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V For Vendetta (PICS)

 
  

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Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:59 / 19.03.06
Because Benny Hill is supposedly popular and still on telly in America and so presumably they thought it would highlight that this was a parody.
 
 
ghadis
20:01 / 19.03.06
3. The so called oppressive state didn't really seem all that bad

What, apart from all the non-white, non-hetrosexual and non-christian people being rounded up and killed?
 
 
Benny the Ball
20:06 / 19.03.06
that wasn't the oppresive state, the oppresive state was after that event, that was the move to the oppresive state, that was the shift in politic that allowed the oppresive state to come about.
 
 
ghadis
20:17 / 19.03.06
Ah yes, i see what you mean now, should have paid more attention. Apolgies
 
 
CameronStewart
00:49 / 20.03.06
Well, I've just come from seeing it and I am pleased to report that Natalie Portman did not seem too short, nor was Hugo Weaving too Australian.

Unfortunately those are among the few positive things I have to say about the film. When Star Wars Episode III came out it was often said in reviews that it was much better than the previous 2 films - which only meant that it was still a shit film, but that it was better in comparison. I feel the same way about V For Vendetta and all the talk of it being "the most faithful Alan Moore adaptation" - sure, it's more superficially close to the comic than LXG or Constantine, it's set in the right country and the characters look the way they're supposed to, but I still think it's a dreadful, dimwitted adaptation.

The one and only scene in the film that remains faithful to the book - Evey's torture and imprisonment, and the reading of the Valerie Page letter - is the only scene that has any real emotional content. The letter, which was almost verbatim from the book and excellently realized, actually made my eyes well up with tears, but later served as a frustrating tease of the film that might have been had the Wachowskis actually bothered adapting the story instead of rewriting it entirely.

The film contains so many scenes that are similar to scenes in the book, but rewritten to be more bland and pedestrian - V's pirate broadcast being only one example. There's also maddening inconsistencies or omissions - one that particularly drove me nuts is that we never learn how V escaped from Larkhill. In Dr Surridge's journal flashback we see the camp, the experimentation...and then suddenly and with no explanation - even when the scene is revisited later - it explodes. No reason is given for the explosion, certainly not because V engineered it by cooking up napalm and explosives in his cell.

V falls in love with Evey ("You've made me feel something I never thought I'd feel again blah blah blah"), despite having no discernable reason for doing so. Evey dresses up like the little girl and goes to see Bishop Lilliman, but only so she can WARN HIM that V is coming to kill him.

I guess to be a bit more positive I will say that I actually thought updating Prothero to be a Bill O'Reilly-style, propaganda-spouting tv pundit worked rather well, and the falling-domino montage was expertly edited and the only other spot in the film where I experienced any kind of excitement.

Sigh.
 
 
--
02:31 / 20.03.06
I'm going to go see it on Thursday. Looking foward to it. A Co-worker/friend of mine saw it recently and he really liked it, though he said there was only one thing he really didn't like about it. And it's gotten pretty good reviews over here in the states.

Adaptation is a tricky thing. On one hand, you want to be true to the source material, on the other hand, you also have to personalize it to some degree. Personally, I think a film that copies it's source exactly is horribly dull. I loved Mary Harron's feminist take on "American Psycho", and Cronenberg's version of "Naked Lunch". Who wants to see/read the same thing twice anyway?

A lot of people have insulted the "march of the V" thing, and I haven't seen the film yet so I can't really comment, but I think it's just trying to show the audience that anyone can be V. Heavy-handed, yes, but keep in mind, I don't know about the rest of the world, but look at America. We voted Bush in twice, so we're not the brightest bulbs in the box. Actually, I just read it was number 1 in the US box office, taking in about $26 million. Hey, look at it this way, maybe people who like the film will buy the comic. We've been seeling a lot of it over the last few days at the bookstore I work at.

Did they keep in V quoting Aleister Crowley?
 
 
CameronStewart
03:36 / 20.03.06
>>>On one hand, you want to be true to the source material, on the other hand, you also have to personalize it to some degree.<<<

Well I don't necessarily agree that you HAVE to personalize it, although you do cite good examples. I think you can edit, condense, revise, but I think that the important thing is to remain faithful to the spirit, leave the broad strokes intact, otherwise what's the point? In the case of V For Vendetta I don't believe the Wachowskis have remained faithful to the story except on the most superficial level. It reminds me of From Hell, which I maintain was adapted by people who didn't even understand the source material.

And the Aleister Crowley quote wasn't there. None of the best lines are.
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:14 / 20.03.06
>>>But IMO, the movie makes it fairly clear that V is gay.

How so?>>>

His sense of style & drama, his voice, his flamboyance, his wit, his precision & care with his appearance, the way he cooks, the way he lives, the way in which he speaks, the music that he likes. His devotion to Valerie the actress (although this also has non-"gay" motivation). I think he **was** gay and has moved beyond sexuality. I felt that the scenes with Fry's character were a deliberate parallel with the some of the Shadow gallery scenes.

When V says he feels love, I think he means in a non-sexual manner: freind-brother-sister-mother-father, etc. I think he may say as much in the movie.

My V is certainly a gay man and is all the more beautiful, mighty and tragic for it. Your opinion may differ.
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:15 / 20.03.06
>>>When V says he feels love, I think he means in a non-sexual manner: freind-brother-sister-mother-father, etc. I think he may say as much in the movie.<<<

OK, Evey says this.
 
 
CameronStewart
04:21 / 20.03.06
>>>When V says he feels love, I think he means in a non-sexual manner: freind-brother-sister-mother-father, etc.<<<

I think this is how it is intended in the book, but in the film V's reaction to Evey deserting him - punching the mirror melodramatically and sobbing - and his dying words to Evey about how she stirred feelings of love in him that he'd long since forgotten, are definitely intended to suggest that he is in hetero love with her. Further, with his hideous scarring they've clearly gone for a Phantom of the Opera/Beauty and the Beast story there, which really rubbed me the wrong way as it seemed like a nonsensical concession to the audience. What about Evey inspired that kind of love in him? She's gorgeous, sure, but beyond that her character didn't really make much of an impression, and she even tried to sell him out to Lilliman.

But I guess every story needs romance...
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
06:24 / 20.03.06
>>>But IMO, the movie makes it fairly clear that V is gay.

How so?>>>

His sense of style & drama, his voice, his flamboyance, his wit, his precision & care with his appearance, the way he cooks, the way he lives, the way in which he speaks, the music that he likes.


Quoted without comment.
No wait: Comment: This is the twenty-first bloody century, gay people can not be mincing nancies and straight people can take care of their appearence, cook, be dramatic and like V's music (you've got one right here telling you to look long and hard at your attitudes towards homosexuals)

As for the film: I'm with Cam', Alan Moore and Reality on this one, it was a terrible pile of wank in which the scenes faithful to the book only underscored how badly written and executed the whole sorry mess was. Think of the Valerie scene as a piece of corn: on a cob with other pieces of corn it's lovely, in a piece of shit it's not.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:07 / 20.03.06
furioso >>>But IMO, the movie makes it fairly clear that V is gay.

How so?>>>


His sense of style & drama, his voice, his flamboyance, his wit, his precision & care with his appearance, the way he cooks, the way he lives, the way in which he speaks, the music that he likes.


I cock your begging pardon? What the fuck are you blathering about? Do you know what you're talking about? You've just stated the Conservative/Right-Wing position on how 'a gay is easy to spot', you just missed out 'he had an English accent' if you were planning on deploying the stereotypes, oh, and he chose those drapes and soft furnishings himself of course. Would you like to add that the Valerie scene was bad because at no point was she wearing dungerees or getting her hair cut short?

His devotion to Valerie the actress (although this also has non-"gay" motivation).

What, would 'gay' motivation be 'bad'? What is 'gay' motivation anyway?

I think he **was** gay and has moved beyond sexuality.

You're really not seeing a contradiction there?

I felt that the scenes with Fry's character were a deliberate parallel with the some of the Shadow gallery scenes.

Well yes, but what that has to do with anything else you've written is beyond me.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
07:40 / 20.03.06
Say, not to jump into the crossfire over V's sexuality (there's a question about it? WTF? Being dapper does not equal gay). But, did anyone recognize the credit songs? They're not on the soundtrack, and I really want to listen to the second one in full sometime. Sounded a bit like "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." I got the first song - Rolling Stones. Street Fighting Man, if my memory's working. The second, though, I've never heard before.

Oh, and cusm - "A revolution without dancing is not a revolution worth having" - oh yeah. I wanted to raise a mug of ale and shout "STRONG TRUTH," but I feared the other theatre-goers would mob me.

By the by, if you can see this movie at an Imax theatre, do. I have never heard dominoes fall so loudly.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:34 / 20.03.06
Cameron Stewart V falls in love with Evey ("You've made me feel something I never thought I'd feel again blah blah blah"), despite having no discernable reason for doing so. Evey dresses up like the little girl and goes to see Bishop Lilliman, but only so she can WARN HIM that V is coming to kill him.

I got the idea that she is going along with V with misgivings, then at the last minute bottles out and realises she can't go along with it.

Benny The so called oppressive state didn't really seem all that bad

Ghadis What, apart from all the non-white, non-hetrosexual and non-christian people being rounded up and killed?

Benny the Ball that wasn't the oppresive state, the oppresive state was after that event, that was the move to the oppresive state, that was the shift in politic that allowed the oppresive state to come about.

Except that, from what Dietrich said, religion (or at least non-Christian) or non-heterosexuality was still outlawed. But otherwise I'd agree with Benny, there was no real sense that people's freedoms were restricted, the two families seemed to be just regular middle-class families as could exist today.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:15 / 20.03.06
His devotion to Valerie the actress (although this also has non-"gay" motivation).

As opposed to a sense of style and drama, one's voice, flamboyance, wit, precision and care with one's appearance, a certain way of cooking, and a certain taste in music, all of which can only have teh gay motivation!
 
 
Blake Head
10:16 / 20.03.06
Not a Real Lady of the Flowers:

I have to say this again. The source graphic novel was also less subtle than a bag of hammers.


Why would that be a defence of the film?

Benny the Ball:

What I liked;
1. I genuinely liked knife time - trails and all. It gave an impression that was lacking before, of exactly how dangerous V was, how much faster, stronger and lethal he was than all of those men.


Y’see, I actually quite liked the effect as well, but in the context it was in it just seemed to play to Mutant V’s extraordinary nature and the lack of threat from his opponents (not to mention dramatic tension), and by the point where we were supposed to sit back and revel at his badass knife-wielding shtick I’d switched off. A lot of the time it felt like statements about how ideas being bullet-proof, rather than being thematically meaningful, simply gave coverage to someone’s bright idea that “wouldn’t it be cool to have V stand there like a plank getting shot to show how hard/indomitable he is”.

I would have preferred to see something like what you mention about V acting in darkness/silence, which could have been handled interestingly both in terms of cinematography and differentiating V from those around him in a less gratuitous way; similar to what they at least attempted to do in Batman Begins. The overall impression I came away with was of a “superhero” film, a bad one, and from there it’s a struggle to know where one’s disappointment with V for Vendetta should even begin. One of the biggest problems I had was not being able to take V seriously as either threatening or even truly driven. I would be all for a film that explored the problems inherent in a revolution reliant upon the violent actions of a psychotic, grandstanding/theatrical individual, but the veering between a figure we’re supposed to find lethal, committed and intensely serious and that of a crazy poseur in an apron, stretched credibility too far. It’s not that there isn’t a degree of self-reflexive humour in the piece, it just badly misjudged the level of absurdity it was attempting to balance.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:47 / 20.03.06
Why would that be a defence of the film?

It's a defense against accusing the film of a lack of subtlety.
 
 
Blake Head
12:31 / 20.03.06
No, my point was that, in my opinion, for the reasons above, I thought the film was not subtle in its presentation of its main themes, and indeed in other aspects. As I said, also above, I was less interested in the source material (whether it was faithful or not and the like) than the film as a work in its own right. If the comic was unsubtle (I haven't read it in a while so I don't want to comment in detail, but I don't remember it as being jarringly so) then the obligation was surely on the makers of the film to present those themes more convincingly in their re-imagining of the material. And I pretty much agree with Cam that the majority of the changes made were to the detriment of the original work, and that they were generally either misguided or served to make a mess of any original nuance, but the main point would be that I found the film, as a film, crude to the point of being, ahem, “boak-inducing”. But that was just my reading of it. Ok?
 
 
ibis the being
15:12 / 20.03.06
I saw this movie this past weekend... haven't read the comic book but I was excited to see it because it sounded like it might be great. I was disappointed. As I say I wasn't comparing it to anything, but as a stand-alone film it seemed weirdly stripped (or at least devoid) of context. Whether or not this is what actually happened, it seemed that much of the meaning of the story was gutted when the writers attempted to remove the specificies of the original book to make it more relevant or universal. I did get the impression that, as Boboss put it, the original was bound up in Britishness, but the film attempted to straddle universality and Britishness (with one foot on Britishness mainly because you couldn't eliminate it without elimating V's mask) and failed.

I had a hard time buying the idea that all that the Chancellor set into motion with the virus and experimentation (much of which is still a little unclear to me) was for the singular purpose of winning an election. There had to be more to it. What was the ideology behind it? And who espoused that ideology besides the one man? I caught allusions to religious orthodoxy but they were vague. Obviously the anti-gay agenda was part of it, but to what end, why, how? And I got that he appealed to the people's sense of fear, but what did he promise... an antidote to a virus? There had to be something more to it, something more complex, or else it all seems somewhat random and meaningless. I felt that the W Bros expected the audience to do the leg work of applying modern day American context to the outline of the story, but that tactic (besides being lazy) backfired, since the film's superficiality was only highlighted by complexity of the situation we're presently in.

In the same way, I agree with Benny that we were not shown nor given any feeling for oppression in the film's England. We know that there was some cultural "cleansing" and removal of high art... but, sad though it is to say, it's not readily believable that the average citizen would find this personally upsetting enough to take to the streets and cheer on a Parliament-exploding rebel, as long as they still had their homes, food, families, jobs, and television. I needed more. I couldn't get excited about the film's climax, there was so little support for it in the story. For that matter, I also didn't believe in Evey's transformation. Why and how did she go from her revulsion to love for V? It just happened during the time she was away, we're supposed to think? I didn't get it, I didn't buy it.

The prison/Valerie section was the only good, the only moving part of the film, as so many before me have said.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:36 / 20.03.06
Best review ever.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
20:18 / 20.03.06
That review is fantastic. Such a breath of fresh air.

I love how the guy states that "We are now suffering the consequences of this quiet political correctness invasion" - in the form of a movie that he says supports and glorifies terrorism. PC = Terror? It all makes sense, now.

Also, anytime someone mentions the Koran by refering to it as the Bible of Islam, with the word Bible in lil quotey marks - that person has written the best review ever, even if the rest has nothing to do with that.
 
 
Digital Hermes
20:50 / 20.03.06
For all the negative elements of the film, it's deviations and unsubtlely, this review actually makes me like it a bit more...
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:51 / 20.03.06
Reviews like that are why I'm so gonna see this movie, as soon as it open in my country.

Despite the fact I know I'll hate every change made to the original source, it still gonna be good because it will give the chance to introduce this wonderful piece of literature to those who do not read comics, and thus missed it completely (aka. my family).

can't wait
 
 
All Acting Regiment
23:18 / 20.03.06
I've seen this, and while I echo a lot of what's been said before I think the references to Islam throughout were timely. The evil ethnic villain in Storm Saxon is an Arabic stereotype now, at the start the leader rants about Muslims in a list of undesirables, and Steven Fry's got an outlawed 14th century Koran of which he says that you don't need to be a Muslim to admire the beauty or poetry of it.

I think these are all good details, especially in the UK- these parts might well be the most useful in chipping away at certain opinions.
 
 
Seth
00:19 / 21.03.06
It's an interesting trade-off, isn't it? On the one hand it fumbles the ball really badly as an adaptation in places. On the other it throws some really interesting new elements into the mix, namely the loneliness/humanising of V and the topicality of some of the Islamic references.

The worst stuff is all in the first five minutes for me. The set-up with V spouting his alliterative monologue was beyond awful and into the realm of utter inexplicable idiocy. But then you have the bizarre V in an apron and the Benny Hill silliness that I thought worked in a totally unexpected way.

Plus the Valerie sequence was worth the price of the cinema ticket alone.

Hmmmm...
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
00:36 / 21.03.06
I really do love the part in that review that talks about Margaret Thatcher as "one of the greatest political leaders of the 20th century".

That's about on par with my favourite Richard Nixon quote: "I would have made a good Pope."
 
 
--
02:19 / 21.03.06
Or the false sterotype about homosexuals being "persecuted and nice people".
 
 
---
03:48 / 21.03.06
I went to see this yesterday, and I really loved it.

Ok, I've never read the comic book, (something I regretted and still do.) thought that in a few places the film was pretty slow, but wow, by the end I thought that it was amazing.

I know that Alan was unhappy with it after scanning through this, and that for those of you who have read the comic book there must have been a ton of stuff that's been changed, omitted, things that make you pissed off, want to scream, etc, and yeah, I get that, but once the end had arrived, I think that the film had it's own spirit. That it had turned into it's own thing.

It felt like it stood out on it's own, that it had been written by a genius, put on the screen and changed around in however many all too numerous ways, seeing as you just cannot fully translate a comic book onto the big screen, and then born as something shocking, new, poetic, mythic, and euphoric.

I saw that someone said further back here about the dominoes scene remaining intact. Well I have to say thank the universe that it did, because when that was mixed in with the marching people in the masks, it ended up being the bit I loved the most. There's just something about the way that whole scene turned out that made it one of the best things I've seen in a long time.

It was like.......and I can write for ages here, but I'll spare you........you have this government.......these brutal, fascist, controlling, crazy people, that have got together, and have opressed, tortured, controlled, used, maimed, raped, and killed these people over and over again, but once it gets to the point where you have soldiers pointing guns at their faces and they're walking towards them, and it looks like the whole thing is about to turn into a bloodbath, the guns go down, and they just walk past them. They're not bothered about hitting out at, attacking and killing these people that are enforcing this mess, they're not bothered about starting a war on the streets and killing them out of revenge, they walk past them and don't lay a finger on any of them because they are here to see V's idea, his vision. That's why they've arrived.

The old vision get's blown to bits and they stand there and watch a fire, a light of hope, and when that whole scene took place I completely loved it.

It wasn't V for Vendetta the comic, probably in so many ways that's it's beyond count, but it emerged as it's own V for Vendetta, and despite the way it had probably been made into something that didn't really touch the comics, I think that it still mananged to stand up on it's own, and it worked.

Yes, I'm the type of person that gets over enthusiastic about things, and yes, I'm a jerk at times, but I feel that after seeing something that had such an effect on me with it's presence, the least I could do was write here about how brilliant I thought it was. I hope that Alan can...........and it must be tremendously fucking hard to do this when he's written the thing and seen it changed so much........at somepoint, see through the crap that he feels he's had thrown all over his work and realize that something amazing had the chance to shine through, and that in some places, it truly has done for some of us.
 
 
CameronStewart
03:56 / 21.03.06
>>>I saw that someone said further back here about the dominoes scene remaining intact. Well I have to say thank the universe that it did, because when that was mixed in with the marching people in the masks, it ended up being the bit I loved the most. There's just something about the way that whole scene turned out that made it one of the best things I've seen in a long time.<<<

Yeah, I did like that bit - from Finch talking about his feeling that everything was connected to the last domino falling, the editing, music, and imagery all came together beautifully and it was for me one of the (disappointingly few) places in the film where I felt a real charge of electricity .

Glad you enjoyed the film, I wish the rest of it had as much impact for me as that part.
 
 
Spaniel
06:13 / 21.03.06
Cam, Ibis and Benny have summed it up for me. The film was full of niggling little changes and non-sequiters (as a result of the source material being horrifically condensed) and really did seem to lack context. A few extras sitting in a living room and a bucket load of hamfisted exposition do not a sense of an oppressed Britain make. In fact the movie felt small, parochial and set-bound, and failed utterly to connect with the (almost) social realist vision of Moore and Lloyd that gave the comic such a powerful sense of place and purpose.
I thought the action sequences were stupidly overwrought and drew far too much attention to themselves *as spectacle* and as such never failed to drag me out of the movie, and were yet another example of Hollywood's endemic failure of imagination. I refuse to believe that V needed to be given the Matrix treatment to be exciting.
I should also add that I hated the deeply pedestrian blockbuster score.

So, what did I think of it? In a word: shit.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:49 / 21.03.06
However, I was there and what she actually said was "If I can't dance, I don't want your Dance Dance Revolution".

You are mistaken. I was actually dancing with her at the time, and I assure you that what she actually said was: "If I can't dance, it's not my sexy party. It's not my orgy."
 
 
penitentvandal
08:58 / 21.03.06
England's Parliament building, one of Western Civilization's most enduring symbols of democracy and republican government with a small "r."

That's 'republican' in the sense of 'actually being a monarchy' there, folks.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:55 / 21.03.06
Does anyone actually know if Goldman could dance? I mean, if she had two left feet (non-ideologically speaking) it puts a whole different slant on the quote.
 
 
Spaniel
12:00 / 21.03.06
Oh, and I am keen to stress that I disliked it as both a standalone pop culture artifact and adaptation.
 
 
Spaniel
12:39 / 21.03.06
Alchy, why regret not reading the comic when you can go and pick it up from yer local real live library or comic shop?
 
  

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