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Grant Morrison's Batman

 
  

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Spaniel
15:58 / 15.05.08
Bloomin' obvious, innit
 
 
The Natural Way
17:05 / 15.05.08
The only thing is, while this is all very convincing, The Black Glove is responsible for loads of deaths and Bruce Wayne would never be complicit in that. It's the one gaping hole in the theory. Other than that, it's water-tight. I know that the whole Black Glove movie script thing implies that the whole Club of Heroes bit could be a put on, but so much of the action occurred when Batman was absent......
 
 
MFreitas
17:06 / 15.05.08
Sure thing. But believe me when I say my french vocabulary doesn't reach that far. Far from it.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:07 / 15.05.08
Wouldn't be the first time Morrison's pulled a 'let's lie to the readers too' trick (Xorn), but I really don't like them.
 
 
MFreitas
17:08 / 15.05.08
That "many deaths" factor is also what's bothering me. But I trust there'll be a sound explanation.
 
 
MFreitas
17:21 / 15.05.08
Anyway... "Loads of deathes"? That many? Let's check:

- Legionnaire
- Dark Ranger
- John Mayhew (who probably killed the former two - him or Wingman - and was probably the victim of his own traps)
- The "deadman" killed by LeBossu

So they're not that many,right? Anyone I'm missing?
 
 
Triplets
18:12 / 15.05.08
Yeah but Batman, if he's the palm of the Black Glove, is a "no murders" kind of guy. Something to do with his parents apparently.

Could be the biggest twist if George breaks that rule, though. I still reckon it's Pennyworth at the top.

That panel of Hurt's eyes and the promise they are "OPERATORS AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL" gives me the chills.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
19:48 / 15.05.08
Freitas, I was a little confused by that chat between Robin and Alfred, but the butler is still a strong contestant.

i started thinking about Robin was feeling bad for Damian having taken his place and put together this plan. it would be the ultimate test to become the next Batman: defeating him. but of coruse, there are implications.

the schizo Wayne + helping butler theory is still much better. let's forget about Robin for now. for now.
 
 
_Boboss
21:09 / 15.05.08
so have none of you seen the black glove post here:

http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/

(often a bit of an annoying blog - orson welles? matt fraction? *titter* - but frequently good stuff on there)

thomas wayne jr. seems like the best candidate here. the earth 2 pedigree is what sells it for me. and the notion that alfred would at least notionally owe as much loyalty to mad tom as to bruce, perhaps more if tom is senior.

still think people are missing stuff even there though: morrison doesn't have a history of giving clues so much as he has of giving red herrings. and there's the cosmic element too - batmite and zur-en-arrh - which need to be incorporated into all these flying theories. and superman - he was a regular fixture of the batman books that morrison is riffing off, an official member of the club of heroes - surely he'll be putting his oar in (this will occur in FC rather than the batbook though i guess)???????
 
 
MFreitas
21:39 / 15.05.08
Just a small comment I did on said blog:

"I'm sorry, but... why awesome? What are in those pages that even remotely suggest Morrison could use Thomas Wayne Jr. as The Blak Glove? Plus: are there any clues throughout Morrison's run that suggest or implies this? I think that would be a very Deus Ex-Machina solution, basically a solution from outside the story itself.

But hell, now I'm gonna reread some issues again to see if this theory has any substance at all."
 
 
_Boboss
22:00 / 15.05.08
'are there any clues throughout Morrison's run that suggest or implies this?'

that's where i think you could be tripping yourself up - morrison doesn't really do clues (at least as far as i can remember. there weren't any as such for xorn were there? it's the only comparable example of a whodunnit hook in morrison's recent work, and he went out of his way to wrongfoot speculators there, not litter handy hints around.)

as for deus ex - like 'the butler did it' (which the tommy idea integrates rather than precludes anyway) wouldn't be? we're in funnytown remember - the only rule is 'all the toys must be returned to the box in the condition they were found' - so bad alfred, that is, really bad, is basically out of the question, as michael caine is more important to alfred's future than even grant morrison these days. not a lot of people know that.

i have my coat on already, actually.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:45 / 15.05.08
Well you should have really; it pains me to say this THOR!, but you are a buster. You are a total buster.
 
 
_Boboss
07:16 / 16.05.08
then i guess i'd better jolly well go and look up what that means...
 
 
MFreitas
09:47 / 16.05.08
Thor!, I think I did mention this earlier, but Zur-en-Arrh is quite probably the hypnotic keyword implanted by "Dr.Hurt" in Batman and his 3 replacements, during the isolation chamber experiment and the one which created said replacements.

Plus: there were SEVERAL clues Morrison planted concerning Xorn's identity. The point is NO ONE was looking for them because we didn't know there was something fishy about Xorn. If someone, early in the run, warned us "Beware of Xorn! He's not who you think he is!" we'd start looking for hidden clues and I'm absolutely positive some of us wound end up guessing the truth.

The clues WERE there! The "Man in the iron prison"; the "Star for a brain"; the "I could have laid out the foundations of paradise on Earth" speech; the phony chinese military who ended up being only a chinese mutant with a repulsive power plus his disgusting homunculi; Xorn's "iron prison" itself, which tremendously resembled the super-sentinel that destroyed Magneto's tower in Genosha; the gravitational pull Xorn caused; the diary entry we all initially thought was an inner monologue; Xorn EATING RICE, for fuck sake! Xorn mercilessly killing the U-Men during the special class camping. So, YES, the clues were there, and I only opened my eyes to it, first after the "The sun in the box" line in "Murder at The Mansion" and later, of course, after the big reveal.

Oh, and Hector? Drake is an impossible suspect, since this goes way before there was a Tim Drake in Wayne's life. Grayson was still Robin during the isolation chamber days.
 
 
_Boboss
10:38 / 16.05.08
most those clues are 'xorn is dodgy', not 'xorn is magneto' though. some of those clues, i think i may be right in saying, were accidents caused by writer/artist disconnect rather than deliberate breadcrumbs. but while we’re looking at pedigrees, what about the earth 2 thing? come on, that hasn’t tickled your thoughtspots at all?

and so are you saying the trip to the alien planet zur-en-arrh was more Dr. Hurt-or-bopal ritual hallucinations too? what about the neon spraypaint coming out of batman’s fingers when he was shot? I think that mad cosmic powers might have a part to play here, rather than everything weird eventually turning out to be a hallucination.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, i like your theory and all, (at least I think I do, what I can remember of it – you’re still basically saying alfred’s doing it on mad-bruce’s orders, right?) it covers a lot of ground very well, I just think there may be some gaps in it, and that those gaps might be more important and far-out than anyone hereabouts is currently anticipating.

(comics just aren’t supposed to be this fun anymore, but I’m glad they still sometimes are.)
 
 
MFreitas
13:15 / 16.05.08
You're right, this is just fun speculation and debate. And don't you get me wrong too: I'm not in this to prove my theory the best or whatsoever. I just love to play devil's advocate and see if the others have anything to sustain their own ideas and theories. And believe me, I've been looking for holes in my theories and found aplenty!

Let's just keep the ball rolling.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:12 / 16.05.08
That whole speech of Alfred's as he held the lantern and led Tim down the stairs was pretty creepy indeed and seemed to have the feel of 'a lead character is left alone with the killer, but he doesn't know that the other character *IS* the killer'....
 
 
The Natural Way
21:00 / 16.05.08
Morrison (and Dan Didio) have repeatedly said there are lots of clues......

Shut it, Thor.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:13 / 17.05.08
I love the idea of the Alfred/Bruce theory, I truly do, and I'd love to read the story about that when it gets made. But that story, in my opinion, isn't being written today.

My issue with it as we sit here now is that the prime piece of evidence for it, the one thing that made anyone think 'It's Alfred!' is, well, a Morrison interview.

Had we not had the 'biggest reveal since 1644AD!!!' line, I don't see that there is anything that would point to Alfred. Sure, we can retrofit a few things - he reads lurid crime novels; he's clearly TEH MASTERMIND!1!!!, for example.

If we're, honest, there's nothing that would actually point to there being a need for a "reveal" at all - The Black Glove is an very high-level organisation that bets good against evil for laughs, is apparently run by Simon Hurt (who we have currently have no reason to believe is anyone other than a guy named Hurt, Simon), and lies to do the nastiness. They seem to have a revolving membership, although I suspect that it needs 8/9 people at any one time.

As fas as we can tell, or have been hinted at, the Black Glove are entirely new characters. We're it not for that "biggest revelation since someone first dropped a teabag into a mug of hot water" quote, we wouldn't even be looking.
 
 
MFreitas
09:16 / 17.05.08
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! There are SO MANY clues pointing to Alfred and Wayne that they probably are red-herrings. That I can buy. But don't tell me there are no clues, really. Reread the issues, reread my posts, reread others' posts. But don't turn all of this into cheap guessing.
 
 
MFreitas
09:18 / 17.05.08
And just to remind you...

"Stupid Cheap Mask! Leave'em crazy clues they'll never work out!".

...right after Hurt's appearance. Very much Morrison's M.O.
 
 
LDones
10:39 / 17.05.08
While I'm not a board moderator, and I may be cranky these days, I don't know that Neon Snake's take on the potential identity of a comic book villain warranted quite as many all-caps declarations of violent disagreement there.

While it's an interesting theory, there really isn't anything in the text of Morrison's Batman run that makes Alfred any more likely a suspect for the King of Crime as anyone else. I'd say there are just as many 'clues' pointing to Tim Drake. (jealous of Batman's waning attentions!), The Joker (The Black Glove are all in his head and this, including warning Batman, is all part of his master plan!), Bruce Wayne (rapidly going crazy-er from years of traumatic stress!), or Jezebel Jet (silly name, and a WOMAN!) as The Black Glove as there are pointing to Alfred.

I'm of the camp that thinks there'd be little emotional payoff if the butler does end up being the culprit. It's an ugly betrayal of part of the tradition of the character of Batman; and while I think Morrison could make a weird twist like that work (he's a good storyteller, and knows pretty well what works in the the comics medium), it would require some seriously fancy footwork from him as a writer to justify thematically.

Guessing is fun, and finding clues in a good mystery is always good for some reading & discussing excitement. It's good to be excited about a book - but I'd dig it if generally inoffensive posts like Neon Snake's (despite some honestly pretty harmless snark) weren't quite so loudly shouted down, and in such a hurry. There's room for more than one side of a discussion, surely.
 
 
Spaniel
11:39 / 17.05.08
That's very true.

Quite strongly disagree that we're not in for a big reveal, though. The Batmobile line - otherwise almost entirely superfluous - is just the latest thing to me cause to believe that things are not what they seem. Zur-en-arr (or whatever) pretty much guarantees that something is lurking behind the scenes.

Also, well, Morrison quite regularly has a kind of higher order component to his work.
 
 
Spaniel
11:41 / 17.05.08
Sorry, I misread your post, Snake. I see that you're not saying there won't be a reveal, just that one hasn't been signposted within the text.
 
 
MFreitas
12:10 / 17.05.08
"There are SO MANY clues pointing to Alfred and Wayne"...

"WAYNE". I also said WAYNE. Yes, that's another ALL-CAPS declaration.

And Drake? Sorry, guys, but there's jealousy and there's clues. And Drake was an infant during Hurt's first move, when Grayson was still Robin, so no, there aren't as many clues for Drake as there are for Alfred. Clues like:

"Schizophrenic painters, 'outsider' work" (Alfred was once the Outsider)
"I've been moving its rather lurid contents into memory stick" (about the Black Case Book)
"Alfred always insists I keep a record of everything."

Anyway, remember: I'm the one defending it's schizo Bruce giving orders to Alfred, so what do I know?
 
 
Neon Snake
12:23 / 17.05.08
Easy enough to misread, I've just misread it myself and noticed that when I left work yesterday, I appeared to have left my grasp of grammar on my desk. My bad.

Anywho...yes. I think there will be a reveal, but the only reason we have to think that is that one from Morrison's interview.

Without that, I'd be thinking that The Black Glove is a new and exicting crime organisation that Morrison has made up, and who seem to be fond of betting and of pitting good against evil for laughs.

Once you know that there is a reveal, you can go back and look for clues, and there are a number of scenes which could 'in hindsight' lend themselves to a reading of Alfred being the big villain.

Or, they could lend themselves to a reading of Alfred's character being fleshed out in the manner of a writer who wishes to add some depth to an important secondary character, like he has to Tim or Damian or Talia.

I'd love to believe that Alfred-on-orders-of-Mad-Bruce theory, because it's truly, truly brilliant. I'd love to read that story.

But, the case 'for' is a lot of meta-clues, and scenes like the "outsider art" comment, or the "Alfred? Shhh!" comment.

The case against, on the other hand, rests on the small matter that Alfred would have to be complicit in the Legionnaire being stabbed 23 (or however many) times, Dark Ranger being burned to death, Wingman being shot, Raven Red nearly having his face eaten by pirahnas, and so on. Let alone however many folk the Black Glove and the replacement Batcops have killed over the years.

It jsut doesn't really add up for me, at this point. But hey! How silly will I look when I'm wrong, eh?
 
 
MFreitas
12:35 / 17.05.08
Oh come one! I've already told I'm not competing for any prize and just want to discuss things. No one's going to look silly after the reveal is out. We'd look silly if we were looking for clues, inner logic or coherence in a Jeph Loeb book. I even said somes posts ago my thoery is full of holes to explain, mostly those related to the deathes.
 
 
Spaniel
14:08 / 17.05.08
I find the deaths tough to factor in, that's for sure.
 
 
Mark Parsons
16:49 / 17.05.08
And Drake? Sorry, guys, but there's jealousy and there's clues. And Drake was an infant during Hurt's first move, when Grayson was still Robin, so no, there aren't as many clues for Drake as there are for Alfred.

True, at least on the surface. Don't forget about Big Baby-Head Man (Ed?) from THE GUARDIAN. Maybe Tim is a secret baby genius mastermind and pal to 5th dimensional imp Batmite.
 
 
LDones
20:38 / 17.05.08
Secret evil baby geniuses. It could go no other way for Batman.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:45 / 17.05.08
Alternatively, Robin could be Bat-Mite, an elaborate fictionsuit Bat-Mite created purely to finally gain Batman's favour and be properly a partner, a buddy, a compatriot, et cetera. Because Batman's so swell, see, and Bat-Mite wants to grow up and be him one day.
 
 
captainkyle
20:39 / 18.05.08
would it be a complete repeat of the whole 'omac project' thing if it turned out that it's batman's technology manifesting consciousness and testing/hunting him via its access to bruce wayne/batman?

as much as all the 'it's alfred as the outsider' theories make sense, i'm unconvinced. if only for that avenue not being particularly monumental enough to match what morrison is capable of.

whereas, if it were a malicious batcomputer manipulating everyone, i could see a lot more potential for story opportunities. especially as it allows for all prior theories to play a role: bruce doing it to himself (he built/programmed the thing), alfred being a main instigator (following what he believes are the orders of his master but are really delivered from the computer), the black glove being a collection of villains versus one specific mastermind, etc.

weird theory, i realize. and maybe i'm reading far too much into that image of the batcomputer (in the first view of the batcave in #655) looking pretty ominous (is that a face formed by the keyboards/readouts?) with that rear bat fan thing extending up in a 'you're in the grip of the black glove' kind of way. and i will admit that my line of thinking originates in trying to figure out the true significance of the "building a better batmobile" story title and thinking how amusing it would be if the black glove referred to batman's glove compartment in the batmobile.

but as we're supposed to be looking for the craziest clues within the story, the fact that the pre-enlightened damian mocks the cave's voice recognition software for not being smart, followed by batman stating that the cd changer in the new batmobile is 10 times smarter than the idiotic would-be supercriminal being pursued in the latest issue makes me wonder if there isn't something going on with batman's tech. there's a lot of stuff with party invitations and memory sticks and things like that that just seem to stand out.

plus, with morrison's consistent statements about the dc comics universe becoming its own consciousness, how cool would it be if batman (spotlighted by alfred as having a mind like no other) put all of his amazing intellect and strange, weird knowledge to creating something so bizarre and advanced that it became his own ultimate archenemy? maybe that is what subjecting a brilliant mind to such outrageous trails leads to?
 
 
MFreitas
22:23 / 18.05.08
Bravo! Now THAT is brilliant!
 
 
Automatic
10:11 / 19.05.08
You know, even if these theories are all completely wrong, they'd still be 10 times better than most average Batman stories.
 
 
Automatic
10:15 / 19.05.08
Oh, and something that came to mind when reading the first issue of Batman: RIP. The title of the arc is 'Batman: RIP' or 'Batman: Rest in Peace'. The acronym R.I.P. is immediately associated with death, but if you take it completely literally, it could just mean that Batman/Bruce can finally rest, peacefully. Maybe something happens to make him consider his mission over?

Also, and this is stretching a little bit.. but you could also read it as Batman: Rip. Which could refer to ripping the concept of Batman from Bruce Wayne somehow, OR to ripping the role of Batman in two (remember Damian Wayne's gallery in #666 showing two Batmen and Robin fighting alongside each other).

Can anyone see any problems with any of this?
 
  

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