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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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LDones
10:09 / 04.02.08
...the demon/batmite stuff doesn't necessarily have to be entirely hallucinatory/symbolic

Absolutely.

I don't want to make it seem as if the way I'm interpreting these things (and probably Morrison comics in general), in typically mundane, banal, or... atheistic terms, maybe, is my literal interpretation of the story itself or in any way absolute. It's my take on the meaning of the symbols, the themes, pointing out what I think is relatable and human about the fantasy fiction of it, or occasionally what I think the author is getting at - and I'd never mean for that to literalize the myth. Absolutely in Batman's world some freaky stuff is going down that isn't simply a dissection of his psyche, or a reflection of the human need to periodically reevaluate our safeguards against despair.

I think that slipperiness of real and unreal that you mention is vital to good allegory. I'd say that was a big part of what magic and good fiction are about, and I don't mean to appear as if I'm a skeptic on fictional or mythic turf. I don't personally make a distinction between Bat-mite being a dimensional imp with a demon on his back and him being a coping mechanism. Come here/put here.
 
 
Spaniel
13:46 / 04.02.08
So then, I now expect some of that happy wackiness to manifest itself over the next couple of books, as Batman rallies against the dark (knight).
 
 
Mug Chum
14:05 / 04.02.08
I'm not so sure it will be that much in that vein. Next issue is a drilling torture session (possibly a nod to the death of Robin Stephanie -- and possibly drilling for more reveals). And was the "feel lucky" line a allusion to a Clint Eastwood-ian Batman?

It seemed to me the potential healthy Batman is still under construction. It feels still like the first few issues. Great, fun, but Batman still didn't get out completetly from it (and part of the fun is the nods to -- and new contexts for -- that; the short hardboiled lines about smell of the enemies' muscles and the occasional fallbacks in behaviour etc). It still seems like a mixed soup of going wild and the cave.

(I didn't really liked at first the very first few Kubert issues, but re-reading them recently made me love them to death)
 
 
Spaniel
14:25 / 04.02.08
I agree that the new Bats is still under construction, but in order to win this one, I don't think it's reaching to suggest that we might see some of the more out there, crazy batstuff start to spill through the cracks. If Dones is right, if Morrison is making the case for the wackier corner of the batverse as a counterbalance to the void, then it stands to reason that that's exactly what Batman should be calling upon to get out of this mess.

And, you know, it ain't just torturegrimness next ish, Batmite also makes an appearance.
 
 
Spaniel
14:28 / 04.02.08
Not expecting a barrage of wacky funness, though.
 
 
Mug Chum
14:36 / 04.02.08
I hope you're right, 'cause I'm still wondering and expecting what the full blown mad scifi-closet adventures peppered by lovegod superspy chesthair would be like.

And yes, please, more creepy-wacky Batmite.
 
 
Spaniel
14:40 / 04.02.08
Not really asserting it's going to be full blown love god for a while, if ever. Just that elements of the love god might be keen to this arc.
 
 
Mug Chum
14:50 / 04.02.08
No, I know. Just saying I'm still left hanging on that, a glimpse of what that fully-stripped-from-grime version could be like today (and from Morrison as well as a bonus) -- mostly by wanting a good adventure story, and secondly by cheer curiosity ('cause I always had a feeling it couldn't really be done fully, without dipping in and out of the blackwater well).
 
 
Spaniel
14:52 / 04.02.08
I have that feeling too. I think the blackwater well is one of the main things that keeps Bats interesting
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:24 / 04.02.08
It's angst that has dragged Bats down in the past. There's a world of difference between 'dark' and 'angst', but so many writers have made a balls up of the character because of the inability to divine this difference, IMO.
 
 
LDones
20:18 / 04.02.08
Wherever the story goes, I agree that he's got a fair bit further to fall down the well before he climbs back out. I don't think things are going to turn positive in a hurry; especially with "Batman R.I.P." on the horizon and the Joker still yet to make his appearance, whatever context it'll be in.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
02:04 / 05.02.08
so: "let's put a smile in that face, iihihahauahha"

somehow the last Joker line in the most recent - so far - trailer for the DARK KNIGHT movie sounds not only creepier due to the sad early departure of Heath Ledger, but comes to me in synch with this arc:

Batman needs to "chill" out and have more fun - get over his miller-ian angst for good [again] and learn how to channel it only when necessary to kick some butt in Gotham's streets.

this is his own magickal Abbyss Crossing [re: THE FILTH, for further reading], confronting his fears in flesh, photo negatives of what sets him as The Batman \ Bruce Wayne in reality - all the bad aspects of his life put to use to reaffirm what he is through confrontation. LDones thoughts made this light flicker here.

if Batman survives the ordeal, he'll be born from shit on the other side as gold; a new Bat-Man for new weirder times. thinking about the Joker too much? you better, cause you'll need it.
 
 
Mug Chum
18:34 / 08.02.08
Mildly interesting Golden Age confrontation with Joe Chill.

Probably Morrison's source. Pretty similar, but his goons kill him for creating Batman.
 
 
LDones
23:02 / 08.02.08
Oh wow, that's pretty direct reference material, Land Sea & Air transport company, floating pair of eyes and all. Interesting.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:19 / 12.02.08
One other thing.

the We will wound your soul forever, and if it is strong it will survive...etc' stuff seemed exactly the opposite of negative to me. Isn't it a response to Bruce describing his heart as a black hole or something similar? I'm fairly certain that the idea is to resensitize him to life. Necessarily, for a paradigm shift that great, it would entail a fairly traumatic event, but in the end it would be for the good.
 
 
LDones
19:50 / 12.02.08
To me that statement isn't positive or negative.

'If you are lost to despair then we will traumatize you so badly that you will either triumph or die', is how I take it. I think that's what Bruce Wayne's after, that clarity; since the trauma and stakes of his life (including numerous rebirths) have so far been unable to prevent an ongoing downward spiral in his spirit.

I would also say that I think that wound is the cumulative trauma of his life, all the way back to childhood and into his future - all the loss and randomness and unintended consequence of his life; and that Morrison's likely to try to take this one as close to the edge of the existential abyss as he can before he brings it back. It's Batman, his Hades to Superman's Zeus.

Something I thought about while re-reading the run last week: there are three Robin caskets in Bruce Wayne's visions - and I started wondering if the three ghosts of Batman, as tulpas or externalized traumas, aren't directly related to fears surrounding the death of Robin - the loss of specific charges or children. Most good ghost stories are really about regret. The first impostor was beaten to death with a crowbar by the Joker, like Jason Todd. The third one has Bruce Wayne tied to a chair to be tortured with a power drill, like Stephanie Brown. The only ones left are Tim or Dick. And BaneBats is still out there murdering women.

Joe Chill inadvertently created Batman, partially out of hesitation from the reminder of the son he'd lost. The cover of #673 looks like a birth gone bad, a miscarriage. I think Bruce is probably going to find out that he's somehow responsible for creating these impostor Batmen, and/or for something else equally horrible; possibly as a result of whatever did or didn't happen to Joe Chill that night he got his gun back.

Joe Chill In Hell. "Our father in Hell!" "The Batman failed to kill me when he had his chance. If he had, perhaps things might have been... different for all of us." "I shoulda shot the kid right there - I shoulda done him first. Three for three..."

One of the big comic book moments that sticks in my head from when I was a kid is from the Killing Joke - the pre-Joker, under the Red Hood and being confronted with Batman, saying "Oh dear God, what have you sent to punish me?"
 
 
Mug Chum
20:58 / 12.02.08
and I started wondering if the three ghosts of Batman, as tulpas or externalized traumas, aren't directly related to fears surrounding the death of Robin

I tend to agree more with your previous point, that is in fact a more generalized death/fear drive, a more vast emotional vista/ vague about the randomness of traumas and violations and being taken something out of you, or fucking things up etc (and keeping all and everything at arms' reach -- too close, or keeping safe distance). The wound will be hard enough so that "if he survives" he wouldn't (theoretically) need to keep himself on the stagnated portions of grim&gritty shadows.

I feel it's more of a state of an emotional miser (pinning down by 'vagueness' where that in Batman's storyline meets the readers' drives to what they want in the character and his world) that doesn't want to take the toys out to exposure to play with, and that end up putting them into a tidy little dark case that soon became a crippling - and dead - 'comfort zone' (as Gordon puts it).

(goes off to rent Toy Story 2)
 
 
FinderWolf
03:28 / 13.02.08
also, given Morrison's hypersigil tendencies, I wanted to note that we've often heard Morrison mentioning in interviews the notebooks he fills up with his plot/script ideas, sketches, etc. etc. -- sounds exactly the specific type of notebooks Bruce says he writes his case files in.

And yeah, I loved that Mozzer gave an explanation for the hardboiled style of Bat-first-person narration. He's writing/narrating 'em that way cause Alfred likes it that way!! Awww. He's so considerate.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:24 / 13.02.08
Yeah, I think everyone really dug that. Was great.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:18 / 22.02.08
New interview up @ Newsarama.

Morrison promising more Morrison and more upbeat stories after RIP. Also, how RAINBOW BATMAN and all that outer space shit fits into the big picture.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:57 / 22.02.08
completely fantastic interview. Gobbled it up like a hungry kid on Thanksgiving, I did.

this was especially amusing:

>> NRAMA: In the flash-forward story in issue #666, a few people noted that Damian-as-Batman kind of looked like you…

GM: Yeah, well, that had nothing to do with me – that was the way Andy (Kubert) drew it, and I looked at it and went, “Oh God, not another bald guy!” (laughs) I had written him as having a buzz cut, I think, but Andy drew him bald. I think a lot of people just assumed that I stuck myself into a comic again, but that was never intended.

Hee hee.

and Mozzer says he plans to stay on the book for a long time after FINAL CRISIS! Joy!
 
 
LDones
19:37 / 22.02.08
That's an infectious enthusiasm, good interview.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:18 / 27.02.08
new issue out; very cool stuff. WHO IS DR. HURT???!?? (I mean that in a tongue-in-cheek way, like that would be the text splashed across the cover of an issue from the 1970s)

I like the idea that the Batmen sense an 'end' is coming for our hero...

Bat-Mite is his subconscious/guardian angel/totem/tulpa. Me likey.
 
 
Mug Chum
23:14 / 27.02.08
I'll be reading a 2nd time later on to get my head around it a bit better.

But it was a cool ride. And Daniel's art improved immensily.
 
 
Mug Chum
07:16 / 28.02.08
Spaced medicine.

(there's something weirdly amusing in seeing Robin getting hit in the face by a huge boulder)
 
 
FinderWolf
14:10 / 28.02.08
wow, funky scans - and they show us just how much dialogue & such is taken directly from that old, wacky Batman comic. Thanks for the link.
 
 
Mug Chum
11:53 / 05.03.08
This issue didn't stir much, eh?

I thought it was quite a nice issue, with nice bits of information, all well revealed. Aside the arm trick and the villain's fence-escape, it was overall a pretty good story with a nice "monthly issue" rhythm (which might also be due to being more quickly released).

And, I don't know if it was intentional, but I thought Bruce "going to bed" in the trash can besides this 'coincidental' mock-up of a Joker body was a nice touch. Its significance I have no clue, but nice.

And, again, the art significantly improved.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:58 / 05.03.08
I'm fairly certain those of us who enjoy Grant's Batman enjoyed this issue - it's just that Barbelith's slower these days and I don't always feel inclined to comment. I mean, how often do you guys really need to hear me croaking out the monthly praise? So, anyway, a couple of things: first of all, this comic is definitely hurtling towards the weirdiverse. Yes, it's fun to deconstruct the functions Batmite performs and what he means, but what is more fun is the FOURFOLD GATE OF ZRRRF (or whatever it was)! Now that the 5D speak's begun (has anyone noticed that DC's other-dimensional types speak in sigils? Only the hard consonants are used when they fold their language down into ours. I'm sure it's not lost on Grant), I'm sure we can expect Batman's horrendous grimpainR.I.PHELL to resolve itself into rainbow-bat-UFOA-GO-GO, and that's alright with me, yessir.

More when I don't have to ask old ladies for money.
 
 
The Natural Way
00:38 / 06.03.08
Got some.

Nice one, old ladies.

And the other thing... I hope it's explained why those evil bat-fucks were dressed up in special Bruceyfears outfits. Who is this weird, stalkery Simon Hurt >!DEVIL-MAN!< weirdo, that he's got a hotline to Batman's secret history?

Or Maybe it's all coincidence and Bane-bat and the rest weren't 'designed to trigger my [read: Batman's] worst fears'. Maybe they're all just weird freaks naturally, in the natural way.
 
 
Mug Chum
12:34 / 06.03.08
I thought Dr Hurt was just the doctor supervising Bruce's time in the chamber, and took it from that material to get to study him (G-d knows why). And that they dressed up like that (/appropriated) taking in consideration the possibility of Batman going away, taking an already well-known role to the city (while incentivating Bruce's retirement -- planting that silver-agey speech pattern, "I must...").

And, yeah, I'm guessing Hurt will be there in the future more (wasn't that same Bat-spook talking of the Devil in the future in the same way he describes Hurt now?).

I just assumed they were trying to take the "war on crime" more efficiently (in their view) than Batman had done so far, so they'd start killing criminals and do things more in their way of seeing, having the 'war' more on their terms and begin where Batman's ways ends.

And the cop taking out 'Bane' reminded me a lot of Jimmy Olsen taking Superman out in A*S4 (the freckles-redhair-greeneyes taking out a rogue friend in a promise, Bane as Doomsday etc).
 
 
The Natural Way
22:12 / 06.03.08
No, Hurt is the criminal master mind who's telling Bruce his name. Hurt's the real bad guy.
 
 
The Natural Way
22:41 / 06.03.08
The bat-evils are a message, basically.
 
 
The Natural Way
22:49 / 06.03.08
Hurt was responsible for the 'satanic killings', etc. Remember the quotation marks. He was trying to replicate the trauma that brought Bats into being.
 
 
The Natural Way
22:54 / 06.03.08
I thought this stuff was really obvious. Zip, stop analysing this stuff to the point that you miss the oases of information that the writer's leading you to. Hurt is the Devil... Satanic killings.... Geddit? All those cops with their guns drawn, as he replays the footage...
 
 
Mug Chum
23:10 / 06.03.08
No, I got all that. But I'm saying he was previously just the doctor from the old space medicine story (from the link above), that Morrison retconned and recontextualized his silver age persona, dialogues and motivations.
 
  

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