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V For Vendetta (PICS)

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20:26 / 06.03.06

Re-reading the graphic novel recently (hadn't read it since Vertigo first reprinted it, in individual issues, in the 80s), I was struck by how you see certain themes & motifs that would show up later in Moore's work percolating in the narrative... the 'guy watching hundreds of TVs tuned to many channels and cameras to monitor society's trends' that we see in V's Shadow Gallery and later, with Ozymandias in Watchmen; the interplay of caption text with the action shown in the panel; the fascination with Crowley and 'do what thou wilt' and the mention of a character reading a book on coincidence/synchronicity. I think at the time he wrote this, Moore hadn't gotten into magick and was probably just dipping his toe in the water of some of these topics. (if memory serves, he really got into magick during the writing of FROM HELL)

Too bad that "England Prevails" won't be the motto used in the movie...I thought "Freedom (!) Forever!" sounded a bit odd at first.

22:27 / 06.03.06

>>>Can anybody confirm the amount of religious aspect retained in the translation to film?<<<

In the comic Norsefire was undoubtedly a religious party - the logo on the propaganda posters was a winged cross. In the film the party logo is sort of a crucifix with two crossbars, probably to avoid using an actual cross and inviting direct comparison to "real" Christianity.

I noticed that the propaganda posters in the comic say "Strength Through Purity, Purity Through Faith" but in the film they read "Strength Through Unity, Unity Through Faith." Small change but does alter the meaning somewhat.

Harold Washington died for you

05:33 / 07.03.06

Some family values lobby in the US is gonna see the "anti-Christian" motifs and put it on a List. It's gonna happen.

09:22 / 07.03.06

I appreciate that for some on this board 'Uncut' magazine might be aptly relaunched as 'Satan's Cock Monthly'

Now, look, as an avid, longtime subscriber to Satan's Cock Monthly, I am afraid I cannot allow this wilful, underhanded and, frankly, slanderous attempt to compare the Illustrious Organ to a sickening rag like Uncut. You, sir, shall be hearing from my lloigor.

09:59 / 07.03.06

Some family values lobby in the US is gonna see the "anti-Christian" motifs and put it on a List. It's gonna happen.

Some family values lobby in the US also objected to The Chronicles of Narnia.

You cannot and should not pander to fools.

10:04 / 07.03.06

One thing I would like to see, but probably never will would be a B&W vesion of V for Vendetta. This was the way it was when originally serialized in Warrior. The colour version most people are familiar with is kind of like a 4-colour version of Sin City... I'd like more people to have a chance to see just how tight and beautiful David Lloyd's B&W work actually is...

lonely as a cloud...

10:14 / 07.03.06

Some family values lobby in the US is gonna see the "anti-Christian" motifs and put it on a List. It's gonna happen.

You cannot and should not pander to fools.

sleaze - exactly. V isn't supposed to be a "family" film (unless the Wachowski's *seriously* fucked with the source material), and people who would worry about the film being on the list aren't the target audience, anyway. In fact, the film being on some moral majority shit-list could possibly expand its audience somewhat.

10:26 / 07.03.06

I always read the transub/no-transubstantiation scene as being one of veracity, and not indicative of whether christianity in all or any form(s) was valid. Bad Christian, no flesh of Christ for you.

I see what you mean, but V did actively poison the wafer. And was "testing" god, being all ironic and that. Fair enough this is before Moores conversion to being supreme Wiccan Cuthuthu lord of metafiction, and in that 80s era of his work theres lots of strains of very structured materialist thinking. Which IMO would be hostile to "organised" religion.

In the comic Norsefire was undoubtedly a religious party - the logo on the propaganda posters was a winged cross. In the film the party logo is sort of a crucifix with two crossbars, probably to avoid using an actual cross and inviting direct comparison to "real" Christianity.

To suggest that the church would be an integral part of a facist government is anti-christian. As I recall (I may be wrong)there doesnt appear to be any examples of "good" christianity in VFV to offset this.

11:44 / 07.03.06

To suggest that the church would be an integral part of a facist government is anti-christian. As I recall (I may be wrong)there doesnt appear to be any examples of "good" christianity in VFV to offset this.

Should there be? Both philospohically in general and in V Foe Vendetta in particular, which, let us remember, takes place in a post-apocalyptic world after a large number of purges, both political and otherwise. Any priests not willing to endorse Norsefire policy would have been the first against the wall...

lonely as a cloud...

12:32 / 07.03.06

Similarly, there are no examples of good fascist government in V, either. Talk about one-sided! I, for one, shall be boycotting this film!

12:36 / 07.03.06

Should there be? Both philospohically in general and in V Foe Vendetta in particular, which, let us remember, takes place in a post-apocalyptic world after a large number of purges, both political and otherwise. Any priests not willing to endorse Norsefire policy would have been the first against the wall...

Or would have gone underground, as in Soviet Russia. If were extrapapolating from the text. VFV is damb good stuff because its dialogical: state v.s. individual, good police man working for bad v.s. bad terrorist working for good. Gangster chap that looks after Evey v.s. Scotish gangster (pretty much every important character has a counterpoint) etc. But there isnt any counterpoint to the portrayal of the Archbishop. So its unbalenced in that respect.

13:21 / 07.03.06

I disagree both that V for Vendetta is 'unbalenced' nor that it is in any way desirable for fiction to necessarily strive to be 'balenced'.

A sympathetic priest character would be entirely superfluous to the central plot and its recurring themes of the individual and isolation. What place a 'nice' preist in 1984?

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:27 / 07.03.06

To suggest that the church would be an integral part of a facist government is anti-christian.

You probably don't want to delve too deeply into the history of 20th-century Italy, dude.

Incidentally, the wafer incident is embarrassing primarily because it is toss - Catholic doctrine would state that a poisoned wafer would, if eaten, end in death. This is in part because it would not be taken in an act of holy communion. Even if it were given in an act of holy communion (that is, it had been slipped into a pile of wafers being given out innocently by a priest), it would still be fatal, because the wafer does not magically transform itself into a gobbet of flesh - rather, it becomes the body of Christ while still being in scientific terms a wafer (which may therefore be poisoned). That's the mystery of transubstantiaton.

15:18 / 07.03.06

I disagree both that V for Vendetta is 'unbalenced' nor that it is in any way desirable for fiction to necessarily strive to be 'balenced'.

A sympathetic priest character would be entirely superfluous to the central plot and its recurring themes of the individual and isolation. What place a 'nice' preist in 1984?

My point was that there is a conversation between the characters and their counterpoints (in the mind of the reader) resulting in conclusions.

Im not saying there has to be a "nice" priest just that the Arch goth-ring wearing lord of imaginespace didnt feel it neccesary to show another side to christianity that wasnt a naziloving peadophillic biblequoting dessiacted lecherous old man.

Whereas you have the detectives on the side of the facist state who are portrayed sympatheticaly.

Sorry but IMHO it is very balenced, Thats where the strength of its argument comes from, its just that its portrayal of christianity (again IMO) is pretty off when compared with balence evident in the rest of it.

But this is something they may rectify in the film (though the fingers badges being crucifixes doesnt sound like it).

Harold Washington died for you

15:40 / 07.03.06

You cannot and should not pander to fools.

...

sleaze - exactly. V isn't supposed to be a "family" film (unless the Wachowski's *seriously* fucked with the source material), and people who would worry about the film being on the list aren't the target audience, anyway. In fact, the film being on some moral majority shit-list could possibly expand its audience somewhat.

One of my favorite things about movies is they often hit their unintended audience with more meaning and impact than the intended ones. As someone who has long loathed Israel's assassination policy the movie Munich caught me quite off guard and caused me, ever so slightly, to alter my beliefs on the problem. Pandering to "fools" can have positive results. Sometimes.

I'd burn my library card before I'd try to change anything about the VFV story, but the people who may need to hear the political message will refuse to see the movie because of the church bits.

17:02 / 07.03.06

>>>> I noticed that the propaganda posters in the comic say "Strength Through Purity, Purity Through Faith" but in the film they read "Strength Through Unity, Unity Through Faith." Small change but does alter the meaning somewhat.

I thought that was a good adaptation. "Purity" is a bit way too safe while playing the nazi card. "Unity" has that take of "hegemony is dumb". The "racism, prejudice and homofobia cards" should be played a bit better in the film, I feel. The comic is a bit outdated or even weak for it's own days I always felt.

The christian thing as it is being discussed here always felt unfair as if Alan Moore would turn himself into a 16 year old screaming common places of anarchist pearls. I mean, as much as the film might end up being rubbish, the comic book is not all that without it's doses of sillyness. This film could have been awesome in 2000 or 2001 (and IMHO, if they also had turned V into James-Bond-on-sexy-Jihad explotation :P).

I don't know, but both film and comic book (as much as I loved it when I first read it), IMHO, still seems to be the warm common thing that sleeps on the average U.S. liberal's mind (taking the term in the most vague manner I can remember from all U.S. shows and news we get). There will be things to be considered 'polemic' and 'dangerous' on ideas but I see that as the usual 'hardcoreism' and 'radikul' that keeps poppin' up in a lot of american entertainment. Well... who knows, maybe I'm completely off when in terms of what is really goin' on in America-mind-and-media. But I'm still curious to see if there's more to VFV than just a teenage 'lefty' version of "The Patriot" or something.

>>>>> I would like to see, but probably never will would be a B&W vesion of V for Vendetta.

It could have looked like they were taking advantage of Sin City's sucess or going for "cult B&W 'graphic novels'" as a formula or something. Besides common prejudice against B&W films, of course. In any case I think one day I will be seeing VFV in my computer with the color all ripped out and tastefully made into a beautiful B&W of my own choice. Or I hope they give us a choice on the DVD to see in specially made black&white.

What I'm REALLY looking foward to see is the scene where V broadcast his own show.

18:57 / 07.03.06

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

20:11 / 07.03.06

the V-TV logo in the corner has me chuckling.

22:06 / 07.03.06

Michelle Gale - I think I am closer to seeing what you are getting at, but I am still not sure I agree with you...

V for Vendetta is not a moral dilectic about sympathetic characters, and unsympathetic 'bad guys' but a dilectic between extreme right wing politics and an idealized form of anarchy. V for Vendetta does not end with a better world, only with the falling of the old order...

I don't think Finch, the detective, is meant to be a sympathetic character - he's meant to be a detective - he's our way in to V's back story - and he ends up maddened by his discovery...

In fact, I don't think *anyone* in V for Vendetta, with the possible exceptions of Evey and Valerie, are portrayed simply 'sympathetic'. Even the people, who have suffered much under Norsefire come under harsh criticism from V for allowing the party to remain in power by not rising up in acts of civil disobedience...

22:49 / 07.03.06

Harold Washington - I more confident I can see what you are arguing, but I think it's rubbish.

I think it's interesting and relevant that you didn't quote that part of my post that stated that some Christian groups had even complained that The Chronicles of Narnia, written by a renowned Christian and widely read and identified as a Christian allegory, as being unChristian.

Part of my point there being that some people are not particularly aware of the origins of what they are commenting on and they are unlikely to ever be satisfied by anything with the possible exception of wall to wall biblical epics...

I also maintain that some sensibilities SHOULD be offended, but this is not strictly relevant to the case of V for Vendetta...

I can appreciate wanting to craft covertly subversive messages that fly under the radar of blinkered 'Christian' America (as distinct from various Christian's in the US whose choice of entertainment is not preconditioned on its cleaving to biblical precepts), but, as Cloud points out V for Vendetta was never going to be one of those films...

V for Vendetta, is not only anti-authoritarian, it anti authority - there is far more for right-wing Christians to object about it than whether the fascist regime it depicts are wearing crosses...

Further, I reject any notion that religious groups should be able to dictate or influence the content of media that others consume.

23:23 / 07.03.06

/Live Free or Die" was a revolutionary motto. If you do not understand the power of this message to an American you are missing a vital part of the "American character"./

"American character"?

You wouldn't mind telling me what that is would you?

But I understand the power of language and the motto quite well thanks very much.

/Especially the "American Left" in this crazy age. That is why this movie will be a big cult hit for years. The idea of sacrificing everything for an ideal is in the hearts of all thoughtful Americans, especially those who hate their current government (whatever it may be)./

Who are these thoughtful americans who believe in such ideas?

Harold Washington died for you

04:20 / 08.03.06

Some family values lobby in the US also objected to The Chronicles of Narnia.

Yeah I though that was humorous. There's just no pleasing some people...but, really, Aslan? Here's the American Family Association. They liked it. This group was actually boycotting Disney before the movie dropped. The Southern Baptist Convention was also concurrently boycotting Disney, and said boycott was lifted very close to the Narnia release. Movies like Priest, Kids, and Dogma (and that whole giving health insurance to gay employees' families thing) started the boycottmania in the first place. These are not radical splinter groups, and VFV will not pass the test. I betcha.

V for Vendetta, is not only anti-authoritarian, it anti authority - there is far more for right-wing Christians to object about it than whether the fascist regime it depicts are wearing crosses...

Further, I reject any notion that religious groups should be able to dictate or influence the content of media that others consume.

I think it's a mistake to consider all right-wing Christians pro-Authority. These people aren't home-schooling their kids only because the teacher isn't allowed to lead the class in prayer. I see (from my sterile, agnostic perch) a strong undercurrent of Libertarianism in the evangelical community.

And, sure, I don't think it's right that some political organization like the AFA should tell "God fearing Christians" what they should or must not watch, but they do anyway.

"American character"?

You wouldn't mind telling me what that is would you?

In my opinion its 300+ million people operating under the assumption:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ... And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Declaration of Independence (but you already knew that

)

But thats how I always looked at "Live Free or Die". Just an abridged version of that document. Obviously each individual American's character has slight variations.

Who are these thoughtful americans who believe in such ideas?

Well, all of them!

07:40 / 08.03.06

Except those in the government of course...

08:18 / 08.03.06

And, sure, I don't think it's right that some political organization like the AFA should tell "God fearing Christians" what they should or must not watch, but they do anyway.

I think you are miss-reading my concern, or I am communicating them poorly... I'm not worried so much of extremist Christian groups, or people who would identify themselves as Christian, telling other Christians what to watch. I more concerned that the campaigns of these minority groups are affecting what people of other faiths and non-believers can and can't watch, and effecting what is and isn't made.

V For Vendetta isn't a 'Christian' film and should not be expected to bow to the dictates of a small group within Christianity. (There is a seperate debate about how truly Christian these people actually are...)

I also think you are kidding yourself if you think Church Libertarianism is about much else other than an attempt to resist the seperation of Church and State and the supremacy of non-religiously defined government, but again, that is probably a seperate debate...

09:34 / 08.03.06

V for Vendetta is not a moral dilectic about sympathetic characters, and unsympathetic 'bad guys' but a dilectic between extreme right wing politics and an idealized form of anarchy. V for Vendetta does not end with a better world, only with the falling of the old order...

I agree VFV that is a dialectic between the extreme right and anarchy, but the chracters and their interactions have a pretty big place in that over arching dialectic.

I don't think Finch, the detective, is meant to be a sympathetic character - he's meant to be a detective - he's our way in to V's back story - and he ends up maddened by his discovery...

Id say (for me at least) Finch is the most sympathetic character in it, And again IMO was intended to be more of a sympathetic character than V for example, even though he is actively trying to stop the regime being all revolutioned.

In fact, I don't think *anyone* in V for Vendetta, with the possible exceptions of Evey and Valerie, are portrayed simply 'sympathetic'. Even the people, who have suffered much under Norsefire come under harsh criticism from V for allowing the party to remain in power by not rising up in acts of civil disobedience

Id agree Evey and Valerie are the only purely "sympathetic" chracters, but the fact that those two women are such victims is counterpointed by Helen and her "lust for power". The story would be a very boring and pointless if everyone was sympathetic. its just that while almost every character has a double or counterpoint in some way, there is no double or counterpoint to christianity as emboddied by the archbishop. So in that respect its portarayal of christianity is unbalanced.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:30 / 09.03.06

Work colleague went to the premiere last night...he hasn't read the comic, but loved the movie...

17:08 / 09.03.06

Id agree Evey and Valerie are the only purely "sympathetic" chracters, but the fact that those two women are such victims is counterpointed by Helen and her "lust for power". The story would be a very boring and pointless if everyone was sympathetic. its just that while almost every character has a double or counterpoint in some way, there is no double or counterpoint to christianity as emboddied by the archbishop. So in that respect its portarayal of christianity is unbalanced.

I disagree that either Evey or Valerie are victims - both are incredibly strong women who remain defiant throughout the narrative...

I'm still having difficulty buying Evey as being the counter point of Helen the woman who would be 'queen'. Rose Almond is a more accurate counter point in some respects, but in others Rose offers a contrast to Helen - Rose actually kills the leader where as Helen never does, despite all her plans...

Outside of that, I think you are mistaken in looking for a posative portrayal of a priest as the counterpoint of a corrupt priest for a couple of reasons. Firstly, all the other characters are tightly woven into the narrative to serve a variety of functions - there isn't room for such a bit player in the narrative - secondly i think it a mistake to assume the counterpoint of corrupt Christian belief is inviolate Christian faith - I'd argue that uncorrutptable atheism of the type represented by V himself could be viewed as a far closer counterpoint...

18:32 / 09.03.06

I disagree that either Evey or Valerie are victims - both are incredibly strong women who remain defiant throughout the narrative...

I dont mean "victim" the talkshow tv label as in: "you are the VICTIM in all this, you have nothing to be sorry for, and should do nothing about your situation as you are a VICTIM."

I Just mean that theyve been put through comparably more badness because of them facists.

I'm still having difficulty buying Evey as being the counter point of Helen the woman who would be 'queen'. Rose Almond is a more accurate counter point in some respects, but in others Rose offers a contrast to Helen - Rose actually kills the leader where as Helen never does, despite all her plans...

At the begginng Evey is about to be assaulted by "fingermen", and is rescued by V. Toward the end Helen is being attacked by "lecherous tramps" (cant think of a better phrase) and Finch is given the opportunity to save her but does not, I think there is quite a few parralells between the two. I agree though that Rose is also a counterpoint to Helen.

Outside of that, I think you are mistaken in looking for a posative portrayal of a priest as the counterpoint of a corrupt priest for a couple of reasons. Firstly, all the other characters are tightly woven into the narrative to serve a variety of functions - there isn't room for such a bit player in the narrative - secondly i think it a mistake to assume the counterpoint of corrupt Christian belief is inviolate Christian faith - I'd argue that uncorrutptable atheism of the type represented by V himself could be viewed as a far closer counterpoint...

Id agree that V's atheism is the main counterpoint to the Archbishop's christianity, thats kind of my point though. there is no "sympathetic" portrayl of any kind of christianity at all (not just that of a priest). The narrative is superanally tightly woven but i dont think it would have hurt the story for Mr Moore to give one of the "good" characters a slight religous prelation.

19:30 / 09.03.06

But VFV isn't purely an indictment of corrupt Christianity... it stands as a kind of grudge match of two polar extremes. Anarchy and Fascism. And within that clash lies a very authoritarian Christianity.

Now what good would it do to portray a government bursting at the seams with corruption, hypocrisy, tyranny and malfeasance by 'balancing' out that decay with a more polished representation of the good it's done? Or of the good Christians within it? This is supposed to be an evolved version of Thatcherism. A political polemic. Again, a world of diametrically opposed philosophies. There is simply no room here for a 'sympathetic' Christian. As someone mentioned earlier, most of them would probably have been rooted out.

21:10 / 09.03.06

Michelle - I don't think we are ever goning to agree on need or lack therof of a positive portrayal of Christianity in V for Vendetta - however I think you are seriously mis-reading the ending when you say

Toward the end Helen is being attacked by "lecherous tramps" (cant think of a better phrase) and Finch is given the opportunity to save her but does not, I think there is quite a few parralells between the two. I agree though that Rose is also a counterpoint to Helen.

Helen isn't attacked at all - she's trading her body for food and shelter and doing so willingly - no one who isn't giving her something gets anything out of Helen - when Finch comes along she thinks she can 'trade up' to someone who can better provide for her but he's not interested...

15:24 / 10.03.06

Helen isn't attacked at all - she's trading her body for food and shelter and doing so willingly - no one who isn't giving her something gets anything out of Helen - when Finch comes along she thinks she can 'trade up' to someone who can better provide for her but he's not interested...

Wouldnt call it a "serious" misreading. Isnt Evey essentially attempting to "trade her body for food"? until V steps in? Both events mirror each other and it forms a nice narrative arc reinforceing how Moore judges the chracters in the story, and how ehe would like the reader to perceive them.

19:05 / 11.03.06

Got to agree with Michelle about Helen's final moments to us. Our first sighting of her with the "homeless/ post-flood/ mad-max-background-extras/" looks like she's being groped in the groins by the 'lecherous tramp' as the dialogue indicates that she's trying to pull the guy off. She says something about having traded her body before, but at that moment seemed like a horrible 'trying to get the most out of a inevitable rape situation' scene to me. It's pretty Grand Guinol when this dam of the opposite bursts.

Actually reading again that last page just made me agree more with Michelle's 'opposites'. Finch just won't police anymore...

19:21 / 11.03.06

"Come on, gissa shag, you gave him one..."
"HE had FOOD! What have YOU got?!"

That's the exchange as I remember it, which indicates that as sleaze says, she's deliberately and willingly choosing which people she has sex with, based on what she can get from them. They're not raping or molesting her.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:27 / 11.03.06

Hmmm - not sure she's in an ideal situation, mind...

I don't think Finch, the detective, is meant to be a sympathetic character - he's meant to be a detective - he's our way in to V's back story - and he ends up maddened by his discovery...

Also not sure about that - I think Finch is supposed to be a sympathetic character in the comic - he gets a little speech about how he doesn't believe in the Party ideology, and gets one in reply about how he is only allowed to live because he is useful. He's implicated, but he and Dominic are both written as sympathetic - as the shoots of decency inside the corrupt body, possibly.

20:30 / 11.03.06

I don't know, Cameron. It might be that my issue is really old, fucked up and I can't quite see straight throught the art work or the B&W on that particular panel. But on the first panel that Helen appears, on that final scene, there's a dude that appears to me to be a guy reaching out into her loins while in the next panel she's trying to desperately push him off. As far as I remember, it always read to me as "Riots leave the streets... AND REACHES EVERYWHERE!" brought to you by Fox News Team or something...

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