Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Comic Books >

7 Soldiers: Zatanna

Page: 1 2(3)4 5 6 7 8... 13

yawn - thing's buddy

09:28 / 08.04.05

i think American Gothic is the best - and most influential - DC superhero story . . . . ever! (and also the best)

really. (okay - maybe in the past 25 years)

And i’m touched to see Morrison treading lighlty across Moore’s tale -real respect in evidence.

American Gothic spawned Vertigo and Sandman - which is clear - but i can see echoes in Seven soldiers too - the all-consuming threat, the most obvious link.

loved the sensitive-criminals - american gothic mixup at the seance.

and is the apprentice not Emily Strange? - one of those end of the world girls GM talked about in “Interview with an Umpire?”

As for the whole project: So far, so incredible!

Hogarden is speechless.

Haus of Mystery

09:46 / 08.04.05

I fucking loved this.They keep getting better, eh?Got a real soft spot for the Magical DCU, and this was a nice addition. Sook's artwork was beeyootiful - that multi-dimensional page was so good - imagine how cunty that woukld be to translate from Morrison's panel description. Really liked Zatanna as well. I think Mozzer's reallyupped his game in terms of making these flawed heroes human and likeable. Makes a change from all the super-smugness of recent times. Just aces really.

10:10 / 08.04.05

Kovacs, pretty much. Asking why Morrison doesn't use his magic powers to increase the sales of his books, is a) pretty off topic, b) likely to lead to baseless speculation about Morrison's motivations and psychology, and c) probably better answered by people who actually know a bit about this stuff.

yawn - thing's buddy

11:17 / 08.04.05

by the way i cant beleive that there are loads of cool mozz comics drifting around just now.

s'like a dream:

"yeah, then i went into this hardware store and there was a bundle of comics wrapped up next to the paint-stripper stuff and there were loads of Grant Morrison titles - all number ones - but they were all really obscure characters and the artwork was amazing in all of them."

s'all good.

15:37 / 08.04.05

I feel that kovacs' question is both amusing and not entirely irrevelant to the discussion, if only for a funny one-off comment.

I've wondered that myself about Morrison...

16:46 / 08.04.05

I'm french, I'll reply to Kovacs.
He wrote Arkham Asylum, the best selling graphic novel, He wrote X-men, one of the top ten titles. He'll write All Star Superman. One of the next top Three books.
Gosh, I'd like to have books that sold THAT bad.

Ok, now, about Zatanna : fucking great. fucking great.
gnikcuf taerg.
oh... evening will be good...

17:15 / 08.04.05

I was thinking about just that (the sales of Grant's bigger-character books) at lunch.

Also, if his book agent for Pop Magic and IF really is the agent who worked on The DaVinci Code, maybe Morrison is about to have a new explosion in the public eye...these things do take time and watering, after all, like a tree or a plant...

miss wonderstarr

17:17 / 08.04.05

You might notice I wasn't asking about venerable old tomes like Arkham Asylum from fifteen years ago -- when he was claiming to be the Morrissey of graphic novels, not a magician -- but Morrison's recent projects that have sold disappointingly.

Morrison clearly planned two more books of Seaguy and would have liked better sales of the first three issues. His plans were thwarted. What kind of magical influence can Morrison really claim if he can't ensure his work sells adequately for DC to commission the second and third parts of a project?

Surely if you want your work to be a hyper-sigil, it's an obvious stumbling block if you can't make it appeal to the market or convince your publishers to support it? Wouldn't a basic step in that magic process be "reach an audience"? Morrison talks frequently about comics becoming pop, fashionable, more exciting than cinema or videogames. A lot of his books, nevertheless, get cancelled and don't even sell decently within the minority comic-reader community. Are his boasts about being a powerful magician simply bogus?

I realise this could be considered off-topic although it's on a thread about magic and Morrison -- but it's a specific question about the writer and the comic book industry, so I don't really know if it would be suitable for the Temple. However, if I'm advised to I will paste my ideas into a thread there.

18:21 / 08.04.05

Kove, I think you're stretching when you say this is a thread about magic and Morrison.

A lot of his books, nevertheless, get cancelled and don't even sell decently within the minority comic-reader community. Are his boasts about being a powerful magician simply bogus?

I'm just not sure how we're supposed to answer this, and, even if we could, how any such answer would be relevant to this thread.

18:26 / 08.04.05

Dear kovacs.
All magicians die poor, mad or in flames.
sometime, the three at once. There must be some kind of truth in that...

And, now, just to repeat myself. Morrison is going to write one of the two or three most successful books this year.
He's going to write a book that will be widely more popular than the Ultimates and that will probably sell as much if not better.
It's planned. And that's quite a magical feat.

Also, there's a thing. He has quite the sufficient influence or mojo to write what he wants (exception of Sea Guy sequel and Marvel Boy sequel, maybe).
I know a lot of writers that would love to have half that influence.
Myself included.

18:34 / 08.04.05

in flames.
stoned or in flames.

Spoo.

miss wonderstarr

20:39 / 08.04.05

Morrison is going to achieve the feat of decent sales on Superman because he's a comic book writer doing Superman. That he can't get a decent readership for his more obscure personal projects seems, to me, a stumbling block in his plans to work magic through his writing.

But maybe I will just take this to the other forum. I'm sorry if it was too off-topic here.

21:26 / 08.04.05

I tend to think it's very on topic myself.
But i tend to think you're wrong on that one.
You may have your opinion, of course.

But writing and magic are 2 different things. If he wants to write for the largest audience, he does. If he wants to write for a not so large audience, he does too.
How many writers you personally know can do both ?

miss wonderstarr

22:05 / 08.04.05

You can't tell me he wanted Marvel Boy to be cancelled, Seaguy to collapse after the first trilogy or Vimanarama to get steadily-dwindling sales on the first two issues. As these more personal comic book projects are often described by Morrison in terms of experiments in text-based magic, making fiction real and so on, I think there is an interesting contradiction in the fact that he talks about the effects he wants to achieve through this work, but can't (as a writer, producer or magician) reach the requisite audience or convince the relevant publishers to even keep those projects going.

Some of my questions above were a bit rhetorical, eg. "how powerful is Mozz as a magician if he can't even get good sales."

But seeing as I want to believe in his pop mag!c ideas, and find all these ambitious schemes of his really interesting, I'm kind of disappointed by the fact that while he thinks his books can work as a sigil, any power they carry in that respect doesn't seem enough to draw in enough potential readers or keep those readers with the project from one issue to the next.

Unfortunately this is becoming a barrier to me believing in Morrison's fascinating theories. I don't think he was deliberately seeking a small but passionate readership for Seaguy and wasn't bothered that it didn't go to #4. Equally, he seemed frustrated that The Filth wasn't easily understood and remained underappreciated. He does talk about making comics fashionable youth accessories, buzz-texts like TV shows, throwaway pop like cinema blockbusters: but many of his comics recently haven't even been popular as comics.

I'm repeating myself I know, but I'm not really trying to rubbish Morrison. What I'm saying is that I find his magic theory very appealing but it seems to be flawed in practice.

22:20 / 08.04.05

I just think you unerstand magic as in role playing games. There are no fireball here, no lighting nolts.
Magic is not about having good sales. It's about doing things.
Doing things and communicatings with other things.
ask Gypsy Lantern for a crash course if you want, he's a lot more versed than me.
Alan Moore is a fucking great magician. Does he sell a lot ? no. But he writes. That's magic.

22:44 / 08.04.05

I thought Zatanna #1 was a really good issue.

22:50 / 08.04.05

Kovacs;

I think it's pretty clear that Morrison's magickal powers have waned since he married 'that' woman...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:09 / 09.04.05

Also, there's a thing. He has quite the sufficient influence or mojo to write what he wants (exception of Sea Guy sequel and Marvel Boy sequel, maybe).
I know a lot of writers that would love to have half that influence.

That's a fairly damn good point also.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

00:45 / 09.04.05

I quite like the idea that Zatanna's power fails because she's lost focus with her life and it reminds me of that idea about "the path of magic" having periods of extreme weakness and poverty juxtaposes with periods of power and wealth.

miss wonderstarr

08:00 / 09.04.05

I don't think Morrison does have the influence to write whatever he wants. Seaguy is the best and most recent example. Yes, of course I'd like that opportunity as well as 2% of his talent, but in that respect he's only really in the same position as Garth Ennis or Neil Gaiman, neither of whom are practicing magicians.

I just think you unerstand magic as in role playing games. There are no fireball here, no lighting nolts.
Magic is not about having good sales. It's about doing things.
Doing things and communicatings with other things.
ask Gypsy Lantern for a crash course if you want, he's a lot more versed than me.
Alan Moore is a fucking great magician. Does he sell a lot ? no. But he writes. That's magic.

I thought we were having a reasonable discussion, and your decision here to patronise while ignoring what I've said above is disappointing. Surely my posts above made it clear that I have listened to or read what Morrison says about magic, and don't get my ideas from a Basic Dungeons & Dragons module. I don't believe I've said "If Morrison is a magician, why isn't he Turning Undead or forging a sword +2." Morrison speaks of working magic through his creative work. I'm also not saying "if he's a magician, why can't he magic up good sales figures."

I'm saying that if he treats comics as a form of sigil for changing people's reality, and those creations don't manage to draw enough readers in or convince producers to recommission them -- thus limiting his intentions and undermining his bigger project -- then doesn't that imply that his magic-thru-writing has "failed" with something like Seaguy, or Vimanarama with its dwindling sales, or the Filth which many people didn't connect with?

If writing is magic, then we are all magicians for posting on here. I think there's a distinction to be made between writers in general and writers who also identify as practicing magicians. Moore, you're right, is another example. But I have seen Morrison saying he wants his comics to have a massive popular audience, and implying that for them to achieve the world-changing, peception-altering effect he wants, they would need a massive popular audience.

I am not dissing Morrison or magic so there is no need to get defensive.

08:02 / 09.04.05

Guys, this is a thread about a comic written by GM that happens to feature magic. This is not a thread about Grant Morrison's personal approach to magic, his success as a magician, or broader magical theory.

Louise, I understand your desire to discuss these issues, but you'll need to do more than say "I reckon it's on topic" to persuade me. As far as I'm concerned, this thread is running the risk of being seriously derailed.

09:06 / 09.04.05

Kovacs :
Some of my questions above were a bit rhetorical, eg. "how powerful is Mozz as a magician if he can't even get good sales."
You didn't say that. Ok. Must be my lack of mastering this nice language. My mistake ?

ok. Now, if this thread is indeed off topic (how can a therad on a comics writer and one of his title be off topic ?) as it seems to be, let that be my last post on the subject..
Yes, by writing, you're kinda magician. That's the first step.
To be published, believe me, you have to mojo yourself a bit. You have to make choices and believe in yourself.
Then, after that you're conscious or not to be a magician. It took Alan Moore a lot of time to be conscious of that.

On the subject of influence : Invisibles didn't sold much, indeed. But what is the proportion of readers whose world vision's changed ? my guess, is a lot.
On the subject of books and sales : Aleister Crowley's book never sold when he was alive. Never. I believe he was a great magician.
And Morrison sells about two or three times Ennis or Gaiman. Best sells vs best sells.

Now, in topic, Zatanna issue 1 contains a great thing I experienced myself. Not focusing when casting.
I didn't brought the apocalypse, mind you, I just got a nice little divorce.
Must have been a coincidence, though.

I'm not being defensive, this is a discussion.
"If you want to be right and others to shut up, don't discuss."
Chinese proverb from a long time ago. rough translation.

miss wonderstarr

10:08 / 09.04.05

I feel The Invisibles is an example of Morrison succeeding in what he proposed, in terms of working magic through his creative art. The Invisibles did change people's lives and outlook -- it blurred the boundaries between Morrison's experiences and identity and the fiction, with him feeding his hallucinations into the story and, in turn, "becoming" King Mob -- it shaped a lot of readers' perceptions about magic, including my own, and ultimately, impressively, it helped inspire an entire internet community in the form of this very site. I buy into Morrison's theory that The Invisibles was a "spell", a "hyper-sigil" that would cross from his fiction into our reality.

So to an extent, I think we agree. At this point, where I've said what I wanted to say several times, and reached some kind of understanding through discussion, I really will stop taking this off-topic.

14:03 / 09.04.05

Morrison sells about two or three times Ennis or Gaiman.

Only not.

Compare Preacher and Sandman (the respective writers longform titles for Vertigo) v. The Invisibles. 1602 was, largely, rubbish and - iirc - outsold New X-Men, which was not. So.

That said, I consider Sandman a magickal work, regardless of what Neil might think.

Kovacs; I think th only comparison available is that which is currently possible in a fucked market - Moore, a man largely regarded as the greatest comicbook writer of an era, has a special deal for his ABC books which you could compare in creator-owned stakes: Tom Strong's Terrific Tales v. The Filth? I think the latter won.

I think, on these terms, only Vaughn's Ex Machina outsells the Crack!Comicks, in fact (can't be bothered researching it just now, if ever) which is an indictment of how comics sell/are sold and sad state of affairs.

14:31 / 09.04.05

Jesus, isn't this supposed to be thread about Zatanna. Louise, you must stop now. Kovacs, go and start a thread. Moderators, get the fuck on it. Please.

I have to say, Mac's quite right when he describes this as the best SS book so far. It really, really rocks. I love the feeling that, when we meet weird shit beings like King Ra Man, The Red God and even Baron Winter, these things really are totally out there. Moore's magic-verse is so rational and knowable. This is something else. It's scary. Another thing, I knew Gimmix's "I'm off out West" bit was obligatory, but it still gave me the shivers.

The Natural Way

14:32 / 09.04.05

That was me, BTW. I don't feel well.

14:33 / 09.04.05

Back o/t, here's a prospective grist to the Grant-versus-Alan-mill review.

16:03 / 09.04.05

Grist's got himself involved now, has he?

Haus of Mystery

16:21 / 09.04.05

I find the Morrison magic-verse to be more fun personally. I know 'Promethea' was an amazing feat, but I'm a cheap slut basically, so give me big red universe-devourers any day.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

16:38 / 09.04.05

I like them both, actually. 'Promethea' was all about the Apocalypse As A Good Thing and consequently EVERYTHING was a good thing if you got right down to it and could get perspective on the issue. With Zee and Morrison's take on the DCU's magic-verse? Well, it's all derived out of horror comics and the Apocalypse is again the issue, but it's a more traditional "bad" Apocalypse. I almost find it a bit weird to compare them (besides the fact that Morrsion compresses the magic-verse into one issue) just because they go off in opposite directions. I like what was said about Morrison's 'verse being scary and "out there." Zatanna's function is the battle the forces of evil, whereas Promethea's fight was against the forces of the mundane. Different functions require different environments.

miss wonderstarr

16:40 / 09.04.05

Jesus, isn't this supposed to be thread about Zatanna. Louise, you must stop now. Kovacs, go and start a thread. Moderators, get the fuck on it. Please.

I don't see this as necessary seeing as we had both moderated ourselves and agreed, with apologies on my part, to stop that discussion.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

23:05 / 09.04.05

nayR kooS, ward na sibI seires!

00:42 / 10.04.05

I found a possible referent for the Red God. There's an old Zatara foe called "The Warlock of Ys" who's shown up in Green Lantern and JSA a few times. While he's not nearly as scary as the Red God, he DOES have red skin.

See here.

And a picture of the character here
(the Warlock is the guy on the left in panel #2)

09:37 / 10.04.05

Kovacs said it all and I agree with him.
About 1602. my mistake. It's so not Gaiman that I forgot about it.
I was wrong on that one.
Not the first time, nor the last...

11:17 / 10.04.05

Mario, I think you're reaching, mate.

Page: 1 2(3)4 5 6 7 8... 13