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7 Soldiers: Zatanna

 
  

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advancedplastics
14:34 / 28.08.05

who do we think Misty's dad is?

Arthur.


..."Misty of Avalon"?
 
 
Aertho
15:50 / 28.08.05
yup.
 
 
Blah
21:16 / 29.08.05
I don't think anyone else said this or if this means anything, but Misty's story is sort of like the story of Snow White. Snow White (Misty) was supposed to be killed because her evil step mother was jelous of her. The Step Mother told the Huntsman (Nebuloh) to take her into the woods to kill her and bring her back her heart (brain) as proof. The Huntsman couldn't kill her so he brought back the heart of a deer (brain of a telepathic) instead and had Snow White run away. And when Snow white did run away she was helped by the 7 Dwarfs (Soldiers).
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
00:13 / 30.08.05
Also notice that Glorianna Tenebrae, in the first issue of Shining Knight, refers to herself as 'fairest of them all.'
 
 
Aertho
01:55 / 30.08.05
Blah/Juan/et al: Duh.

It's all been there from the beginning. What we're up against with the Sheeda are proto-baddies, as Ystin and Arthur and the Kngihts of the Broken Table are proto-goodies. We're battling the endless fight tween Good™ and Evil™ -the basis of manichaean myth. Fairy tales, as AKA Spider sums it up in 7S #0.

Of course Misty is Snow White... but she is of course the princess girl from Rumpelstiltskin, the princess from Wild Swans, the princess from Sleeping Beauty, the princess from Little Mermaid... and on and on. Note she's off to Slaughter Swamp to enlist the aid of Seven Unknown Men. Who may be named after chakras, or maybe dwarves.

Misty will probably touch the spindle of the Time Sewing Machine and "die". I'm giddy, but I want to know about the Original Newsboy Army more.
 
 
_Boboss
09:37 / 30.08.05
well, except that misty's story as given in zatanna 3 isn't the plot of rumpelstiltskin, wild swans, little mermaid or other - it's the plot of snow white. so why go 'duh' as if others are being stupid when it's you who's making the obfuscatory error of over-extrapolation?
 
 
Aertho
10:50 / 30.08.05
Snow White doesn't sit and make anything at a loom. That's the girl from Rumpelstiltskin. Wild Swans girl makes tunics for her seven (or eleven) brothers to transform them. Sleeping Beauty becomes common in order to avoid her royal heritage.

With what Gloria Friday tells Helligan in 7S:SK3, and the fact that Gloriana's reveal occurs at midnight (Cinderella), it's obvious to me that we're not just talking one story, but the distilled basics of all stories. I'd think that would be obvious to everyone so far. But that's not the case.
 
 
Ganesh
11:10 / 30.08.05
Absolutely. She's the archetypal fairytale princess in the way Gloriana Tenebrae is the archetypal (wicked) fairy queen/stepmother.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:15 / 30.08.05
he's right, you know. I missed it - or experienced it as some kind of background noise.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:28 / 30.08.05
I'm just hoping GM does something slightly more interesting than reveal that, say, all our fairy tales are derived from them because we can't quite express their huge creeping horror at the fringes of our consciousness. Making it more of a two-way street (we influence them, they influence us, they can't admit we influence them) might make it work a bit better if they got that route.
 
 
_Boboss
15:03 / 30.08.05
well yes, that was kind of my point really. otherwise he's really saying 'weird things are weird', rather than 'there are weird things. let's try to understand them a bit eh? we are people after, and few of us still on our first acid trip.'

See if chad’s right he’s just making the story smaller*, a classic move I’d say in reaching a point of analysis, noting a few similarities between related concepts and assuming they all mean the same thing, when, well, maybe they aren’t, even if the darkness they live in makes it seem like that.:

so princesses in fairy tales are really one character from one fairy tale – they basically mean the same thing, say pulchritudinous matter in a fine form, actual and potential entwined and reinforcing one another, your nice little h at the end of jhvh. And that’s it. That’s as far as it goes. No real insight into the fact that teenage girls might be understood to behave in a variety of ways - she’s a princess and she’s fit and that’s all there is to it. the princess from princess and the pea is the same as the princess/young woman from any version of bluebeard - it’s just the same old wives telling the same old bits of story to describe the same old single aspect of adolescent female psychology? I reckon that’s doing fairytale narrative’s skill at describing a variety of sophisticated situations a bit of a disservice, if we must do the jung with them at all.

in an neo-platonic interpretation i am familiar with, snow white in swnt7d is the monad and the dwarves her necessary and necessarily imperfect ‘offspring’ that bring us to the number of harmony. this already isn’t the same as the princess in a pack of tarot cards described above. Nor is that snow white the same, I don’t think, as the one whose sister is rose red and marries Arthur at the end after messing up the homunculus’ beard.


* I don’t think he’s wrong to do that, he’s usually spot-on spotting the refs and flavours, Misty probably is the stitch in time that will save the nine etc. - it just feels a bit wrong to me, disappointing. I think that seven sojers is going to have this problem: a superhero reappraisal of yr folklore/ bedtime-story baddies and goodies is going to cut corners and finally fail to explain why there’s a richness to those stories that comics should want to muck about with them in the first place. Like the spoils of annwn, I have a suspicion there’s only one real meaning here in 7soj, and it’s the writer (‘taliesin’/george) going ‘look at this, i done it and isn’t it resonant without meaning anything specific, ain’t I clever?’ It feels really, really good while you’re reading it, but to assume the existence of a underlying cosmology more coherent than ‘writers well fancy themselves and can make you feel right mysterious’ is i think flawed. is my feeling on this like the feeling of having been ‘overpromised’ to elsewhere? ‘taliesin’s early audiences would have better known his allusions better than I do, but were even they going any deeper than ‘oh, erdel gate, yeah manhunter yeah I get it’?


Question time, unrelato: is Frankenstein set in the future on mars, or just on mars? If the former it’s not looking too good for the heroes is it, perhaps they won’t do any better than their JLA/ pepper gulch/ newsboy army predecessors. Maybe they aren’t supposed to – they’re just there to stand in the way and fight until they stop, keeping the cider-menace happy and away til another spin is spun.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:16 / 30.08.05
Have you ever read Angela Carter's "The Bloody Chamber?" It's a collection or reinterpreted fairy tales, including Snow White. Her Red Riding Hood stories are a bit more well known (adapted into a very dodgy flick called "The Company of Wolves"), but she did some cool things with the stories and warped them as neccesary.

I'd agree that Misty (as our valiant example character) can't conflagrate all princesses - she isn't the Princess and the Pea, for example (who, as I recall, more represents bourgeous fussiness than anything), but elements have certainly been grafted on. Actually, keep in mind she's mostly elements of the non-royal princesses - Snow White was exiled, but the princess from Rumplestilskin was just a miller's daughter, wasn't she? Was Bluebeard's Wife even a princess, either?
 
 
The Falcon
15:35 / 30.08.05
Pyro could conflagrate all princesses.
 
 
The Falcon
15:42 / 30.08.05
Arianrhod.

See, I got the SW t'ing, but I was thinking bout Arachne and Ariadne, you know, with the spiders and the thread.

I think he's gaun for this world of allusion, but it's pretty firmly rooted in the Celt stuff.
 
 
Aertho
17:04 / 30.08.05
Everything you wrote was excellent, Gumbitch. I'll reread with more time. This though, deserves bolding:

I think that seven sojers is going to have this problem: a superhero reappraisal of yr folklore/ bedtime-story baddies and goodies is going to cut corners and finally fail to explain why there’s a richness to those stories that comics should want to muck about with them in the first place.

Isn't that exactly the problem we saw in JLA:C#1-3, and then again in 7S#0?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:36 / 31.08.05
Well, it can't be any worse than _The Brothers Grimm_...yuck.

esarE taht eivom morf ym dnim!
 
 
Aertho
03:07 / 01.09.05
Has anyone dissected the last name Misty gives Zatanna with her runaway cover story?

"Kilgore"

Anything literary in there? Annwn-translation?

I say this while going through 7S:Z#1-3 looking for the tops of Misty's ears. I wager they're pointy.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
04:35 / 01.09.05
well, just the Kurt Vonnegut character, Kilgore Trout, a fictional writer, and co-star of "Breakfast of Champions."
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:37 / 01.09.05
"...Angela Carter's "The Bloody Chamber?" ... adapted into a very dodgy flick called "The Company of Wolves")"

Ah, slings and arrows! This is a great movie, GREAT i say!!

"... she isn't the Princess and the Pea, for example (who, as I recall, more represents bourgeois fussiness than anything)"

My daughter (3) has a storybook where the princess' pea-detecting abilities reflect her royal/divine/special nature (she arrives at the castle drenched like a wet cat and nobody believes she is a princess) and the whole pea trick gambit is a cruel test devised by the evil --er, maybe just nasty and shallow -- queen to prove that our fair heroine is a common wench with aspirations of upward social mobility. The princess senses the pea, confounds the queen, then marries the queen's spoiled, persnickety son (the prince) and she seems to make a nice man out of him due to her common sense and good nature. So in some versions, Princess Pea is a bonnie brave lassie...

Anybody read any Marina Werner? I have some of her books (The Beast and the Blonde; No Go the Bogeyman) but have not had the opportunity to read them…
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:55 / 01.09.05
It's worth noting that the latest issue of Shining Knight explains both the a) strange sequence of events re: the cauldron and the Don and b) gives a pretty damn good possible candidate for Misty's dad (Glorianna's estranged husband).
 
 
Aertho
15:17 / 01.09.05
Why's everybody thinking Melmoth is Misty's dad? Glori's implied to have been alive for thousands of years. Nebuloh and the robot spiders are timetravellers. And Misty says herself that Glori's her step-mama.

Which implies that Misty's dad is only ONE of Glori's "husbands". Spyder might be a current squeeze, and Melmoth a previous one. I doubt the lineage is that clear.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
02:05 / 02.09.05
Is Snow White's father usually dead, in most tellings? Which explains why the stepmother can get away with having her taken out into the Woods and murdered; no reason to think Melmouth is her papa. I think Gloriana inherited Misty and remarried as soon as possible, like. Well, more like "took another lover."

furioso: Ah, slings and arrows! This is a great movie, GREAT i say!!

It's mostly dodgy because of the questionable budgeting/effects and that they made the symbolism a wee bit too heavy-handed for my liking. That, and I really want to see them do an adaptation of Carter's -other- Red Riding Hood story from the book, "The Werewolf" - where the big bad wolf is a little closer to home, and the ending's a bit more brutal.
 
 
Aertho
02:27 / 02.09.05
One thing though: Melmoth's head, with close-up on a very stitched neck.

Fast forward: Stitches > Frankenstein > Grundy > dead body > dead dad?

Dark Melmoth, alive?
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:35 / 02.09.05
"It's mostly dodgy because of the questionable budgeting/effects and that they made the symbolism a wee bit too heavy-handed for my liking. That, and I really want to see them do an adaptation of Carter's -other- Red Riding Hood story from the book, "The Werewolf" - where the big bad wolf is a little closer to home, and the ending's a bit more brutal."

Still, it's a rare thing: a fairy tale movie that can take you away if you let it. And not having loads of money is hardly the moviemakers fault. I liked the 'stagey" feel of some of the segements.

Quick Poll: how many other fairy tale movies are out there? Brothers Grimm, for one, but I gather this is not quite Terry's finest hour..
 
 
Aertho
14:19 / 02.09.05
Fairy Tale movies?

You mean co-opted fairy tales in mature context, or straightforward Fantasy genre?

Cause you've got the entire Disney catalog to rifle through.
 
 
Mark Parsons
17:59 / 02.09.05
I meant cool fairy tale flicks similar to the Jordan movie, or with at least a major resoncance with fairy tale structure, theme, elements, etc. And no, I would not count Disney, More Svenkmeyerish, Juneutesque Gilliamean stuff.
 
 
A
14:05 / 05.09.05
Zatanna #4



Written by Grant Morrison; Art by Ryan Sook & Mick Gray; Cover by Sook

Zatanna and Misty search for the 7 Unknown Men of Slaughter Swamp, only to find themselves face to face with a menace beyond imagination! The unexpected return of an almost unstoppable Golden Age master villain could spell doom for the Mistress of Magic unless she gets her groove on fast. Will Zatanna regain her powers in time for the ultimate magical duel with the ultimate cosmic criminal? With a storyline leading directly into the epic SEVEN SOLDIERS #1, the answer may not be what you expect!

A Soldier must die – will it be Zatanna?

DC Universe | 32pg. | Color | $2.99 US

On Sale October 5, 2005
 
 
Aertho
14:09 / 05.09.05
October 5? Criminy. Guardian's out this week. Then a whole month?
 
 
A
14:18 / 05.09.05
Mr Miracle #1 is out on September 25.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:35 / 05.09.05
From the Comicon interview with Morrison liked to elsewhere:

"If Klarion had been killed, the magic die wouldn't have been brought up from the depths. Without the TWO magic dice Misty Kilgore wouldn't be able to...etc etc."

So I'm assuming Misty gets the second die in issue 4?
 
 
Triplets
21:56 / 05.09.05
That cover is beautiful. Is Zatanna summoning/rewriting the (language of the) narrative?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:06 / 05.09.05
Or she's using Zatara's books to get her groove back.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:07 / 05.09.05
Is Zatanna summoning/rewriting the (language of the) narrative?

Sweet Christ on a Fourth Wall, I hope not.
 
 
Aertho
22:19 / 05.09.05
I'm assuming Misty gets the second die in issue 4?

Can't roll a seven without two die. That's the best I got.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:41 / 05.09.05
Chad, something tells me that's probably what it will amount to.
 
  

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