of the horrific narrative that the outsider has thrust upon him?

and then the worst part: bruce will never totally crumble. he never does. he always finds a way to rebuild himself and keep going. dead partners, plagues, broken spines, lunatic replacements like azrael, earthquakes, psychotic mistrust, omac robots... he always comes back from it. he's the perfect victim who never realizes the pusher is feeding on him.

it sort of rationalizes all the stupid excesses of the last several decades and places it into a context. you could even push it so far as to say the outsider prompted bruce to become batman in the first place. a perfect vessel for his obsession.
 
 
MFreitas
15:54 / 31.05.08
It's almost too obvious: Morrison puts all the suspicion on Bruce Wayne, Jezebel Jet, Thomas Wayne or even the bat-computer, at the same time beating (apparently) the real mastermind senseless or even to (apparent, again) near death. Who would suspect a guy brutally beaten with baseball bats by his own henchmen?
 
 
The Natural Way
16:58 / 31.05.08
Indeed. And that 'la Bas' stuff......
 
 
--
00:49 / 01.06.08
I just have to say, that in my opinion, Morrison's "Batman" run is the most excited I've been over any of his projects since "The Filth." I started reading them at #655 to #666, but then for some reason I got sidetracked and months went by and I didn't keep up. But I re-read those first 8 ones again, and, curious, got issues #667-675 tonight. I thought that #675 was the most recent one but it appears I was wrong, I'll have to look for the newer issues again tomorrow.

So, "La-Bas" is mentioned? How weird, I've been doing a ton of research on that book as of recent, for a project I'm working on. That book of Huysmans' is filled with characters who feel like they're outsiders to the period of time that they exist in, so... h'mmm. This Alfred as the Black Glove theory really fascinates me. And he was an actor before becoming a butler, so that probably ties in also. Wow, I have to finish catching up on these.
 
 
Spaniel
13:24 / 01.06.08
As much as I loved this issue - and I did _love_ this issue - I'm thinking it's an odd editorial choice not to have named the Club of Villains. We all know their names, sure, but someone who hasn't been following the run would have no idea who they are.
 
 
vajramukti
16:21 / 01.06.08
it's taken me a long time to get my head around the idea that this is really a long form novel. I'm not sure how satisfying it is as single issues, or even in arcs, but as a whole story it's stunning. I'm afraid the interruptions of ostrander and the editorial nonsense of ra's al ghul really threw me off understanding this, and I presume a lot of others as well.

partly, I'm just not used to seeing this in mainstream comics, and certainly not in batman, of all things. amazing.
 
 
MrKismet
18:27 / 01.06.08
While sitting at the eye doc on Saturday with dilated pupils, I was thinking about this thread and all the speculations: Alfred, Thomas Wayne, The Outsider, an unknown living Wayne brother, the Joker, etc.

How about a living, sicko Thomas Wayne being The Joker?
Or the alleged missing Wayne brother?

My eyes are no longer dilated, but maybe my brain is.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:53 / 01.06.08
While it's recently become more enjoyable, isn't it basically just a load of bollocks that Morrissey's making up as he goes along?
 
 
Spaniel
09:33 / 02.06.08
Be shush
 
 
Spaniel
10:35 / 02.06.08
Finder, I share some of Of your anxieties in that Thomas Wayne being alive would demand a severe retcon a ways down the road. It's funny because ultimately nothing matters in an ongoing superhero title, but it seems to me that part of art of telling a good superhero story is to not draw too much attention to that particular problem, lest things start to _feel_ insignificant. Fucking with the status quo to the extent discussed is a risky move because it forces the reader to pay attention to the fact that big events in comics basically aren't. I mean, seriously, is there a reader out there who could maintain their suspension of disbelief at the return of Thomas Wayne - who won't be thinking well, that's for the chop in a couple of weeks - who won't be dragged out of the story? No there isn't.

I hoping daddy won't be back.
 
 
The Falcon
19:07 / 02.06.08
Well - you can start down that road, of course, but you do end up at the point of "why do anything at all, especially create any sense of drama with, e.g., death?" at its terminus. Many fans have reached this, witness the comicsinternet.
 
 
Spaniel
19:09 / 02.06.08
As I say, it's tricky, but it's a path that can be walked.

I believe!
 
 
Triplets
19:39 / 02.06.08
Boboss has done thogal and embraced his inner rainbow*. He's closer to Batman (and thus to George) than you will ever be, Botbeast. Trust the Bo!

*Bobossbearstare!
 
 
Spaniel
19:54 / 02.06.08
Sometimes we play rainbow wangball
 
 
The Falcon
19:59 / 02.06.08
I am on page 27 of the Tibetan book of the Dead.
 
 
Spaniel
20:10 / 02.06.08
Wangball
 
 
The Natural Way
23:01 / 03.06.08
I just want to say how much I loved the 'I'm not ready' line. It was so completely fucking moving. Batman's unprepared! He's actually scared! The way he's reduced to helplessness as a gang of baseball bat toting psychos surrounds him. That scene really was the money.

Horrifying.
 
 
The Natural Way
23:02 / 03.06.08
Oh, and Le Bossu is officially my new, favourite supervillain.
 
 
LDones
02:39 / 05.06.08
I'm fond of Le Bossu, yeah. Professional. Well spoken. Enthusiastic on the job.

He's also the only member of the Club of Villians (besides Dr. Hurt) who's said a single word. SUSPICION.

Still think Ms. JJ Red & Black is friendly with the evil bits.

Next issue's out June 25, and promises poor insane Bruce Wayne on the streets. And, presumably, rainbow creatures that threaten to turn him TWO DIMENSIONAL.

 
  

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