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The New Doctor Who

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:08 / 03.05.05
I'm sorry, but it feels to me like Spats is desperate for this to have been a great episode and so isn't thinking his defences through properly. And so on...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:55 / 03.05.05
Warning: this post's all over the bloody place.

Bed Head>

I think it comes back to being a problem with the current format, more than anything else. If it were 45 minutes of one-note (and I don't agree that it was one-note at all, but I'll get back to that) within a 2 hour storyline, you'd hardly notice.

Because they've limited themselves to relatively short stories, though, it makes it almost inevitable that they're going to mis out on the levels of light and shade that more time would offer. I didn't even notice that my "two of six" thing could be broken down into a "downbeat vs jolly" thing, but yeah, you're right. The issue for me is that those other four have been pantomime. When he's not putting on the grin in them, Eccleston's simply going into his telephoned-in, cliched Angry Mode, which I find equally difficult to believe. At least in the two non-RTD episodes there's been a bit more depth to his performance.

One-note? I don't agree at all. Certainly not one-note grumpy. He was shit scared here, not miserable. Could the story have done with more variety? For sure, but again, the writere's only been given 45 minutes to get across just how fucking evil the Daleks are, why they're a menace, what role they play in the backstory and why there's never going to be any redemption for them. It's also the only story so far where we've been given any indication that the Doctor's capable of fear for himself. This is the introduction to the big bad that we're presumably going to be faced with in the end-of-series two-parter. Get that across in 45 minutes and still have him do his special grin? That's got to be a near-impossible task.

You didn't find this series' first real display of anger interesting? Dude, that *was* the "moving in unexpected directions."

Again, series structure. It seems that the plan was to have various elements of the character's personality reveal themselves over the course of the series, rather than give us a bit of everything in every single epsiode. Also, this one appeared to play out in real time - have you never spent forty-five minutes in one mood? Even in the most light-hearted of his storylines Baker would sometimes be asked to do that. None of them has always been appealing - bar two of his personalities, the Doctor's always had a healthy sense of self-preservation bordering on cowardice.

In a way this links back to what Whisky and I were saying about the type of humour in the show earlier on. They just don't have a grip on it. We are tending to get one of two things - a stupid Doctor (who is actually stupid) and a not-stupid Doctor. The best of the previous incarnations - Troughton, Baker T. and Davidson - gave us a Doctor who plainly wasn't stupid but would act a bit daft to try and throw his opponents off. Even if they hardly ever fell for it. "He's not as stupid as he looks." Often, though, Eccleston's *is* as stupid as he looks. Somebody on another board made the observation that in the RTD-scripted episodes he's basically just an older, alien version of The Fast Show's Brilliant Kid.

I have absolutely no problem with Doctor Who giving me the funnies. I'm just not finding the current type of funnies funny, so the epsiodes that don't make pained attempts at laffs are much more appealing.

In giving each individual tale such a short amount of time to play out they're limiting themselves to one tone each week. In doing that, they're ensuring that no one episode is ever going to appeal to the entire audience. As such, I think there's a good chance we could have this sort of discussion after each episode.

I mean, 2 out of 6? That could be, like, a mirror of one of the oldest divisions in Dr Who fandom, between fans of Phillip Hinchcliffe-Robert Holmes stuff, and the ones that prefer the Graham Williams-Anthony Read/Douglas Adams stuff, could it not?

Maybe, but I wouldn't call myself a fan of any one type of Who story over any other. As it goes, I've got great love for a lot of the dafter Baker stories - City of Death and that one with the drug smugglers and the crashed interstellar passenger liner - and don't get along particularly well with the more portentous McCoy stuff or the continuity-obsessed Davidson stories. The thing that the writers in a lot of the Tom Baker series were so good at was balancing the two elements. Now we're getting one or the other, but never both together.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:01 / 03.05.05
Flowers> You honestly don't think there's anything a bit odd about your asking why Rose would feel sympathy for the Dalek, or how it could absorb her DNA, or how it broke through the chains holding it, when the week before you'd accepted without question that an alien race which was so much more scientifically advanced than us that it was capable of creating a working spaceship from material on Earth without being detected and could surgically alter a pig so that it was capable of walking on two legs, for some reason was unable to come up with its own weapon to destroy all the life on the planet and so had to pinch some of ours?

That's some highly selective complaining you're engaging in.

Also, you're yet to counter my defences of various aspects of this ep with anything beyond "that's just stupid." Dude, that's *not* rigorous thinking.
 
 
sleazenation
20:28 / 03.05.05
We've seen daleks before. We haven't seen the slitheen. There were a lot of changes to the new dalek from all the ones we have seen in the past. Few of these innovations were explained and this bogged the story down in my opinion.

Things like the dalek's ability to raise the temperature of it's armour are new, but they was a more satisfying and less of a stretch than that armor being sensitive to pain - which would make the the armour pretty crap as armour...

I can buy the use of human DNA to aid in the dalek's reconstruction, but it gets to be more of a stretch that her lack of fear and her history as a time traveller are also important... Has her very DNA been altered by the Tardis? its an idea that needed to be at least mentioned in this episode if it was relevant otherwise it distracts from the thrust of the narrative...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:31 / 03.05.05
The suggestion was that travelling through time had altered her DNA - the Dalek said that it had "used the DNA of a time-traveller to regenerate," or similar. Whether that was down to the TARDIS specifically or it was something that the process of time travel had brought about was never mentioned.

I just went with it being the TARDIS because it fits my Bad Wolf theory (and may not once they get around to expanding on that whole deal) - the ship having some kind of awareness and psychic blah. I think I'm right in saying it always has had that, although again this was something that was hinted at but never stated explicitly. The Zero Room, and all that guff.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:43 / 04.05.05
Actually the TARDIS is alive, sentient and psychic, it was in a TBaker episode (some Leela story)and later in a McCoy one.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:45 / 04.05.05
"Dr Who being dull is a new one on me, though."

Dude, stay away from 50% of Davison's era.

 
 
DaveBCooper
12:45 / 04.05.05
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but tonight on BBC2 (11.20, I think) there’s a programme about Russell T, which may prove of interest to Whovians and others alike.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:32 / 06.05.05
RE: the whole time-traveller DNA regenerating the Dalek - no, that's not adequately explained in the episode. That's not a plot hole as in the slitheen episodes, that's a lapse in internal logic. The new stuff relating to the Dalek - the 'hot armour', swivelling mid section, forcefield, reference to the thing having fallen through a hole in time and survived a crash on Earth with no ship being mentioned, the ability to download vast quantities of information in seconds, the ability to 'heal' the armour - all fine. They fit with what we already know about the Daleks, they're extrapolations of the concept of a race of creatures existing in identical super-high-tech tank-like armour.

You can retcon it all you like, you can come up with as many explanations as you like, it doesn't add up. If it gets explained in a later episode, fair enough. Personally, I don't give a stuff, since I'm happy for the moment with my own little holeplugging explanation* just as Spats is. But just because that's the case doesn't mean the hole isn't there.

*HOLEPLUG: The Daleks are repeatedly referred to as having been destroyed at the climax of a 'time war' with the Time Lords, who were also destroyed. This would indicate that the Daleks had ships or devices capable of time travel, or it wouldn't be much of a time war. Since that's the case, and since the Time Lords are supposed to have copyright on the whole 'time travel' thing, suppose the time war started because a Time Lord betrayed the universe and his own people and gave the Daleks a TARDIS, and suppose they then built their own? This would mean that they'd have their own sentient psychic time/space travel machines composed of infinite space, hence a time war, hence the Daleks being physically affected by travel within a TARDIS-like creation in the same way as the Doctor and Rose are. Rose has already given him grief about the TARDIS messing with her mind to do the Babel fish thing, so they've raised sub rosa tampering as an issue... That all works for me, at least until it gets disproved by some cunt.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:50 / 06.05.05
There's a wossname involving the TARDIS in the old continuity, I think - not only are they alive, but they alter the genetic structures of the Time Lords who use them, so their bodies can withstand the rigours of time travel. It makes sense that something similar would happen to companions.

On the holeplug, there is precedent... the War Chief, who may or may not have been the Master, gave a race TARDIS tech to abduct warriors from different times to fight in their gladiatorial contests.
 
 
sleazenation
13:08 / 06.05.05
Has anyone been playing the LAST DALEK game on the website by the way? once I actually worked out how to open doors i found it great fun...
 
 
gridley
14:42 / 06.05.05
I loved this Dalek episode. I love how most of the episodes are setting up Rose and the Doctor as seperate protagonists.

I was a little hinky at first with the touch of a time traveller business, but the more I think about it the more I like it. The TARDIS is like "the woods" in old folk tales. You don't come up out of it the same person you were when you went in.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:23 / 06.05.05
...yeah, nice thought, grids. Let's be honest - Doctor Who has never been about hard SF concepts. It's always been much more mystical than cerebral. To be honest, it doesn't bother me overmuch - I always loved the idea of the Cloister Room, the (ironically) claustrophobic feeling I got whenever I imagined getting lost in the potentially infinite corridors of the TARDIS...

I actually wrote a story when I was about sixteen about a Time Lord getting lost in his own TARDIS after a slightly wonky regeneration left him with amnesia, cut off from the mind of his ship. After weeks of sleeping rough, starving, with terrifying nightmares plaguing him during the night and hallucinations during the day, he finally went mad. The idea, of course, was that the unnamed Gallifreyan could have been the Doctor, all the way through, until you find out that, of course, it wasn't. Of course. Still, it was rather good, as memory serves. I believe I called it "The King Of Infinite Space", which was rather pretentious and referencey, but still geekily cool, IMRampantlyEgotisticalO.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
16:33 / 06.05.05
Would you post it in the Creation? Sounds good ...
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
21:35 / 06.05.05
Has anyone been playing the LAST DALEK game on the website by the way? once I actually worked out how to open doors i found it great fun...

Yes. It's bloody ace old-school isometric goodness, but I wasted about 2 hours on it the other day and still couldn't beat the last fight with the Doctor, so gave up in disgust. The gearing system and the death ray are ace, though.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:45 / 07.05.05
That the TARDIS has a certain type of intelligence is first made clear in the third DW story Edge of Destruction, the second Doctor says he needs it to regenerate although this is mostly ignored by Third Doctor -> Fourth and most blatantly by Seventh Doctor -> Eighth, although Fourth Doctor -> Fifth suggests that maybe he just needs it in case the regeneration goes wrong, so that he can use the Zero Room to sort himself out.

The TARDIS has a telepathic link with it's inhabitants so they can instantly learn the language of whichever planet they visit. There was Mawdwyn Undead where Tegan and Nyssa get infected with some disease which means that when the Doctor travels in time they get older or younger depending on which way he's going, but that's a disease they get, not something counteracting something the TARDIS does, else in the very first episode the Doctor could have just started travelling and aged/youthed Barbara and Ian out of existence, and done the same to kill of the Cybermen when they invade the TARDIS.

I've accepted the arguments everyone has made for every other part of that episode so I don't think I'm exactly refusing to bend under the force of Spatula's logic or anything. As Jack says, you have to roll with Doctor Who's stories sometimes, Ghost Light practically collapses as a TV story unless you got to see the unofficial 'extended cut' going around, and did they explain exactly why they buried that robot in the desert in Greatest Show in the Galaxy, or why exactly Mags agreed to hang out with that insufferable explorer?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:49 / 07.05.05
I imagine the plot hole discussion is only going to intensify after the Doc leaves Hapless Boy Companion back in the present with his brain-chip intact, after going on at him for trying to smuggle futuristic knowledge about technology back to the present day, and just before lecturing Rose about the dangers of changing events (isn't going around stopping people who would otherwise have died from dying pretty much what the Doc does every episode, eh?). Personally, I'm pretty happy to accept the explanation that the Doctor is just a bit of a prick, really, doesn't like the guy and certainly doesn't want anyone added to the nice little two's company arrangement he has with Rose.

Good episode - again, I'm quite happy to have the political comment be rammed home fairly hard ('the media manipulates people by manipulating information' may be familiar, but I'm more pleased to see 'tight border controls are a bad thing' getting an airing). Pegg was brilliant - I particularly liked the way he had his own little gleeful one-word catchphrase for when shit starts going down - "fascinating!", to match the Doctor's "fantastic!" Of course the Doctor is a bit of an Editor himself, interfering in human history all the time, cutting and pasting and splicing and adding and deleting... though this Doctor seems more in denial about that than the others - I can't tell if that's because Davies genuinely does think of him as an observer/traveller/tourist rather than a man with a mission, or whether it's a characteristic that will later be undercut by events. Part of me was hoping that the Editor would sneak off and survive to become a new recurring villain, but I didn't really expect that, and it was satisfying to see Suki Macrae Cantrell (last of the Freedom 15 from the Freedom Foundation - awesome!) get her revenge.

I know a fair few people who probably experienced various unusual side effects at the thought of Tamsin Greig sticking cybernetic implants in their brain.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
20:03 / 07.05.05
Part of me was hoping that the Editor would sneak off and survive to become a new recurring villain...

Show me the body.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:38 / 07.05.05
That was much better than the previous RTD eps, imo. And this is part of the reason:

again, I'm quite happy to have the political comment be rammed home fairly hard ('the media manipulates people by manipulating information' may be familiar, but I'm more pleased to see 'tight border controls are a bad thing' getting an airing).

This time around none of that stuck out like a sore thumb, because it was taking place in surroundings that weren't London circa 2005/2006. No referencing of actual real-life events in the middle of a recognisably real-life setting this time around, so much less jarring than previously. No lazy "massive weapons of destruction" rubbish (which felt like I was having my intelligence insulted, tbh - "I'd better put it in, just in case people don't get what it is I'm saying").

Instead of specific events, a much broader view taken and a far more successful episode as a result. It means it's much less likely to age as badly as the Slitheen story probably will, too.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:42 / 07.05.05
Oh little Pegg, why did I doubt you? Hold me.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:11 / 08.05.05
I will only say that I think this episode showed the drawbacks of the one episode/45 minute format, it would have been dull over two episodes certainly, but would have been quite nice as two thirty minute episodes in the old style, with the unimpressive monster as the big reveal for the climax of episode one.

Yes, leaving the boy with that technology was extremely odd, I would have presumed that the Doctor would have reprogrammed it to activate at the sound of 'Land of Hope and Glory' or something, this kid can't really leave the house now, which seems rather harsh. In fact, I don't see why they had to bring him, why they couldn't have dropped him home between last week's episode and this, he doesn't really do anything except take up time. Without him in it pretty much everything goes on as it did so, it's just the Editor doesn't find out who the Doctor is and that doesn't alter what everyone else did to win the day.

The story might have worked better if filmed from the perspective of Cathica. The space station felt too samey to episode two for me, Doctor fidling with panels and heat being a major issue. But Simon Pegg as the Editor was great, and watching 'DWC' afterwards I feel sorry for him having to pronounce the name of the villain.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:12 / 08.05.05
But I have yet to watch it again, who knows, maybe I'll change my mind again.
 
 
gridley
22:59 / 08.05.05
I imagine the plot hole discussion is only going to intensify after the Doc leaves Hapless Boy Companion back in the present with his brain-chip intact, after going on at him for trying to smuggle futuristic knowledge about technology back to the present day, and just before lecturing Rose about the dangers of changing events (isn't going around stopping people who would otherwise have died from dying pretty much what the Doc does every episode, eh?).

I'm willing to bet Hapless Boy Companion will be back later on as a bad guy. I mean this is a guy who used to work at place where they reverse-engineered alien technology AND he's demonstrated a desire to bring future technology back to the present AND the Doctor dropped him off with this awesome technology in his head primarilly because he didn't like him sniffing around Rose.

I suspect they'll later go to somewhere in the early-mid 20th century and find this guy either ruling the world or selling it out to aliens invaders.

Oh, and Simon Pegg was great.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
23:50 / 08.05.05
V glad to see the love for this ep over here as another board I go to is terribly upset with the series.

All I've seen so far are episodes 1 and 7 and I'm very happy. The energy, inventiveness and humor of the programme is still in this version. I'm not terribly sure what the problem is with some people and this series but there it is.

Being in the states it was refreshing to see a story about the world run by the media which is run by a blind monster.

... no US station has picked it up, right??

big surprise there.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:28 / 09.05.05
Show me the body.

No. Not until you apologise for what you said about our Jason. And you're not having any pocket money, neither.
 
 
sleazenation
13:12 / 09.05.05
Was it me or did the pan up to the monster sequence seem like a overt reference to Spaced...
 
 
Not in the Face
14:56 / 09.05.05
Personally I find it hard to watch anything with Simon Pegg in it and not think of it as having references to Spaced - but I think that's because Spaced was very good at using all those visual methods for comic effect.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
23:26 / 09.05.05
I am SO bleeding gutted I was out and missed this week's ep on both Saturday AND Sunday.

Someone's going to buy the DVD and invite me round, right?

... right ... ?
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
05:58 / 10.05.05

... no US station has picked it up, right??


No... apparently the Yanks want to rename the series, completely oblivious to the Dr Who history, to something like Rose and the Mysterious Stranger. Basically they like Rose, not the Dr.

When Adam was dropped off at the end of the episode I was waiting (and fully expecting) the Doctor to mention that Adam had abused the power that he'd been given, therefore he wasn't responsible enough to become a companion for more than one episode.

Rose hasn't tried to use information from the past or future to her advantage (yet, see next weeks epsiode) so she's worthy of remaining the Doctor's companion but Adam isn't. Add to that the sexual chemistry between Rose and the Doctor, which should be fully realised next series form what I gather, can't have a rival for Rose's affections riding round in the Tracis with them.

It was a good example of the temptation to use time travel for one's own benefit. I'd be very disappointed if they didn't follow this up in some way. Adam did bad, for sure, but the Doctor did worse by just dropping him off in the present (er... future... just) and pretending that will fix any problems.
 
 
■
07:49 / 10.05.05
Was it me or did the pan up to the monster sequence seem like a overt reference to Spaced...

Oh, yeah. [off topic]Mind you, you should see the BBC's new sitcom with Martin Freeman. Edgar Wright is probably very chuffed or fuming that they've stolen so much of his direction.[/ot]
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:31 / 10.05.05
apparently the Yanks want to rename the series, completely oblivious to the Dr Who history, to something like Rose and the Mysterious Stranger

That's hilarious. And would make absolutely no sense if they, as tradition dictates, change companions. "Someone Else and A DIFFERENT Mysterious Stranger"?
 
 
sleazenation
10:13 / 10.05.05
No, it works - we call the doctor 'Bob' and hey presto we already have a prequal series with Rose in the title and it's written by Russel T Davis! How perfect is that?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:44 / 10.05.05
rawkusboi apparently the Yanks want to rename the series, completely oblivious to the Dr Who history, to something like Rose and the Mysterious Stranger.

Awww, and there was me thinking American TV was full of repeats of Monty Python and Dr Who...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:25 / 10.05.05
I'm interested to see if people thought that Adam kid was either a) crap actor who KEPT PRONOUNCING T's or if b) that was supposed to be part of his "Geek" character. I found it hard to judge.
 
 
sleazenation
13:58 / 10.05.05
is pronouncing T's the sign of a crap actor? (or a crap acor?)
 
  

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