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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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MFreitas
09:18 / 24.05.08
From Morrison's interview to IGN. I think this settles any doubt:

"Yeah. Obviously the entire sequence where he's visualizing Robin and Nightwing dead is a fantasy that he's projecting on a Rorschach inkblot. As soon as we come out of that blot, the character holding the card – the doctor – is actually one of the members of the Club of Villains. And that moment we're back in the real world, so the Joker shouldn't have blood on him. A lot of that confused people, and the coloring confused people."
 
 
The Natural Way
20:03 / 24.05.08
The revelation that the Black Glove is a person really makes me feel that he's prolly Alfred.
 
 
FinderWolf
03:55 / 25.05.08
short preview of the next issue to be found here:

WHO IS THE BLACK GLOVE?!?!? WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?!?? YAAAAIIRRGHHH!!!
 
 
MFreitas
10:28 / 25.05.08
"Master Bruce. You know how easily infection gets in."

So very sublimish... But which on of them is Alfred mentioning?

"If I'm right, this thing goes back years and involve people my parents knew."

Like Bruce and Alfred...
 
 
Triplets
12:35 / 25.05.08
Close up of Alfred's hand right hand as Batman brushes him off. White glove.

The Batmobile didn't end up the way he imagined. Tim is gone for two days before he even realises... (and has to have it pointed out to him). Batman getting obsessed? Or more Splitbatman evidence?
 
 
MFreitas
13:04 / 25.05.08
Yes. Plus: there's more than one white glove shot on that page. And what's the white glove doing? Curing the infection in the Black Glove...

My money's drifting towards Bruce, now... But it's clearly one of them: whether Bruce or Alfred.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:50 / 25.05.08
yeah, those pages are even more spooky and seem to point at our favorite Butler. I just can't wrap my head around why Alfred would turn traitor... it seems impossible. It would be like doing a Spider-Man story where Aunt May leads a group of villains determined to murder Peter Parker (in the JMS world where she knew he was Spidey for a time). still, I trust the Morrison, ultimately.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
18:07 / 25.05.08
If it's not Alfred, GM is being awfully heavy-handed with the red herrings, I guess.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:52 / 25.05.08
In answer Finder above:

I think that might be because we assume Alfred has to care about the sanctity of life etc. as much as Bruce does, but butlers are there to tidy up. I imagine Alfred has a much more pragmatic approach. He sees Batman as absolutely essential to Gotham's survival, so he sets about designing a scheme that he hopes will revitalise him, but might kill him.
 
 
Triplets
21:14 / 25.05.08
Well, there's that line about how they will wound his soul and, if he's hard enough, he'll survive etc...

And Batman isn't just essential to Gotham's survival, but to Bruce's too, and Bruce is Alfred's ward as much as Robin is Batman's.

Let's not forget the fact that Alf might be conflicted about this, if he is the ultimate 'villain'. When he tells Robin that Bruce has a zen clarity few men do, you just have to trust him, he's letting on more than he thinks.
 
 
The Natural Way
21:25 / 25.05.08
I really don't see Alfred as Bruce's ward. Care to unpack that?
 
 
Triplets
21:27 / 25.05.08
Reread, Pigs. I said Bruce was Alfred's ward. Snot the other way round.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:34 / 25.05.08
If it turns out that Alfred is the Black Glove, or if it's Bruce's alter-ego, I think I'll shoot heroin, until I turn blue!
 
 
The Natural Way
09:23 / 26.05.08
Sorry, I understood you initially, I just articulated it incorrectly. How is Bruce Alfred's ward?

He's his boss, sure, ut I wouldn't describe Alfred as being under Bruce's guardianship. I think of Bruce and Alfred as equals (apart from, you know, the superhero thing) and I'm fairly certain Alf could get by without a Batman.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
10:37 / 26.05.08
The person getting the beat-down in the preview- Springheeled Jack?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:53 / 26.05.08
Maybe, but I'd assume Batman would call him by name if that was the case.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:28 / 26.05.08
Sorry, I understood you initially, I just articulated it incorrectly. How is Bruce Alfred's ward?

At least in the Silver Age, not sure how it works post Year One, but Alfred did contribute significantly to Bruce's post-murder childhood and essentially raised him (along with Leslie).
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
16:55 / 26.05.08
a piece of free info for your consideration, offered without comment:

Dr. (Thomas) Wayne was also the "first Batman" according to The First Batman, a Silver Age tale where he attacked and defeated hoodlums while dressed like a "Bat-Man" for a masquerade ball with flying creatures as a theme (the costume resembles the original Batman costume from 1939). This was recognized as one of the inspirations for Bruce becoming Batman. According to the story, Thomas Wayne's actions resulted in Lew Moxon being imprisoned and ordering the murder of Thomas Wayne ten years later through Joe Chill. Though this would make Bruce 12-15, the Silver Age Batman tales were known for their inaccuracies. When Batman realizes Moxon ordered his parents killed, he confronts Moxon, who can't remember what he did due to amnesia. When Batman's costume is torn, he wears Thomas Wayne's. Moxon remembers his crime, believes that he is being attacked by Thomas Wayne's ghost and flees into the streets where he is killed by a truck. These events were retold in the 1980 miniseries The Untold Legend of the Batman. Following the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Dr. Wayne as the "First Batman" was retconned - he instead attended the masquerade ball as Zorro.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:10 / 26.05.08
God I'm being thick today. Yep all that Ward stuff certainly rings true. Don't know why I asked the question really.
 
 
Triplets
17:27 / 26.05.08
Lol. Next name-change for Pigs: The Natural Annoy.
 
 
Spaniel
18:19 / 26.05.08
That would be good
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:52 / 26.05.08
I remember thinking, as a wee lad with my copy of THE GREATEST BATMAN STORIES EVER TOLD, that I wished Bruce would ditch his own costume and run around in his father's cool Bat-gear.
 
 
Triplets
20:50 / 26.05.08
I think it's disapointing that Bruce has never had much look turning some of his rogues to the side of the angels, bar Catwoman or, whenever it tastes nice, Harvey Dent. Or Azrael.

I know he's more about taking a fist to crime - fisting criminals, I suppose - rather than the olive branch but he could try nipping an inevitable Arkham breakout in the bud every once in a while.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:56 / 26.05.08
That's Wonder Woman's job. She's the rehab expert-- which is why there aren't many Rogues to make her gallery, really. At least, in the Golden Age this was so.
 
 
vajramukti
18:10 / 28.05.08
It may be a little too obvious to mention, but batman RIP seems like it's batman's version of The Filth. we know grant doesn't actually buy all this perverse psychoanlytic nonsense about bruce/batman, so it's really about injecting the backround critque that's been around since the 80's and making it the subject of the story so that it can be discharged.

and as for alfred... someone may have mentioned this before, but does anyone else remember The Outsider? the silver-age murderous alter ego of alfred under the effects of some weird radiation thing? lumpy white skin? reality warping powers? bueller? bueller?

it's right in the same era as thomas wayne as batman, neal adams love god et al.

sorry. carry on.
 
 
vajramukti
18:13 / 28.05.08
from alfred wikipedia pre-crisis:

"Ironically, Alfred's loyalty would lead him to become a member of Batman's rogue's gallery. While pushing Batman and Robin out of the way of a falling boulder, Alfred was seemingly killed in Detective #328 (June 1964). It was revealed in Detective #356 (October 1966) that he had been revived by a scientist named Brandon Crawford. His attempt at regeneration resulted in a dramatic change: Alfred awoke from his apparent death with pasty white skin with circular markings, superhuman powers, including telekinesis, and a desire to destroy Batman and Robin. Calling himself The Outsider, he indirectly battled the Dynamic Duo on a number of occasions, using others as his puppets – the Grasshopper Gang in Detective #334, Zatanna in Detective #336, and even the Batmobile itself in Detective #340 – and generally only appeared as a mocking voice over the radio. He did not physically appear in the comics until Detective #356, when he is bathed again in the rays of the regeneration machine during a struggle with Batman, and returns to normal, with no memory of his time as a supervillain. His time as the Outsider is put together in Showcase presents: Batman Volumes 1 & 2."
 
 
MFreitas
12:01 / 29.05.08
Oh... my... fucking...

This issue turns it all upside down. Morrison plays with all our suspects and theories and I really don't know what to think any more.

And all that about the Wayne's dirty past... Fabulous issue.
 
 
Triplets
12:31 / 29.05.08
I really can't wait til Friday.

I, Hurt!
 
 
andrewdrilon
14:15 / 29.05.08
OMG OMG OMG the latest issue is 'BrainDestroyer!' Must read! THINGS HAPPEN! And I totally agree with MFrietas--after all that, suddenly, I don't know what to think anymore. After months of subtle tremors, there's, like, a TECTONIC shift in the story and I am finding myself truly afraid for Batman. It's too much!
 
 
vajramukti
14:56 / 29.05.08
I'm kind of sad it took 20 ISSUES to get to the stage where granted wanted to START. to be fair, it's really more like 15 issues, if you take a away the ostrander fills and the ras al ghul bollocks.

but anyway. yeah. feels like a totally different book. this is what I wanted to be reading for the last two years.

the more I think about it, the more I'm baffled how anyone could think 'jezebell jet' could be anything but synonymous with betrayal. it may just be the mother of all red herrings, but it's awfully convenient that she delivers the knockout blow to bruce's psyche. 'for his own good', of course.
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
22:21 / 29.05.08
Considering the way Bruce broke down the scene with the Joker from DCU #0, I almost wish he would post on Barbelith. He doesn't miss a twist.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:45 / 30.05.08
Is Grant Morrison the only comics creator who absolutely understands that supervillains should be scary and horrorshow? I don't mean in a g/f in the fridge way, but in a 'we are lovingly going to destroy a man'/King Kraken rising out of the water/horrible silent gargoyle henchmen way. Bats 677 was my favourite of the Morrison books this week: you really felt Brucie get trounced. Really nasty. The batcave, the safe space, invaded! All theories confounded (well, perhaps with the exception of the Alfred one)!

'Kill the lights!'

Urrgh.

But Mr Freitas was right about Zur-en-whatever being the hypnotic code word.
 
 
MFreitas
12:20 / 30.05.08
Yes, so it seems. But now I really don't know what else I'm right about...
 
 
FinderWolf
13:17 / 30.05.08
Jeez. Wow. Yes. it IS teh Brain Destroyer, things DO happen, the tectonic shift is indeed "WOW!!! FUCK!! HOLY SHIT!!" and I am indeed very frightened for Bruce/Bats. All of the above: I second that emotion, big-time and hardcore.

I don't know if the stuff about Thomas as bad seed/drug addict is true or if it's crap planted by our villains to discredit Bruce and his parents. The idea that Thomas Wayne might be alive and be the Big Bad... creeeeeepy. But seriously, if even ONE of Bruce's parents are alive, that would seem to huge a step for DC to make in terms of retcons to the CORE of the Batman mythos. If the core of Batman is: his parents were killed before his eyes, leading him to adopt a mission of eternal vengeance and to make sure no other child suffers what he had to suffer, etc. --- if one of those parents is still alive and a super-vllain.... doesn't that really fuck with it all too much?

This was creepy. Bruce only sees static but the Zur-En-Aarrh images are on the screen. The "Wow!" brutal frankness which every fanboy has thought at one moment or another about 'what if Bruce is just a big baby with his clubhouse and his costumes and his toys and his Big Mission to right the wrongs'? That wordless shot of him in the middle of his enormous Bat-Super-Secret Clubhouse was really quite emotionally powerful. But then his paranoia on top of paranoia... who to trust? No one!?!?? Is he being driven MAD!?!?!? YAAAAHHH!!!! Also, yeah, is Jezebel truly a Jezebel? Or a double-red-herring like, seemingly, the Alfred psyche-out. Cause Alfred got served at the end, violently so.

Villains infiltrating the Batcave has never seemed so scary. And I loved Bruce talking about the Tarot, mystical and Qabalistic significant of the deck of cards. (Alhtough it strikes me that Batman wouldn't use the phrasing "If I don't know all this STUFF" - emphasis mine. "Stuff" doesn't sound like a word that should be in Bruce's/Batman's vocabulary, just like "Chicks dig the car" - although that's admittedly FAR worse - in Batman Forever. That is my one fanboy nitpick in an otherwise totally awesome, stellar, mind-blowing issue.)

Morrison promised this would be a big deal and stretch back to the character's origins, the biggest thing in 70 years of Batman history. Looks like he's actually not whistling dixie. (And All-Star Supes was just as incredible, making me squeeee with delight all the way home)
 
 
FinderWolf
13:21 / 30.05.08
It just hit me that Damian will come to his Dad's rescue, somehow. Maybe even Talia, since she doesn't want Batman dead, just reprimanded and humbled for not choosing her.

Also, I wonder what the signifcance of Bruce's feeble "I'm not ready..." as he passed out, almost foaming at the mouth it seemed like. Was it something more than just "I'm not ready to lose/die"...? Is some part of his subconscious aware that this was coming somehow, regarding the overall plan (other than his present awareness of the growing Black Glove conspiracy) and especially the post-hypnotic trigger word?

The librium on the blade that Hurt refers to -- am I forgetting a fight from last issue, or is this librium on a blade that we'll see next issue in combat? Also, what were those masks that flashed on the screen (looked vaguely like they could be tribal bat or devil masks...)?
 
  

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