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7 Soldiers: Zatanna

 
  

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Aertho
23:33 / 11.08.05
Re: Horsefeathers

It's implied there's a psychic link, or at least an intense comraderie between Kid Scarface Vincenzo and Ali Ka-Zoom. One would assume they were friends in the past, when both were members of the original Newsboy Army. 7S:SK:2 establishes Don Vincenzo as the first one to call Vanguard 'Horsefeathers', and Ali coughs feathers and exclaims the name periodically after.

I'm still trying to figure out why a adult universe would work for/with the Sheeda. Sure, Nebula Man is scary, but if my theory about matryoshka realities is true, his motivation eludes me. Why does Qwewq's reality gain sentience? Why isn't DCU's? Why isn't the reality of Summer's End sentient? Perhaps they are. Still, Nebula Man is two tiers away from The Sheeda...

I'm wondering if Misty's father will appear.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:01 / 12.08.05
After the big reveal, I actually stopped and wondered if Misty's father would show up. I still like the idea that she's Klarion's half-sister, so maybe Klarion's father travelled farther than we thought...?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
03:19 / 12.08.05
7S:Z:3 refutes that. Don Vincenzo obviously dies, and is escorted unto the afterlife by Ali Ka-Zoom. Neh-Buh-Loh manages to escape with the Cauldron, and does not seem interested in using it on Don Vincenzo.

Even more confusing, why would Nehbs be at Vincenzo's if he hadn't found out from the Spyder-tip that the cauldron was there? Or is he working as a free agent?

Wait, now I'm REALLY confused. Why would Spyder and Nehbs be there at all if they didn't know the Cauldron was there, and if they knew the cauldron was there, why the need for the tracking arrow? Did they come for Vanguard and just cover their asses with the tracking arrow just in case?

Is this the screw up that unravels the whole dang story?

Or do I just have to read everything over again.

(Probably, because until I read Chad's post, I hadn't realized Spyder was SPYDER from #0. Dur.)
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
03:35 / 12.08.05
Okay.

After a quick re-read of the pertinent passages, as of 7S:Z:3, Nehbs has put down the cauldron to attack Misty and Zee. There's some very weird and confusing shit in SK: 3, though, as a cop seems to be urging someone else to warn the Don, although this guy is wearing shades and so, possibly, is not a cop, but rather one of DV's men stationed as some kind of Sheeda lookout.

It's possible that somewhere between now and 7S #1, someone puts DV in the cauldron and, because of something related to the secret of Ali-Ka-Zoom and The Newsboy Army, this is some kind of essential ritual that needs to be performed in order for Gloriana to truly control the cauldron. After all, Spyder doesn't say, "The cauldron must be at the Villa" after the tracker goes off. He says, "The cauldron's ours!"

It's possible that we'll see DV's soul yanked from the bus when someone chucks him into the cauldron as per Gloriana's plans.

I'm not ready to cash in all my chips yet, as there's still so many books left to be written (not to mention, four issues involving an escape artist who uses black holes and presumably has access to Boom Tubes and thus can make a whole lot of things happen [and, conveniently, retrofit any mistakes that might have been made in the first half of the storyline]) but still, if this is just an inconsistency, then it is troubling indeed.

But George has got the benefit of the doubt. For now...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
03:37 / 12.08.05
And if he's the undying don, how come he just got the cauldron (which fell to earth with boy and horse)? If he's died before he has to have used it before, right? What the fuck, Grant.

Damn. I don't like this at all - a fuckup this big in a story which values internal consistency?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
03:57 / 12.08.05
Hang on a sec. Another quick re-read later.

First off, for my own benefit, I'll note that the shades cop has already been established as one of DV's Department Stooges. Hence his warning the Don.

Now, after reading the Undying Don bit, and how he's saying he had what looked like gills and three bulletholes and the like, it seems abundantly clear that for Gloriana's plans to come to fruition, he most certainly needs to go back in the cauldron. DV's been using the cauldron with impunity for a while, probably knowing that Gloriana wasn't anywhere near his reality and thus, he was safe to use it. Hence having his Department Stooge ready willing and able to warn him specifically whenever any flying spiders and future-elfs show up and wreak havoc. Because that signals, to him, "the end of the world," which he recognizes the second he sees Vanguard. He probably knows that using the cauldron in the vincinity of Gloriana is big trouble and will grant her some sort of everlasting power. But someone is going throw him in anyway.

Just a theory, mind. I have a feeling that George wouldn't have an entire issue's climax ride on a mistake. But we'll see.

Things will most likely be a bit clearer after Guardian #4, where we get some of the Newsboy Army origin. Nice treat, if you squint really hard at that issue's cover in the S7: MG: 3 Next Issue blurb, you can see Li'l Ali and Li'l Don. CUTE.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
04:08 / 12.08.05
Damn! I just read Electric's post and that reminded me of my original theory which I thought wouldn't work because Don probably had the Cauldron for a while.

But realizing that he JUST received it confirms my earlier suspicion. The Secret Origin Of The Newsboy Army will reveal that the Olde NA did something really nasty and bad in order for DV to gain eternal life, or at least for him to avoid certain, non-magical death. This something will somehow relate to Gloriana and/or The Castle Revolving. Thus it is DV and only DV who needs to get chucked into the cauldron in order for, say (and I'm just guessing here), Gloriana to gain back the power the NA (inadvertantly?) stole from her to grant DV "immortality".

This makes a lot more sense now. And, yeah, I'm guessing things will be clearer after Guardian #4. But the fact that DV's powers are so related to the Cauldron and the fact that he most likely did not have the Cauldron in the origin story we'll be reading in G#4, makes it almost certain that what Spyder is reporting in SK#3 has not yet happened and probably won't happen until Zee fights Nehbs and loses. Or Zee flees to Slaughter Swamp and Nehbs can do what he came there to do.

After all, it wouldn't really make sense for us to see Nehbs rectifying something before we actually learn what it is he has to rectify (which we presumably will learn in G#4). Making it quite tidy and convenient that it is potentially rectified in Z#4, two weeks later.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:34 / 12.08.05
Do we know for certain that the Undying Don JUST got the cauldron? I need to re-read, but the cauldron was thrown into the time-water before Vanguard and Justin fell in, so it's possible there's a hackneyed "seconds become decades" time travel delay. I'm going to go and reread to see if that's likely what happened, or if there's just a horrible clarity problem.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:39 / 12.08.05
And I'd sort of assuming that the life-sign from the Don at the end of SK3 was just the last vestiges of life, misread by the scanner, and he didn't last to Z3. Of course, that's just justifying or rationalizing an unclear plot point that Morrison might have forgotten.
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
11:04 / 12.08.05
In SK#1, the cauldron gets thrown into the green time-juice a good while before Justin and Vanguard follow it, to a cry of "That liquid flows through time itself! The cauldron will be lost!" from Gloriana. Seems clear enough to me that, in line with plenty of other 'rules of time-travel' stories (hell, just watch the finale of Justice League Unlimited season 1, to pick a vaguely relevant example), the cauldron therefore arrived in the modern-day DCU an unspecified, but potentially considerable, amount of time before Justin did, the implication being that the Don has had it for quite a while.

Another one for the "blimey, it really was all there already, wasn't it?" file - in light of developments in Zatanna #3, it's worth pointing out that, way back in SK#1, the Sheeda Queen is seen biting into an apple and declaring herself "Fairest Of Them All!" It amused me when I was re-reading it last night, anyway.
 
 
e-n
11:28 / 12.08.05
ok so I haven't re-read all the issues yet, but along with the time travel theory above, isn't thhe undying don the undying don because of the cauldron?
He got it at some unspecified time in the past (due to it getting lost in the time stream) and used it to become "immortal"
I'm confused why everyone thinks gloriana waants to chuck him into the cauldron tho?
Will re read over the weekend and re-post
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
12:33 / 12.08.05
Yeah, I should have clarified that.I certainly read it that way - the Don is "undying" because he possesses a cauldron which can grant eternal life. Seems pretty obvious to me, anyway.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:42 / 12.08.05
Well, I've now got theories for each eventuality. Whether he got the cauldron now or whether he got it in the Super Secret Origin Of Tha Newsboy Army.
 
 
Aertho
12:56 / 12.08.05
I'm sure the DV Cauldron is a fake and Ra's Al Ghul had the real one the whole time.

Which means Vincenzo is a delusional Highlander, with a Dumbo feather in the shape of a pot.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
16:24 / 12.08.05
OK, I haven't read Zatanna #3 yet, but what I think happened was this:

1- Good ole Nebuloh attacked the Don's Villa and hit Vinnie with the poison arrow, because they needed to kill Vinnie and give him a good reason to take a bath in the cauldron. At this point neither Nebuloh or Glorianna knew where the cauldron was.

2- At some point, someone took Vinnie's corpse and dip it into the magic cauldron.

3- Glorianna receives the signal that the cauldron has been used, and receives the information she needed to find the secret location where Vinnie kept the darn thing.

I still believe Nebuloh is working with Glorianna, since Glorianna and her stooge knew about the poison arrow and knew about whatever device they used to detect the cauldron, as seen in Shining Knight #3.

I assume that at some point between SK#3 and Z#3 Nebuloh picked up the cauldron.

Then again, I haven't read Z#3, so I might be awfully wrong.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:19 / 12.08.05
wow...i really need to re-read everything now, cause I can't make any sense of the last page of posts....I clearly missed a ton of things!
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
18:13 / 12.08.05
Juan Arteaga - you're awfully wrong, I'm afraid. Read Zatanna #3.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
18:19 / 12.08.05
I would if I could.
 
 
LDones
18:43 / 12.08.05
Vanguard specifically says the Undying Don/Kid Scarface was killed by Neh-bul-oh. So I imagine this is another confusion due to the art rendering the Don dead in the same fashion that he was shot the night previous, in SK#2.
 
 
e-n
19:04 / 12.08.05
ok ok re read, now it looks like spyder hits the don with the bio tracker arrow from a mile or so away (SK3) during ne-bu-loh's attack on the dons mansion.Between SK3 and zatanna #3 someone takes don to the cauldron, nehbs follows, finishes off the don and viola!
...right?
 
 
Aertho
19:07 / 12.08.05
So Vanguard says the Don is killed by Neh-Buh-Loh, but Spyder is certain that he's tagged the Undying Don with a poisoned arrow? Aside from the fact that the arrow was also cybernetic and possessed nano-tech that was attuned to reading life-signs, why would Neh-Buh-Loh finish Vincenzo off UNLESS he had his own motives and agenda?

Perhaps because the assault on the Don's compound was led by Neh-Buh-loh, Vanguard says that's who killed him. Similar meaning to "Sherman's March".

I doubt next week's Klarion will do anything to fix this garbage plothole. Odds being in LA, and evens in NYC. I guess that means Mister Miracle will debut in LA, and Bulleteer in New York.
 
 
Aertho
19:08 / 12.08.05
e-n wins the No-Prize.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:40 / 12.08.05
Actually, wasn't the MM reference in MG? Something about pulling a stunt in one of Manhattan's outre-est buildings? So, I vote vice versa on the east coast west coast beef.
 
 
Aertho
19:45 / 12.08.05
So far, the only of the 7 Soldiers to not have been referenced in the text thus far is the Bulleteer. Did I miss one?
 
 
Mario
22:41 / 12.08.05
Some more of my Welsh translations:

"Porth Uffern" = "Gates of Hell"

"Peir" = "Cauldron"

"Pen" = "Head"

The linking of Cauldron & Head reminds me of Bran the Blessed.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
22:59 / 12.08.05
Frankenstein hasn't been referenced yet, right?
 
 
Aertho
23:58 / 12.08.05
Johnny Frankenstein was said to patrol the Old West with Vigilante.
 
 
Quimper
17:00 / 13.08.05
damn this thing is filled with possible analogues.

when ali ka-zoom sees his cabinet, he says "they musta sent about a dozen cops in there, and one called...one 'metanormal invesigator'". sounds reminiscent of agent helligan.

it's starting to seem like the old newsboy army were the previous batch of seven soldiers? went thru the same thing as our current ones? "there were 7 of us, just kids. oh and i musn't forget the dog (or the flying horse...or the magic cat).

then he says, "that final adventure took us ALL to slaughter swamp. that's where we met the fairy queen and the terrible time tailor." (foreshadowing the SS#1 bookend, I hope)

oh! love the line about the last rule of magic...that the artist must vanish with his trick and leave his assistants behind." (and! one of the seven soldiers must die! will it be....mister miracle?)
 
 
SiliconDream
17:37 / 13.08.05
Also: Do we all believe it's Zatara's ghost that visits Cassie Craft's shop and leaves his hat? Ali seems to suggest it was him. Yet he kept his hat, and appears much more tattered than the ghost in 7S:Z:2.

Ali's hat also has a feather, which the hat left in Cassie's shop lacks. I think it's Zatara's, personally.

On the timing of all the business with Don Vincenzo, it's worth nothing that Vanguard says Justin met Ali "two nights past." Which, in SK #2, was presented as simultaneous with the first attack on the Don. So there's a fairly large time window in which the Sheeda could have fallen back, waited for the Don to be resurrected in the Cauldron, and then returned to finish everybody off.

Oh, and maybe this was obvious, but we have the clincher on Strato being an "air-golem," when Misty says, "This cloud has a face like a dead Japanese guy."
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
19:56 / 13.08.05
Unless there's been an annoying little continuity cock-up, I'm going with the theory that between the Don's 'death' in Shining Knight and Zatanna encountering him in the latest issue, he was revived with the Cauldron, which Neh-Buh-Loh has now stolen after killing him again. The arrow which is sticking out of his chest in Zatanna looks somewhat different from the one which Spyder shoots him with in Shining Knight, after all, and he's lying in a different place (the middle of the lawn, rather than right in front of the stable).

Vaguely dodgy story-telling either way, mind - the details are not clear at all, and having a character shot twice through the chest from behind with an arrow seems a little clumsy if we're supposed to figure out that they're two different arrows. Still, it's early yet, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gap is filled in a later issue of a different miniseries. I suspect we've barely begun to see the ways in which the various series are connected, anyway...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:29 / 13.08.05
this reminds me of that time we all talked in circles about the first issue of We3 and whether or not the doctor let the animals go on purpose....ah, memories.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:31 / 13.08.05
Well, I'm not certian about how the timing between SK#3 and Z#3 works out, but it's pretty safe to say the the Cauldron din't come out with Justin but fell to earth earlier...

Specificaly into the hands of Kid Scarface.

Cause that's what Ali says.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
01:43 / 14.08.05
Oh! And my thought of the evning:

Instead of assuming a huge continuity mistake, let's read the scenes in SK and Z at face value. In SK, Don Vincenso/Kid Scarface is killed by Spyder and the Sheeda. But it's all a trap to see where DV hides the Couldron, yes? And over in Zatanna, which seems to happen after the Couldron has been located, DV is still very dead, yes?

So the question in my mind is: If DV didn't get brought back... than who did?
 
 
SiliconDream
02:34 / 14.08.05
Come to think of it, do we know the Don was "still very dead" when Zatanna arrived? After all, Ali went to quite a bit of trouble to personally show up and escort his soul off the premises. Could be that he only got shot by the one arrow--Spyder's--but that its venom kept him from being properly resurrected. (He did say a venom-tipped arrow was a new way for him to die.) He then needed Ali's help to release him from a Heracles-style living death.
 
 
Mario
14:50 / 14.08.05
It all makes fairly basic sense.

1. Sheeda-Spyder shoots DV with a poisonous arrow (Hydra venom?) that includes a tracker.

2. DV gets dragged to the cauldron, which activates the tracker.

3. Ne-bu-loh now knows exactly where the cauldron is hidden, and counterattacks. While his minions keep the DV's men busy, he claims the cauldron. Along the way, DV is shot in the back again.
 
  

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