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The New Doctor Who

 
  

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Rawk'n'Roll
18:37 / 22.05.05
It seems to me the easy thing to do here is to take SPOILERS out of the title of this thread, since it was originally referring to people who had seen the first episode before its official release.

Um... isn't that the same thing that has been done here?
The main complaint seemed to be about discussing Jack, who turns up in this weeks episode. Thats only one week ahead and you can get as much from the trailer after the previous weeks episode.


Anyway, "spoilers only work when I say they work" grumbling aside, on second viewing it was better.
It seems I missed all the creepy bits on saturday night whilst cooking dinner. Loved the CGI as the doctor (not Doctor) turned into a gas mask. Very creepy. Not buying Jack at all just yet but have been promised he does better things in future episodes. Which I won't mention here for fear of being lynched.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:50 / 22.05.05
The thread title was altered after Haus made the suggestion. From hereon in, posts about the specific details of upcoming episodes - rather than predictions about those episodes based on the ones already screened on BBC1 - should include their own spoiler warnings. Fair enough?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:55 / 22.05.05
Which I won't mention here for fear of being lynched.

Glad you didn't share your future knowledge then. I can see why you don't even have to bother to watch the show like the rest of us ordinary mortals though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:25 / 22.05.05
And it's now occurred to me, after seeing the infected guys at the end, just how much scarier zombies would be if they kept asking for their mummy

Deffo. Likewise, child's voices coming through turned-off radios - always scary. Dead people's voices coming through telephones - creepy (if already used in this series - were the writers not talking to each other?). It's the most comprehensive set of creepy tropes since Paperhouse.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:38 / 22.05.05
Well.

I've just come downstairs from my seven-year-old's room after having to put the light on and leave the door open, due to a fit of the screaming hab-dabs epitomised by the line, "I can't get them out of my he-e-ad" (Mummy).

He-he. I remember that feeling, only mine was about the Darleks.

So that's another vote for scariest episode yet.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:50 / 22.05.05
I found Captain Jack's resemblance to Big from Sex & The Horse-Faced Woman rather disturbing. But a fantastic episode otherwise - I firmly expect "Muuuuuummy... Are you my mummy?" to be endlessly repeated here and in the pub...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
19:59 / 22.05.05
I can see why you don't even have to bother to watch the show like the rest of us ordinary mortals though.

Reign your sarcasm back in mister. I'll have you know I watched it twice, last night and the repeat on BBC3, I just didn't pay much attention (because it didn't grab me as much as previous episodes) the first time.
 
 
DaveBCooper
10:34 / 23.05.05
Was the writer the same chap who wrote Press Gang, Joking Apart and (the UK) Coupling ? If so, what with this and the Gattiss episode, I think it’s interesting to see how people primarily thought of as comedy writers are coming up with the creepier tales…
 
 
nedrichards is confused
10:44 / 23.05.05
Yes Haus, 'Watson can you hear me' always adds a touch of creepy class to everything it touches.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:07 / 23.05.05
what with this and the Gattiss episode

To be honest, I was expecting something spooksome from Gatiss- well, hoping for it, at any rate- for me, it was always the darkness in LOG that made it funny. His episode, this one and Father's Day are my favourites so far- they all really nailed the horror aspects of classic Who for me Another favourite old-skool story was "The Horror Of Fang Rock", which managed to work so well at being creepy that it still worked even after the shit monster actually showed itself. I was scared that with the new ones, their greater confidence in the effects would lead them to think they didn't need to work so hard on the creepy- but I really needn't have worried).
 
 
Spaniel
15:07 / 23.05.05
Dave, have you actually seen LoG? I mean, it's pretty much wall to wall nasty-disturbingness.

That fucking Christmas special.
 
 
sleazenation
15:16 / 23.05.05
yes It is the same 'press gang' moffat.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:32 / 23.05.05
Or Grand Moff Stephen, as we called him back in 'Nam.

I loved this one. But then I haven't seen a single one so far I haven't loved...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:11 / 28.05.05
A banana?

Where the fuck did a banana come from in wartorn London?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:21 / 28.05.05
Next week:

Slitheen. In current day Britain.

/me cries.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
18:55 / 28.05.05
SPOILERS FROM HERE ON IN.

Where the fuck did a banana come from in wartorn London?

I think the joke is that the Doctor still had it from whatever he did to the armoury that replaced it with a banana grove, which also proved that he'd done it, adding to the Freudian subtext with the whole banana/sonic blaster/sonic screwdriver/destruction of phallic spaceship.

I think this may have to be the Best Episode Ever. As soon as the revelation about Nancy came out, I was dreading one of those endings when all the vaguely "minority" characters are finished off at the end (quotation marks for hatred of the term there encapsulated), and so was Exultantly Joyful at the eventual Wondrous Resolution. And the Doctor got to do actual doctoring, just on a cosmic scale with nanogenes and zombies.

Perfect moments:
"My leg's grown back"

"Just for once, everyone LIVES!"

Having said that, I thought the Doctor's line "But which one" at the end was a bit clumsy in the treatment of Jack's sexuality, and I wasn't sure about exactly what the implication was about Fat Angry Patriarch and the butcher; was it that he was meant to be "fooling around" in the literal sense, or was it a reference to the black market? If the latter, fair enough, but if the former, there's some extremely dodgy ground being trod there, unless it was written as a contrast to Jack's complete lack of shame.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:10 / 28.05.05
I really don't understand why you think that was "dodgy." If the married guy was special friends with the butcher and Nancy knew that, would you really expect her to not use the knowledge as blackmail once he'd threatened her with the police? That this wouldn't be seen as an effective way to shame a father and husband in the 1940s?

Moffatt, imo, was wanting the audience to draw a direct comparison with Jack's life there. Having the Doctor say to us, look, in the 20th and 21st centuries you actually thought that somebody else's sexuality was something to attack them with if it didn't line up with your own or with some sort of societal norm - in the 51st century, on the other hand, when you've finally grown the fuck up just a little bit, nobody particularly cares who's banging who. As the technology you use evolves and grows, as your geographical and emotional boundaries widen, so too do the beliefs of the society you live in. The future's a wonderful thing.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
21:23 / 28.05.05
I really don't understand why you think that was "dodgy." If the married guy was special friends with the butcher and Nancy knew that, would you really expect her to not use the knowledge as blackmail once he'd threatened her with the police?

I may be heinously overreacting here, so please feel free to ignore. However, I meant that it was "dodgy" in a metatextual sense rather than by the programme's internal logic - if this was real life then your point would stand, but given that these events are being written and are therefore there for a reason. I think the Preacher/gay villain debate pretty much covered this point better than I could, so I'll leave it there.

It seems like one of the major themes of this WHO is that of the transcendence of parochial mores - an excellent example of this being Rose's shocked reaction to Jack's bi?(poly? pan?)sexuality and the Doctor's matter-of-fact response. To have a positive (and progressive - see the "black-market" references and the Doctor's appreciative reaction last episode) character such as Nancy use another character's sexuality as a source of shame and control doesn't seem to mesh with what I perceive as the broad ethos of the series. If, however, this scene is meant to demonstrate the lack of liberation and openness in the society of 1941 in contrast to the (presumably) non-discriminatory world of Cap'n Jack's future, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and I applaud.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:39 / 28.05.05
Heh. I've got an edit to my previous post waiting to go through that suggests exactly the same - that the viewer's supposed to take notice of the different attitudes to sexuality that the characters from different centuries have. Was hoping it'd go through before you came back to the thread.
 
 
Benny the Ball
22:44 / 28.05.05
Well, I haven't gotten into the series in a major way yet, just wasn't sitting right, but this episode set up that it's a new Doctor Who perfectly, and I really, really enjoyed it. The whole 'sonics' exchange was fantastic ("I'm all sonic-ed up here" was a great line) and the who three way dynamic between Jack, Doctor and Rose worked really really well. The story itself was fun enough, and a well played idea, the homeless girl was well played for the most, didn't veer too close to Elisa Doolittle and the whole tone was fantastical enough to keep it sci-fi.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:17 / 29.05.05
That was, pretty much, PERFECT Doctor Who as far as I'm concerned. Beautiful, scary, horribly messy plot-wise but with a neat resolution that didn't seem like either a cop-out or a Deus Ex Machina. Everything I've ever loved about Who was present and correct in this one. It's been a damn good series thus far... but this was the best yet.
 
 
Spaniel
08:29 / 29.05.05
I notice they've put the trailer in front of the credits again. Naughty.

Next week's episode is not exciting me. At all.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
10:58 / 29.05.05
But it's set IN Cardiff... again!

What's not to love?

Re: Jack/Rose/Dr triangle... it's all a bit vague and messy. Each scene is played out as thoug the previous one hasn't happened. Does Rose like the Dr? Does she prefer Jack? When will Jack start liking the Dr? Get ON with it!

Having said all that I do like the triangle, it's entertaining and enhances my enjoyment of the Dr/Rose interaction. I like those two when they're together, the chemistry works well, even though it can feel a tad unsettling. Nice to see it's mostly being instigated by Rose though.

Great episode, loved the conclusion. Just this once, everyone gets to live... does this bode badly for (the cast of) future episodes?
I would like to think so.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:47 / 29.05.05
Best episode yet. Does seem that the non-RTD scripts are the best, especially considering that next week it's the fucking Slitheen again and there's almost no way that won't suck.
 
 
Bed Head
20:38 / 29.05.05
Does seem that the non-RTD scripts are the best, especially considering that next week it's the fucking Slitheen again and there's almost no way that won't suck.

Unless you *like* the RTD scripts, of course. Enough with the fucking hating before you’ve even seen the next episode.

Heartily agree with all the Best Episode Yet/ Ever stuff for The Doctor Dances, but geez, take this opportunity to give your hate cells a rest.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:53 / 29.05.05
Well, seeing as since the World War Three episode I've only disliked one of the stories (two if you count the fact that I wasn't initially keen on Dalek but warmed it to somewhat on repeat watchings) I would have thought I'd given my 'hate cells' more than enough of a rest recently actually.
 
 
Bed Head
22:36 / 29.05.05
Well, it’s RTD scripts all the way from here on in. Could you be persuaded to put some meat on Does seem that the non-RTD scripts are the best, in a way which doesn’t just involve rating the individual episodes according to your own personal numbering system? ie, what’s specifically RTD that you don’t like - no points for simply saying ‘teh slitheen’ again, obviously - and what is everyone else doing that RTD doesn’t? Unpack, unpack, unpack.

I mean, I disagree with quite a lot of what Spats says on this, he and I may never agree on WW3 or on Dalek, but because he’s nailed down his whys, I couldn’t be happier with the difference.

It's a big, sweeping assertion that you just made, Flowers - so give us a why or two. A change is as good as a rest, baby.
 
 
Bed Head
23:07 / 29.05.05
Re: Jack/Rose/Dr triangle... it's all a bit vague and messy. Each scene is played out as thoug the previous one hasn't happened.

hrrrumph. Unless you’re meaning ‘messy’ in a good way, I think I disagree with this, too. Just this one line - honestly, I’m not intentionally picking fights tonight, because I really do agree with the rest of yr post, rawkusboi. But I dug the way that ambiguity pushed this episode along. Enter Jack, and they’re acting like a group that’s only come together, like, an hour earlier. It’s just as it should be - they don’t know who likes who, or who’s best, and they’re working it out on the run. And - oh joy - the reveal constantly depends on both Rose and Jack underestimating the Doctor: All the scans for alien tech, the dancing on an invisible spaceship, the whole sonic blaster/cannon thing... all that gets chipped away as the Doctor slowly turns out to be the most amazingest time traveller of them all - casually mentioning he blows up arms factories and replaces them with banana groves, or that he isn’t concerned about the bomb issue because he’s already dealt with it using ‘psychology’. Or the way he only remembers at the very end that he knows how to dance - his ‘swiss cheese’ mind as it was described pages and pages ago in this thread.

All of which rocks, because he’s so casual with the superiority, yet so upfront with the JOY, with all the ‘everyone lives!’ celebratory stuff. He’s like the dad that could *probably* beat up everyone else’s dad, but who’d still let you and your mates beat him at football. Y’know, again, my main problem with the Dalek episode was that the Doctor wasn’t nearly cool or heroic enough, but he was juuuust wonderful here. And after this and Father’s Day, I think it’s a crying bloody shame that Eccles is leaving in, what, 2 1/2 hours? Too awful. He’s really grown into the role, and the series has grown around him - I think I’d prefer it if they gave *him* every other year off, rather than recasting the part and having a new series every year. It'd be worth waiting for more of this.

Best line this week - Well, “red bicycle when you were 12” is a strong contender, just because I’m already so high when he lets slip the Big Secret that he’s also been Father Christmas the whole time, but “Rose, I’m trying to resonate concrete” wins because I‘m pretty sure I’ll be using it for the rest of my life.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:53 / 30.05.05
I found it "messy" because there wasn't a clear movement from scene to scene regarding the romantic involvement of all concerned.

Forget all the heroics and such like, I'm only talking about Rose dancing with Jack and being swept off her feet by his suaveness then totally hitting on the Doctor.

Apart from the one line "I like him because he's like you" there seems to be no correlation between Rose's respective attraction.
She's not playing one off the other, she's just picking up one boy, playing with it, then discarding it the moment the next guy comes along.
I don't think that works for her character.
 
 
Bed Head
11:01 / 30.05.05
She's not playing one off the other

Hmm. See, I think she *is* probing. Each week seems to bring a new revelation about the Doctor - about his age, about his history: she doesn’t really know too much about him or how much he really knows, so comparing him with Jack is part of her trying to figure out whether he does know what he’s doing, or if she just thinks he knows what he’s doing. She tests Jack, too: gets the story about the space junk out of him, then brings it straight back to the doctor for testing. It’s a pretty natural thing to do with the only two time travellers you’ve ever met, seems to me. And the flirting is a part of that. Besides, what’s wrong with flirting? It's nicer than grilling.

‘He reminds me of you’ is a line she also used about Adam, isn’t it? If you’re not sure of something, you look for something comparable to hold it up against.


And the Doctor’s got an interesting relation with her - when he figures out the nanogenes thing this week, he doesn’t just announce it and save the world, he first uses that knowledge to prompt her into figuring it out instead. In The Long Game, he puts emphasis on the importance of Rose and Adam, and eventually Cathica, working things out for themselves. Rose even gets praised when she’s ‘asking the right questions’. Curiosity is continually encouraged as being A Very Good Thing; and even when he does know more, he doesn’t always let on. It’s a neat dynamic in mechanical terms, but it’s also making him a pretty irresistible character. Compare with the boorish showoff that a hyperclever Time Lord can so easily be (Pertwee, Colin Baker).
 
 
Warewullf
11:48 / 30.05.05
So did I just miss it or were there no "Bad Wolf" references/grafitti in this episode?
 
 
pear
17:34 / 30.05.05
I think the chalk message on the bomb that jack was sitting on was German for bad wolf
 
 
adamswish
22:20 / 30.05.05
favourite line from last Saturday:

"Well shut the door. Your spaceship is about to explode and it will cause a draft."

Oh and I like the hint that next week will be tying in TWO of the previous storylines...
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
08:58 / 31.05.05
Surely that's the Rift over Cardiff and the Tedious Slitheen stories?

-----------Unconfirmed last-episode spoilers
In half-baked theory news, I'm worried about Adam. Very worried indeed. It's been leaked that there are Daleks in the series finale, and I don't think we're going to see the events of the Time War conveniently reversed. Futhermore, the Jagrafess wasn't expected by the Doctor, - his history is "perfect", remember? So we need a source for a new lot of Daleks (and it has been suggested the last episode may be set on Satellite 5), and a reason for the installation of the Jagrafess. A possible reason for the 4th Human Empire (or whatever it was) being unexpectedly held back might be something to do with the Doctor doing something to change the past in his own future. Like leaving Adam in his own time with a type 2 chip in his head.
Adam knows a good deal about the Daleks, could have a grudge against the Doctor, has been shown to be unscrupulous, and has a hole in his head a bit like Davros' third eye thingy. I suspect we may be seeing a sort of Marvel-Ultimisation of old characters like Davros here, starting with Adam. Which may or may not be a good thing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:16 / 31.05.05
I haven't seen 'Dalek' yet, so... had Rose and Adam met prior to that episode?
 
  

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