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Star Wars - Episode III - Revenge Of The Sith (SPOILERS)

 
  

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Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
17:48 / 22.05.05
I quite like it.
 
 
Triplets
19:01 / 22.05.05
Oh! I'm not complaining about the "Nooo!" I thought it was tops. Verr crazy robot anguish!
 
 
Yagg
04:09 / 23.05.05
When Darth Vader went "NOOOOOOOOOOO," corn actually started coming out of the screen. Pretty soon there were farmers in there, gathering up bushels of it to take to market. Just ears and ears of corn, a landslide of the ultimate in corn, TONS AND TONS AND TONS, SHIPLOADS OF CORN! Birds started swooping in and the farmers had to put up scarecrows. Guys came in and set up grills and were selling roasted corn on the cob for $1 each, no extra charge for butter! It took me ten minutes to dig my way out of the corn and get up when the movie was over. And still corn was just shooting out of the screen, whole ears hitting people in the head and knocking them senseless. Corn, corn, corn, I've never seen so much corn in my life. They were loading it on trucks, bushel after bushel of fresh Skywalker corn. Which I now realize is what they grow on the Skywalker Ranch. All the while the movie was still going on, but nobody could see it, smothered as we were, in a rising tide of corn. Acres and acres and acres of corn.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:36 / 23.05.05
This was probably the best looking movie ever.

How many movies have you seen?
 
 
Mark Parsons
08:50 / 23.05.05
I did not feel that Lucas could pull this off and I was totally wrong. If not for the novelty of HOPE, I'd put SITH as the best in the series. It does serve to make the Luke-Vader-Palpatine scenes in JEDI anticlimactic to say the least, but maybe Uncle George can tweak things a little. OK, alot...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:09 / 23.05.05
This was probably the best looking movie ever.

How many movies have you seen?


Well, I've seen at least a couple hundred, and I'm inclined to agree with him. Barton Fink might have better cinematography (and it obviously does), Rushmore might contain my favorite shot in the world (Max's close up during the Remote Controlled Airplane Scene), but neither of them look as crystalline, nor are they filled with the same levels of imagination and detail. Combine shooting digitally, with pretty much the most seamless effects work in movies to date, well, there you go.

Darius Khondji's pretty kick ass too. Se7en in particular was very well-shot...The Third Man, oh that has that last shot which is just legendary...But, mmm, no they still don't look as impressive as the Order 66 montage.

"...always fade out at the end of a montage..."
 
 
Benny the Ball
13:57 / 23.05.05
It looked shite. Too glossy, too fake. Give me the natural light changing across the fields of vibrant grassland in Thin Red Line anyday.

I'm suprised there wasn't a scene where Anakin popped in to see his aunt on Hoth and cousins on Dagobaa, thus making the Rebels seem like the worst Hide and Seek players in the world.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:02 / 23.05.05
I went back last night and watched A New Hope again. It's like a different movie, after seeing Revenge of the Sith -- suddenly there is context for the myths, and everything takes on that much more resonance - Alec Guiness's performance works so well in light of the retrofitted information (watch his eyes when Luke asks, "How did my father die?"). When the Jawas sell Artoo and Threepio to the Lars, Artoo knows exactly where he is because he's been there before. He also knows the name "Skywalker." (I don't remember, was he present when plans were made to hide Luke and Leia?) When Kenobi calls Artoo out of his hiding place after the sandpeople attack, it's a reunion, even if Old Ben's memory fails him (but electronic memories don't fade).

When Chewbacca meets Kenobi in the cantina, does he recognize him as a Jedi? He must, especially after the saber comes out. (Does he even remember the name Kenobi?) Is that why he offers to take them on? How would he have reacted if Han refused (not likely, given their finances, but would Chewie have allowed it? He knew that there was something bigger at stake)? [BTW, I wonder if Luke ever told Chewbacca, later, the name of his secret Master on Dagobah, and how Chewie would have felt?]

The Death Star trench. Darth Vader shoots R2D2, his old droid and fighting comrade. And Artoo knows. For some reason I find that even more poignant than the father-son encounter.

Yeah, a lot of it comes down to R2D2. It seemed a little forced in Episode I, but now it really feels essential; Artoo gives the audience a concrete sense of emotional continuity.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:18 / 23.05.05
I believe the answer to all those questions is "retcon". So, Chewie did not recognise Obi-Wan Kenobi, because retcon. Chewbacca's reaction to the revelation the Luke was taught by Yoda is "retcon". The reunion with Threepio? Retconunion.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:22 / 23.05.05
I believe the answer to all those questions is "retcon". So, Chewie did not recognise Obi-Wan Kenobi, because retcon. Chewbacca's reaction to the revelation the Luke was taught by Yoda is "retcon". The reunion with Threepio? Retconunion.

You seem to have missed my point.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:26 / 23.05.05
Really? Could you explain how, exactly, I have missed your point, with reference to what your point is?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
14:38 / 23.05.05
his point, which i think is cool and what i suspected would happen, is that Episode III (and other parts of the prequels) make the OT even more meaningful. They boost them up from mere pulp action fun to poignant tragedy, with more subtlety.

I like that. Of course, you have to view them as a 6 episode Star Wars saga, and not divide them into the "loved and perfect Original Trilogy" and the "hateful, what has Lucas done to my children, Prequel Trilogy."
 
 
Chiropteran
14:46 / 23.05.05
Really? Could you explain how, exactly, I have missed your point, with reference to what your point is?

Or perhaps I've missed yours? Entirely possible.

I was just talking about some of the interesting and (to me, at least, 'cos I'm a silly fanboy) emotionally engaging levels that are added to certain scenes (and speculative "off-camera" scenes) in the OT, after having seen RotS. From a certain perspective, I suppose this does count as "retcon," but I've always thought of retcon as having negative connotations - shoehorning something in that doesn't really fit - while I was going on about things that I feel add to the older scenes.

If our understandings of what is implied by "retcon" are different, then maybe you didn't miss my point at all, and we're just talking at cross-purposes. Or, just as likely, you get my point and disagree. I suppose I was reacting mainly to what I perceived as being your dismissive tone, which was my mistake.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:46 / 23.05.05
I suppose the question I have to pose to the people who are defending Episode 3 is - did you like the first two? Because Episode 2 is probably the most useless, utterly inept and irredeemable piece of drivel released by a major studio I've had the misfortune to sit through (excepting perhaps Episode 1). I do honestly try to look for the positive elements in movies I don't fully enjoy, there's a lot of films I have on my dvd shelf that I can admit aren't necessarily great movies but have certain worthwhile aspects to them - but I can't think of a single thing that I enjoyed about Episodes 1 and 2. I can't even REMEMBER most of them, so completely unengaging and incosequential were they.

Sooo...if you thought Attack of the Clones was really great, then your taste becomes automatically suspect...
 
 
Hieronymus
14:57 / 23.05.05
The Death Star trench. Darth Vader shoots R2D2, his old droid and fighting comrade. And Artoo knows. For some reason I find that even more poignant than the father-son encounter.

Yeah, a lot of it comes down to R2D2. It seemed a little forced in Episode I, but now it really feels essential; Artoo gives the audience a concrete sense of emotional continuity.


While I admit the whole Darth Vader/R2 thing is either genius or dumb luck (isn't it true that Vader and R2 don't share a single scene together in the Original Trilogy), it's the scenes with Kenobi and R2 now that don't make any sense. R2 saves his and Anakin's butt on Grevious's ship rescuing Palpatine and 20 years later Kenobi doesn't remember this droid one bit? Especially after Luke tells him that R2 is looking for Obi Wan Kenobi not Ben Kenobi? That doesn't kick up any memories? If nothing else as the droid of his former pupil?
 
 
Chiropteran
15:01 / 23.05.05
I suppose the question I have to pose to the people who are defending Episode 3 is - did you like the first two?

Someone upthread said something about picking gold nuggets out of the shit?

Episode I was a mess, but there are points that I really appreciated. I didn't feel like George really knew what the hell he was doing, and it showed. Episode II, I'm sorry, was a lot better. It was deeply flawed in many ways, but I think it was necessary in a way that Ep I wasn't. Still not great cinema, but Lucas was starting to find his feet again (and maybe remember a little bit of what made Star Wars work).

Episode III was good. It was worthwhile, IMO, mainly for the effect it has on IV-VI (see my earlier post), but it was also a damn good viewing experience on its own. Lucas scored. Finally (again). I withhold judgement on whether or not it was "a good film," since I've only seen it twice and I'm still in the fanboy afterglow. It did what it needed to do, though, and I feel that it did it well. FWIW.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:16 / 23.05.05
It looked shite. Too glossy, too fake. Give me the natural light changing across the fields of vibrant grassland in Thin Red Line anyday.

Yyyyyeah, that was a good shot, but, you know, shot on film, my DVD's got a pretty lousy transfer of it so, advantage Sith. You can argue, obviously, that it's fundamentelly better than any shot in Sith but, straight up, it does not look as good. I didn't think Sith (as opposed to Clones which looked glossy and Menace which looked worn out because it was shot on film and then hammered together with computers) looked "glossy or fake" at all. Well, not any faker than the existance of tiny green ninjae. I suppose consistent is the word I'm looking for. If you accept that all these things exist within the 2.35 frame, then there were virtually no instances where the process itself interfered (the only time it came close was with the clone commanders). Everything was visually seamless. I would imagine the brain's first instinct is to process it as "fake" because there's no way 60% of those shots could exist in the real world.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:19 / 23.05.05
I really am terrified by the miseducation that this whole prequels endeavour seems to have given some people about storytelling.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:24 / 23.05.05
it's the scenes with Kenobi and R2 now that don't make any sense......20 years later Kenobi doesn't remember this droid one bit? ......If nothing else as the droid of his former pupil?

Here's where I do a bit of retconning of my own...

Droids, IIRC (this might be EU, I don't remember, but bear with me), are routinely memory-wiped, and thus don't tend to build up much of a personality (droids designed for human interaction excepted). R2D2, of course, doesn't get wiped. Ever. Why... is more than a little stretched (there is at least one mention somewhere in the EU to R2 building a bypass into himself so that his core memories remain intact during his routine "maintenance"), but the point is that, for most people under most circumstances, their astromech droids are just useful appliances. And, unless one makes a point of it (as Luke does, and as it is implied that Anakin does), a pilot could get assigned a completely different one for every mission and neither notice nor care.

So expecting Obi Wan to recognize this one particular astromech droid of Anakin's from so many years ago is like asking a veteran to recognize the jeep that his friend drove in 'Nam (where he had more than enough to remember as it was).

Hey, Haus, I take it back - retconning is fun.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:26 / 23.05.05
I really am terrified by the miseducation that this whole prequels endeavour seems to have given some people about storytelling.

Could you unpack that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 23.05.05
That isn't a retcon, but rather fanwank. Explanations of the terms below.

Of course, you have to view them as a 6 episode Star Wars saga, and not divide them into the "loved and perfect Original Trilogy" and the "hateful, what has Lucas done to my children, Prequel Trilogy."

That is, of course, the only way and the only terms in which one could possibly divide them. Anybody not as keen on the prequels as you can only possibly think of the original movies as perfect and also as their children, and express themselves in laughably hyperbolic terms. As we know, that is how people who don't agree with you think.

Oh dear.

I can see how this process of contextualising might be seen, but to take it to the extreme of specificity of "look at Alec Guiness' eyes" seems to me to be pushing it quite hard. There are a couple of different possible interpretations. One is that George Lucas told Alec Guinness that Obi-Wan had done in Luke's father, and to emote that when Luke asks, in the expectation of explaining that later (which happens within the OT, doesn't it?). Another is that George Lucas, seeing that look in his eyes, has carefully sculpted a backstory leading up to that moment and that expression to get the most out of it, which is not outside the gift of such a master storyteller.

However, you do then get to the point where, for that to work, you have to start fanwanking (definition, to avoid confusion - the creation of explanations outside the text for apparent errors within it - for example, assuming that in the 20 or so years since the fall of the Republic, Obi-Wan has somehow forgotten R2D2), and that endlessly reduplicates problems. If Chewbacca was a staunch ally of the Jedi Knights, how come he didn't react at all to the lightsabre-flashing? Because it is a retcon - in that scene as it was shot, Chewbacca was not a staunch ally of the Jedi Knights. Now that it has become clear that only the Jedi used lightsabres, why does nobody react with a bit more surprise to the use of a lightsabre? Because that was not clear at the time. And the chronologies... as we have already established, the Republic would have to have been dissolved in water. Luke and Leia seem first to be different ages and also, if Luke is in his late teens, Obi-Wan seems to be remarkably badly-preserved. For R2 not to mention any of this highly relevant backstory at any point seems near-psychotic - what kind of a tin sadist is he? Is he somehow prevented from doing so by some mechanical artifice?

And on it goes.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:56 / 23.05.05
[straight face] Of course it's fanwank. I'm a fanboy, it's what we do. [/straight face]

I can see how this process of contextualising might be seen, but to take it to the extreme of specificity of "look at Alec Guiness' eyes" seems to me to be pushing it quite hard. There are a couple of different possible interpretations.

The most likely explanation being, of course, that fans see what they want to see. That's all it is.

I grew up on the original trilogy, and a lot of childhood memories are tied up in it. And, for largely nostalgic reasons, I am sometimes willing to make some allowances and reeeeeeach for some fairly tenuous explanations. Most of the time, though - the fanwankiness above aside (which was more of a game than serious attempt to justify poor continuity) - I'm simply happy to let Lucas's mistakes stand as mistakes. The work on the series was spread out over 30 years, and Lucas is not a master storyteller, so of course the plot is full of holes. As a fan I accept that and move on to the bits I like. I'm also a big fan of 50's sci-fi movies, so overlooking narrative inadequacy is something I'm used to. :P

We play with suspension of disbelief because it makes the movies more fun. We play a highly selective game of connect-the-dots from the original trilogy to the prequels because it makes the movies more fun. We act like it all matters because... it makes the movies more fun.

Sometimes pointing out the holes and inconsistencies is the fun part, and that seems to be where you are right now. I'm sure I'll join you there before long. Right now, I'm enjoying myself.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:13 / 23.05.05
Oh, Haus, how I love thee.

Yes, obviously, it's all retconned. Does anyone here really think that George had this thing plotted out to such a degree when he made IV-VI?

however, I think we can safely assume he knew that obi wan "killed" anakin. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems pretty likely. anakin = vader has been a major story point since his early drafts, if i remember my facts right. But even aside from that outside trivia...watching IV-VI, Obi Wan DOES KNOW and assuredly (if this were real world) would be masking emotions about this painful moment in his past life.

So it's not inconceivable that he told to Guiness to emote in a certain way, right? if you take the assumption that lucas knew the basic history of anakin and obi-wan, then this tracks.

Sure, Obi is probably too old in IV, if only 20 years passed...say he's 40-45 in III (which is probably close), he would be 60-65 in IV...guiness seems a bit older than that, but maybe he's been wallowing in decrepitude for 20 years cause...well, damn it, his "son" betrayed him and caused the downfall and slaughter of his friends.

Sure, why did the Death Star 1 take 20 years to build, and the second one only 5 years or so...well, there are any number of reasons that you could use to explain it away, and they all could be based in factual things, but...does it really matter?

Man, the best retcon theory I ever heard was: remember when boba fett is about to shoot chewie in cloud city when han is getting put in carbonite? vader stops him. why? well, cause C3PO, anakin's creation, was on Chewie's back, and vader didn't want him destroyed....hahahaha....

I'm not saying it's seamless, that there isn't the "obi doesn't remember R2? wtf!" and the "leia can't possibly remember her mother!," but it seriously doesn't hamper my enjoyment of any of the films, because they are star wars, and meant to be pulp/opera/fun. So a little retcon here and there...a little fanboy wank here or there...I still like Episode III, I still enjoy Episode II, and I still have a soft spot for quite a few moments of Episode I.

Doesn't diminish my unabashed love of the IV-VI. It enhances it...

but, that's me.
 
 
CameronStewart
16:19 / 23.05.05
>>>Does anyone here really think that George had this thing plotted out to such a degree when he made IV-VI?<<<

I don't even think he had it planned out when he made Star Wars. When Star Wars first screened in 1977 the opening crawl didn't even say "Episode IV: A New Hope" at the top - that was added AFTER Empire Strikes Back went into production. Sure he may have had some ideas here and there about Darth Vader's origin or whatever, but I think he's largely been making it up as he goes along.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:30 / 23.05.05
I think he's largely been making it up as he goes along.

I think he's actually said as much in interviews (I don't know if that's still the Official Lucasfilm Statement, though). There was some vague backstory for "current events," and he kept filling in more as he went, but definitely not the "he wrote all nine episodes at once back in the Seventies" that was going around for a while (and probably still is). Personally, I think he's lucky that it works as well as it does, even considering the innumerable flaws.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:36 / 23.05.05
I'm simply happy to let Lucas's mistakes stand as mistakes.

This is probably sensible. In a way, Lucas' misfortune is that his fanbase is traditionally obsessed with creating coherent and internally consistent worlds - the same tendency at work in Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and other fandoms, but he has through a combination of time, technology and other issues created a wildly inconsistent world that makes limited sense. Fanwank is a natural reaction to this - it's like white blood cells clustering around a wound.

Where things get weird is that Lucas is fanwanking himself - if there is a favourable cost-benefit ratio, the next logical step will be to go back over the OT and replace most of the action scenes with kick-ass CGI, a process already begun but not concluded. By that time the technology will be sufficiently advanced to justify going back over the prequels and reworking some of the scenes that Lucas was unable to make to his desired plan because of the limitations of the technology at the time... and so on. As an exercise in perpetual revolution, it's fascinating.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:49 / 23.05.05
As an exercise in perpetual revolution, it's fascinating.

I have little doubt that Lucas would like to do just that. Or, better, reshoot/reprogram a new Sextet update every few years. And this is where the fans' desire for internal consistency collides with their (our :S) conservative desire to preserve the movies they grew up on. (I think there's already a whole thread about the changes made to the OT DVD release, with much moaning.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:11 / 23.05.05
There is, and the way the complaints break down is quite interesting, IIRC. Some of the compliants might be seen as simply objecting to change (for example, the insertion of lizard-riding Stormtroopers - we know from Hoth that in some circumstances animals are more efficient than mechanical vehicles, and that soldiers are prepared to use them), others at insertions that were unnecessary and added nothing to the film but length (saay, Han's conversation with Jabba in ANH), and others where the film was materially altered in a way that was felt to impact negatively on the quality of the film - like Greedo shooting first.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:36 / 23.05.05
Are we still any closer to justifying Luke getting it on with Leia in Splinter Of The Mind's Eye?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
17:42 / 23.05.05
Didn't you ever kiss a girl you didnt know was your sister, but who you later found out was? Come on, now! Everybody does it.
 
 
Chiropteran
17:50 / 23.05.05
Yeah, but we don't all compound the problem by also killing our father that we didn't know was our father. That's where it all falls apart, of course.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:51 / 23.05.05
Saw it this afternoon...Enjoyed it loads. Hilarious.

I hated Episode 2, thought Episode I was a bit flaky. This was great entertainment though. £2.50/hour? Sold.

Of course it doesn't hang together properly. Especially the whole Death Star under construction scene, which was totally unnecessary...and the reappearance of a Jedi Knight in ANH not being a matter of major note to just about everyone everywhere...what, no CNN?

Still a fun way to kill 2 hours though.
 
 
Chiropteran
17:53 / 23.05.05
So, do you think George will ever get around to recalling Splinter, or will he just mail out new Special Edition pages to paste over the old ones? When the Lucasfilm agents show up at my door, I'm hiding my copy.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:53 / 23.05.05
Oh, and the total disappearance of Coruscant from the story after Episode III...wha?

(That 'NOOOOO!' made me laugh my ass off. As did every single mention of 'Younglings'. It was a superb comedy as well as having some quite well done emotional dimensions completely lacking in the other 2).
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
19:36 / 23.05.05
That 'NOOOOO!' made me laugh my ass off. As did every single mention of 'Younglings'
Same here. The audience that I saw it with were also openly laughing at all of the Anakin/Padme romantic scenes and the Cosmo cut 'n' paste dialogue ("You're shutting me out! Hold me like you did on Naboo!" etc).

That said, there was also cheering when Yoda bitchslapped Palpatine's red guards, and when R2D2 got a kicking from the droids at the beginning.

I dunno. When it was good it was extremely good - I thought that the Palpatine/Anakin scene at the theatre, when he explains what can be gained through the Dark Side was one of the best in the entire sextet; Ian McDiarmid rocks the party with the calm but creepy stance. The designs were gorgeous, the CGI (although omnipresent) was excellent, the general plotting about Anakin's transformation was actually pretty good and the fights felt like they meant something rather than just being inserted to fill time. And there were scenes of genuine horror and upset, namely Order 66 (deeply unpleasant and unexpected) and the Mace Windu/Palpatine showdown.

But. But. The painting-by-numbers exposition just made my teeth itch - y'know, we can work some of that out for ourselves. And George Lucas writes dialogue like I write Sanskrit (ie. not); I couldn't work out whether much of the acting was genuinly crappy or just a by-product of the fucking awful lines they were being forced to say. I think what was so jarring was the well-executed scenes and montages (eg. cutting between Padme giving birth and Anakin being Vaderised)being adjacent to the truly shitty scenes that followed ("NOOOOOO!" etc).

AND. If the entire bloody crux of this sextet comes down to Anakin making hugely consequential choices because he is so utterly in love with his bird, then Jesus, that love has to be well documented and represented either with good dialogue or scripting. Which is where we came in.

It was a hell of a lot better that I and II (both of which made me want to stab my eyes out) but if Lucas is capable of doing good stuff (which I do think he is) then why the hell didn't he apply this quality control to the entire film?
 
  

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