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The New Doctor Who

 
  

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Bed Head
13:51 / 12.06.05
But how does he know that they "shouldn't exist"?

Where’s the *problem* with him knowing about the Time Wars? The daleks shouldn't exist because they were all wiped out in the Time Wars, right? Jabe knew about the Time Wars, the bloody Gelth know about the outcome of the Time Wars, I think everyone throughout all of time is supposed to know about the Time Wars and what happened.
 
 
Bed Head
15:16 / 12.06.05
Hm. So, it’s just the usual 45 minutes next week? They’re really going to have to rattle along some if they’re going to fit in an entire war and still have room for a secret villain and a regeneration. Am I bound to be disappointed if I start hoping it’s only going to be a set up for the Christmas special, and that the Christmas spesh will be feature length and have Eccles in it, too?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:34 / 12.06.05
Eccleston was saying that he'd be in the Christmas special before the series had started, Bed - that'll be when we see the regeneration.

Where’s the *problem* with him knowing about the Time Wars? The daleks shouldn't exist because they were all wiped out in the Time Wars, right? Jabe knew about the Time Wars, the bloody Gelth know about the outcome of the Time Wars, I think everyone throughout all of time is supposed to know about the Time Wars and what happened.

Jabe knew about the Time Wars, but Jabe's from a point in the future that's far distant from Jack's time - humans are no longer human, the Earth's come to the end of its life. The suggestion with the Gelth was that they were either actively involved in the Time War or bystanders who got swallowed up in its wake.

The problem with Jack? Well, I've had this paradox rattling around my head ever since he said that line, but I'm struggling to grasp hold of it now. Wish I'd scribbled it down at the time. I'll get back to you.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:58 / 12.06.05
this to me seems a little strange, the Daleks are evil genocidal murderers without a doubt – but they are a very utilitarian, practical people, with almost conception of pleasure or entertainment – I’d have thought that murder as a formalised game and form of spectator sport would seem a pretty sick, alien and most of all decadent practice to them, although possibly no more so than any other form of entertainment.

Well, yeah - and somehow planting the words 'Bad Wolf' everywhere throughout time as part of some sinister masterplan doesn't seem all that Daleky either. I reckon in all likelihood, it wasn't their idea - it's the brainchild of whoever it was saved the Daleks from the Time War.

Was it ever established which part of London Mickey came from? What if it was... Bow?
 
 
sleazenation
16:09 / 12.06.05
Wow. That is the only reply that is possible to flyboy's piece of speculation...
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
16:55 / 12.06.05
I wonder whether it is the ‘Bad Wolf’ itself that’s plastered the words everywhere the Doctor and Rose have been. While it could be comic book villain style smug clue giving I wonder whether it could possibly be someone else trying to give cryptic hints to the Doctor either in an attempt to help or to play the Doctor and the ‘Bad Wolf’ off against each other for some unknown reason.
 
 
Bed Head
17:53 / 12.06.05
Eccleston was saying that he'd be in the Christmas special before the series had started, Bed - that'll be when we see the regeneration.

*overjoyed*

The problem with Jack? Well, I've had this paradox rattling around my head ever since he said that line

..look forward to hearing The Jack Problem, but I suppose that *none* of the Time War stuff can work unless there’s some magical cosmic rule that keeps all time travellers - Jack, the Doctor, the Daleks - forever fixed to the same timeline in relation to each other. They can’t dip in and out of each other’s histories: the war is in Jack’s recent past as much as it is in the Doctor’s, now the daleks have appeared and they’re all miraculously on the same page.

Eek, time travel. It’s never going to make too much sense, even without all the rewriting history stuff that’s been going on. (Or: I just don’t have the kind of brain that’s very good at unravelling this stuff)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:55 / 12.06.05
Ah, now I remember what my main objection to that line is. Bear with me here, because it's a bit silly. But it's fun silly. Maybe. Depending on your definition of fun.

Go back to my earlier post about Jack. He comes from a 51st Century version of humanity that hasn't been stunted by the Daleks - we know this because he fits in exactly with what the Doctor knows a 51st Century human to be. The technology's right, the culture's right, the outlook on life's right. Now, the only way that this can be is if the Doctor manages to defeat the Daleks in the next episode.

But... if the Doctor defeats the Daleks in the next episode and enables humanity to evolve the way it was supposed to, then it must surely be written in the history books that humanity was enslaved by the Daleks (or an alien race, at any rate). Which means that humanity in the 51st Century, for Jack to be who he is, must know about Satellite Whateveritscalled and the shenanigans that went on around it - the reality shows, the slavery, the stunted evolution. Which means that Jack must know. But he doesn't.

Yes? No?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:58 / 12.06.05
By that rationale, the Doctor should know as well. All time travel is paradox. For example, when did the Time War happen?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:59 / 12.06.05
The only way I can square it is if the Who universe is a multiverse, with every single different choice and outcome resulting in a splitting off and creation of a new strand for each of the alternatives. That could well be the case - it's a TARDIS, after all - but if it is, then I don't think it's anything that's ever been mentioned in the show itself.

Maybe the associated, official literature?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:59 / 12.06.05
Yeah, but the Doctor's a Timelord, Fly. Don't they exist outside of the regular boundaries?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
18:11 / 12.06.05
Maybe Jack does know and he’s lying. He’s already shown himself to be a bloody good liar after all. On the other hand maybe he is being honest and his memory has been Swiss cheesed by all the timeline changes going.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:23 / 12.06.05
Just saw the show on repeat.

Loved the whole lot, they really are playing the laughs just right. I'm let down by Eccle's "I'm not in a light comedy mood" mood swings on set now.

Did they explain what Bad Wolf meant?
It was the name of the television station, therefore the woman who "hid" the Doctor in the reality tv game shows could have been sending subliminal messages through time...
But that doesn't sound quite right.

Next week I expect a few things to happen -
-The doctor dies. Hasn't Casanova been confirmed for the Xmas special?
-Jack defects or dies a hero.
-Mickey/Adam returns. Still not sure which one they're hinting it is but it's got to be one or the other.
-Rose defeats the Daleks. She's needs an episode where she "saves the day".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:35 / 12.06.05
I'm thinking Adam, wearing a Dalek battle computer from Remembrance of the Daleks or maybe an alternate Rose of some kind, in a Dalek battle computer. It's got to be someone fairly contemporary to show why they chose contemporary gameshows for the far future. But anyway, I leave you with this, scroll down to 'Just for Fun'...
 
 
Bed Head
18:46 / 12.06.05
Yeah, but the Doctor's a Timelord, Fly. Don't they exist outside of the regular boundaries?

But what I’m saying is that maybe *all* time travellers exist outside of normal time, a separate continuity that stays relatively stable while the rest of the universe is getting rewritten all the time. Jack’s from the 51st century, but that’s not to say he’s still of the 51st century, or that his time travel technology thingummybobs come from the 51st century, is it? He might have been caught up in a time storm, like Ace, and ended up somewhere else before he became a 'Time Agent'. I mean, the people in the second episode: none of them were time travellers, were they? It’s not a common thing.

I think that it’s not so much a multiverse: it’s just the one universe, that gets changed around a bit, while the time travellers can see the changes happening but aren’t affected by the changes themselves. Except in a time war, which happens all the way through the universe, from beginning to end - that’s how come both the Gelth and Jabe know about it - and after which Time Lords and Daleks don’t exist/haven’t ever existed. Or so everyone thinks. Like at the end of Donnie Darko, where everyone is half-remembering things that haven’t happened.

This *does* feel rather silly. Like I’m probably missing some blindingly obvious point.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:42 / 12.06.05
I always tended to think that it was something peculiar to the Timelords, or species that have time travel in their genes.

The idea of a multiverse can hide a whole motorway's worth of car crash contradictions. Otherwise, you end up at the logical conclusion that the Doctor might as well sit back and do nothing, given that the next time he travels into the past his actions will simply invalidate everything he's done in the future.

The multiverse would also explain how nobody in the future appears to have any records about the Doctor. Cassandra seemed to be aware of a lot of human history. Why didn't she (or any of the other far-future humans he's met) say, what, the Doctor? The alien that stopped the entire human race from being turned into a bunch of giant fly/bug things when our ancestors emigrated from our home planet on the Ark? No way! Dude!

And I like the idea of the Doctor being this guy who flits about, creating a brand new tangent universe every single time he lands his ship. I like the idea of the TARDIS knowing that this is happening, and purposefully using the Doctor as a means of spreading its universe-creating seed.

Obviously, this is the episode I want to write.
 
 
sleazenation
19:49 / 12.06.05
OOOOOOOOOO I like the idea of Rose being behind 'the voice' in some form. tangently this could even take the form of the dalek form 'dalek' turning up as a mutated emperor dalek figure - The clue could well be in the line "The Daleks survive in me" a line the dalek originally delivered in episode 6....
 
 
sleazenation
19:53 / 12.06.05
Spatula - dude Cassandra seems overwhelmingly ignorant of earth history and couldn't tell the difference between a juke box and an iPod...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:02 / 12.06.05
Heh. Good point. But you get what I mean, yeah? There has to be mention of him somewhere in human history. Not just the conspiracy website stuff, either - it's understandable that his existence and influence in army-related action would be kept under wraps. But the guy saved the entire human race! At least a squillion times! And he keeps on doing it, yet nobody, bar one bloke in his garden shed, has noticed.
 
 
Triplets
21:12 / 12.06.05
Lady!, thank you for the best link on Barbelith in quite some time
 
 
Triplets
21:15 / 12.06.05
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:13 / 12.06.05
Effers. I keep forgetting to reply to things.

planting the words 'Bad Wolf' everywhere throughout time as part of some sinister masterplan doesn't seem all that Daleky either. I reckon in all likelihood, it wasn't their idea - it's the brainchild of whoever it was saved the Daleks from the Time War.

I figured that the words Bad Wolf kept on popping up because the girl that the Daleks were using as... whatever she was, a conduit for misinformation, or whatever, she'd been using her power to drop the Doc hints every now and again. The one bloke said that she was five years old when she was installed in floor 500 - just the right age to have learned some fairy tales and nursery rhymes. She can't say who her 'masters' are, not by name, so instead she uses the name of the thing that they most remind her of.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:37 / 13.06.05
The Bad Wolf site suggests, (in addition to versions of many of the theories here) that the "Bad Wolf" clues are psychic projections by the TARDIS herself.
 
 
Benny the Ball
05:06 / 13.06.05
Jack's had his memory tampered with, remember - didn't they mention something about it in the 'are you my mummy' episodes? So maybe Bad Wolf is the tamperer.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:05 / 13.06.05
id like to see the master pop up somewhere.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:28 / 13.06.05
Yeah. Like next season or the one after. But not next week.
 
 
Triplets
08:35 / 13.06.05
Indeed. If we're going on this 'Master hijacking the Doctor' idea I'd like to see him split off from the Doctor next season; Casanova becoming the Doctor and the Master wearing Eccleston's face like.

Well, I can dream.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:52 / 13.06.05
For once, for once I managed to reach the TV remote in time to switch off before next week's trailer. So can everybody please, please not talk about 'voices we may recognise' in too much detail?

I like the theory about the controller sending out subliminal messages to help the Doctor, and having a child's recollection of scary things as her reason for calling the Daleks 'Bad Wolf', but if that were the case then how come the TV station is actually called Bad Wolf?
 
 
DaveBCooper
10:14 / 13.06.05
I loved his big speech at the end of this episode, about how he’s going to save Rose, and the earth, and then, as a bonus, wipe them all out. Real action hero stuff, but the Eccster’s delivery made it work, I thought.
 
 
Bed Head
10:19 / 13.06.05
So can everybody please, please not talk about 'voices we may recognise' in too much detail?

er... has anyone? Where has this come from?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:41 / 13.06.05
I think we all discussed it a bit on Page 16... indeed you said *you* think you know who that voice in the trailer was, and *I* think I know who that voice was... okay, maybe not too much detail, but I think Lula's post was more by way of a request than censure...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:50 / 13.06.05
Absolutely, and the moment where Ecclestone sort of squares up to the camera, cricks his neck and straightens his shoulders and what not, was superb: half action hero swagger, half involuntary physical reaction/shudder to seeing those monsters. I love the way this series has made the Doctor/Dalek conflict so much more bitterly personal.

Other things I liked about this episode:

- The Doctor starts to rant about humanity being mindless sheep enslaved by TV, then stops to ask whether "they still have that one where three people share a house with a bear?" - a brilliant comment on how people who think TV is enslaving mindless sheeple always make an exception for their own favourite shows, and a little reminder from RTD that as he said on Dr Who Confidential, he loves TV really and the satire is affectionate.

- Captain Jack = best companion EVAH. He keeps a gun up his arse - nuff said - but I also love the way he's half 1940s clean-cut American GI, half polysexual ethically ambiguous conman, and somehow the two integrate seamlessly. Apparently he'll be back next season, which is a relief.

- The speed at which everything moves once the Doctor gets out of the 'house'.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:56 / 13.06.05
Yes, I thought Captain Jack was fun for the Empty Child story, but would soon outstay his welcome and start pissing me off. But the opposite has happened, and now I think he's ace.

(As I think I said upthread, the "living with a bear" exchange was the BEST BIT OF THE WHOLE SERIES YET, and I'd just like to take this opportunity to apologise to anyone who's seen me since Saturday night for going on about it so much).

Ahh, Daleks. At the moment I don't care what contortions they've had to put continuity through to bring us to this point... I'm just glad we're here. I'll think about that other stuff when the "ahh, Daleks" high has worn off.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:00 / 13.06.05
There are a couple of reasons that Jack recognises the Dalek warships, the primary one being that Daleks have invaded the Earth at least once before the 51st century (that old Hartnell classic Dalek Invasion of Earth). So they might be a boogy man from Earth's past for him but still a recognisable menace.

Alternatively, he's an ex-time agent. Daleks have time corridor technology. Presumabley the Time Agents have run into them on occasion (perhaps the Agents were involved in the war).

I think the Time War can be assumed to have occurred similtaneously in various periods of history. Hence the name.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:09 / 13.06.05
Randomly: I especially liked the fact that one of the doctor's last line to Rose was 'I'm coming to get you!' - a nice little oblique reference to Big Brother. I only noticed it the second time I watched it.

BTW, I was indeed referring to the previous pages conversation -proof at least that I do read all of the posts in a thread. It's no biggie though, and was only because for the first time in the whole series I managed to avoid the trailer. I like guessing what's going to happen, I just don't want to know for sure.
 
  

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