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Star Wars - Episode III - Revenge Of The Sith (SPOILERS)

 
  

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Keith, like a scientist
13:52 / 15.06.05
apparently Stoppard's stuff was all dialogue heavy and mostly packed into the 'birth of rebellion' scenes and Lucas cut most of that subplot...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:52 / 15.06.05
. If Solo is the only character in the series you can relate with I suggest going to more films with Bruce Willis.

I'd love to, but whenever I invite him he comes up with some bullshit excuse.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:28 / 15.06.05
Oh, come on, to attack ROTS for bad dialogue is shooting fish in a barrel. They've ALWAYS had shit dialogue (indeed, the only truly great exchange in any of the movies- the Han/Leia "I love you"/"I know..."- was made up on set by the actors), and I certainly don't think this was the worst offender. (That would be "...Clones", in my opinion).

Interestingly (and it's not the same people, so don't go accusing me of attacking anyone) the Barbe-consensus appears to be that good dialogue is vital for a movie (see this thread) whereas emotional engagement isn't (see the Sin City thread). Are we sure about this?

Anyway, to get back on-topic, I actually thought the dialogue, while still, yes, poo, was a vast improvement on the last two, because it at least matched the overblown melodramatics of the story, whereas in "Menace" and "Clones" it seemed not just bad but horribly out of place.
 
 
Benny the Ball
22:45 / 15.06.05
I'm still really confused and feel slightly dirty when I think about the exchange between Padame and Anakin on her balconey - so he loves her because she's only beautiful because she loves him loving her?
 
 
multitude.tv
08:35 / 16.06.05
Stoatie’s comments are, I think, important. And by the way I never said dialogue WAS NOT important IN Star Wars, but rather that it is not AS important as imagery and music. Though I would be inclined to say that music and dialogue are in the service of the imagery in a great deal of, but not all,(American) film, but then again, I would be wrong according to the dictates being adopted here for film evaluation. Unlike others on this list I guess I have not found, or have been granted, THE universal standard by which to judge all films. Film should be more like theatre damn it!

Furthermore, come to think of it, I don’t see how we can take Lucas at his word when he says he views dialogue in these films as a sound effect, what with central supporting characters like Chewbacca and R2-D2, and mostly silent characters like Maul and Fett. Sequences such as the resolution of III when the twins are dispersed, Vader’s noooooo!!!!, should be clearly dialogue driven scenes as the imagery and music just doesn’t cut it. And obviously Vader’s disembodied voice is primarily a device for dialogue and has nothing to do with the furthering the imagery of the character itself. Lucas is just plain lying and full of himself, giving excuses for backing out of the categorical dictate that dialogue must be central to film narrative, thus his films suck.

Some people only like silent (or menacing) bad guys and fast talking protagonists, while others I guess mistakenly, like those sorts of characters in addition to dramatic and grand mystical knights and over the top rhetorical villains (among others). Some go for the this OR that (with grand transcendental insight), others go for the this AND this AND, etc, granting the text a bit of the benefit of doubt looking for ways to expand the text, or to use the text for something else (rather than just fuel for proving the divine dictate of film). For example I enjoy Star Wars AND Lord of the Rings and do not find it necessary to compare them, their directors, or the aims of the films. I think that both film franchises stand on their own technical and narrative merits and don’t need to stand in comparison against one another. But according to the Film Imperative of Dialogue I am horribly wrong.

BTW, I would say that Anakin’s dialogue is bad in the same way that Luke’s is bad. (both are incredibly whinny, at times arrogant, and naive). There is actually, a great deal of dialogue that is incredibly similar as that in the original trilogy.

Personally I find being able to enjoy films for their own merits, well, enjoyable, and I try not to bring to much of my own bias (or universal dictate) to the table when experiencing film, I am not looking for reasons to not enjoy something, especially when I do enjoy it (and spend 8$ to see it). I don’t think that because I enjoy this film it somehow makes me less intelligent or incabalbe of saying anything meaningful about film, or that if I were to attack it that I would somehow prove my intellect and thus my status as a true critic and acolyte of the dictate of dialogue. And I certainly do not hold that in order to be critical one must be scathing, or that criticism is essential a negative procedure (in fact I see criticism as productive). But then again, I am sure there is a cynic (or dog) in the field who is quick to bite with their own NOOOOOOO!!!!!.
 
 
Benny the Ball
09:37 / 16.06.05
Something doesn't have to be wordy to be dialogue driven (just look at the final exchange in Brieft Encounter - three words and more conveiance of emotion than most films)

Lucas is just odd, he doesn't like directing actors, he doesn't seem to enjoy the film making process, he calls dialogue a sound effect, and yet he calls himself a film maker while trying to make a dialogue rich trilogy of films in which he has claimed that the emotional core of the third film is potent thanks to performance (all that talk about it being the episode to make you cry) and dedicated a large chunk of his life to do it. Why not just oversee the process, why direct when it's something he doesn't seem to enjoy, why not just animate the whole thing?

Anyway, whatever, I still think the first three films are rubbish except for the moment when the doors open in PM and Liam Neeson says 'we'll handle this' - at most 5 minutes out of 6 hours isn't good.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:49 / 16.06.05
Ammonius - you're sulking. Which is fine, but it's possible to do it with fingers off keyboard. The high-pitched whine of sneery passive aggression is creating a comceptual sound akin to somebody strimming a harpsichord, and it's not fun. Discuss the film like something resembling a grown-up (which, as we never tire of trying to explain, does not mean falling over your shoes attempting to use long words in convoluted sentences), or don't discuss the film.
 
 
diz
10:04 / 16.06.05
OK, now that i've gone away and come back, i see that i clearly went overboard with the dialogue thing, and more importantly allowed myself to conflate my defense of the idea of making a film with dialogue as a secondary or even tertiary concern with my defense of dialogue in this particular film.

i tend to get knee-jerky and defensive when people start crowing about the Importance of Dialogue and the superficiality of effects and yada yada yada because, to my mind, it's sort of indicative of the equivalent of a rockist mentality for movies. i also get irrational about defending SW because i am, for better or worse, totally irrationally in love with the SW universe. these two things came together in a bad way. i withdraw. mea culpa.

====

You are right, these films (the prequels) have no obvious anti-hero to be ``cool`` in the macho-mook sense of the term, by the way, Obi-Wan is a character I can relate to, he is IMO much more complex than nearly anybody I have read gives him credit for. If Solo is the only character in the series you can relate with I suggest going to more films with Bruce Willis.

whoa, whoa, let's not get carried away. i think you'd have to be completely off your rocker not to see how much the character of Han Solo, and perhaps even more importantly Harrison Ford's portrayal of him, added to the original trilogy, and conversely how much the prequel trilogy suffered from not having someone bringing that kind of spark to the table. i don't think anyone needs to be getting on people's backs for stating the obvious in that case.

that said, i agree that Obi-Wan is underrated. TPM wouldn't have been so goddamn awful if Lucas had focused on Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon as the central character, which is arguably the most serious mistake he made with any of the movies (Jar-Jar being a close second).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:52 / 16.06.05
to my mind, it's sort of indicative of the equivalent of a rockist mentality for movies.

I know exactly what you mean instinctively, which is one of the reasons it annoys me to have statements misinterpreted (for example, nobody's said that movies should be more like theatre). I'm never a fan of writing off popular culture as too popular, shallow, flashy, etc. However, at this point in time I would argue that the Star Wars franchise does not fall into this category (pop cinema, I guess we'd call it). Look at it this way: one of the defining characteristics of 'rockism' (not a fan of the term, but you and I know what we're talking about, more or less) is placing too much importance on an established canon of works that were usually made several decades ago, right? And often it involves ascriving too much gravitas and seriousness to works which were conceived as disposable pop entertainment (and actually have more value as such).

Well, what is Star Wars if not part of an established canon (dunno about the US, but in the UK the first two films regularly top '100 Greatest Movies' lists and surveys)? And as for too much gravitas being ascribed... Think abou those people who wrote 'Jedi' on their census and meant it. People who honestly think Yoda is "the wisest of the wise" or a good source of advice for life (when it fact, "do or do not, there is no try" is terrible advice - what, so every time you try something for the first time and it doesn't quite work, you give up rather than striving to improve?). Or people who think recognising what a great character Solo is - how necessary he is to stop the first trilogy descending into prog-rock cod-mystical hogwash - means you must only like "films with Bruce Willis" (I admit that one's just baffling, I mean it's pretty much a non sequitor).

The closest analogy I can think of is the Beatles Anthology series: once upon a time the Beatles were a pop band. But those Anthology albums weren't pop albums, they were unnecessary, bloated, nostalgia-dependent exercises in printing money, and it wasn't anti-pop or snobbish to slag them off. Nor is it overly reverrent or stuck in the past to think that the original albums were better.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:20 / 16.06.05
>> Oh, come on, to attack ROTS for bad dialogue is shooting fish in a barrel. They've ALWAYS had shit dialogue

I don't think that's an excuse for bad dialogue. The original 3 films' dialogue is often slightly adventure-movie-campy but in a wonderful way; it's of a unilaterally higher quality in the first films than in the prequels. If the first 3 films' dialogue was SO awful, they wouldn't have endured as the classics they are.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:55 / 16.06.05
In my opinion, it was, and they still have. But let's agree to differ, I guess.
 
 
gridley
14:30 / 16.06.05
The OT certainly has a lot more quotable lines than the prequels. To this day, I still find myself dropping lines into conversation, such as "Never tell me the odds" or "I find your lack of faith disturbing" or even "Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops."

Whereas the only decent line I can remember from the prequels is "That is the sound of a thousand terrible things headed this way."
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:25 / 16.06.05
When you put it like that... hmm.

I'll have more of a think about this one.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:34 / 16.06.05
Aw, Griddo, you know you want to drop "If so confident you are...why leave?" into daily conversation, like, daily.

I also tend to announce my presence among certain friends with an Obi-Wanian "That's..why I'm here!"

Certainly not without its quotables, if the people you share your social life with are as pathetic as you are.
 
 
diz
23:18 / 16.06.05
Well, what is Star Wars if not part of an established canon (dunno about the US, but in the UK the first two films regularly top '100 Greatest Movies' lists and surveys)?

Star Wars has always had an uneasy relationship with the canon. the prevailing film geek myth is that American film in the '70s was a Golden Age of "legitimate" Serious Film, then Jaws and Star Wars came along and ruined everything with their cheap populist trash.

The original 3 films' dialogue is often slightly adventure-movie-campy but in a wonderful way; it's of a unilaterally higher quality in the first films than in the prequels.

"Governor Tarkin, I should have recognized your foul stench the moment I stepped aboard this station."
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
11:54 / 17.06.05
geek: i went to see ROTS for the 4th time wed night, when Batman Begins opened. I went to the theater I've been going to for the first 3 times, because it's the only one with a DLP digital projection screen.*

There was absolutely NO ONE else in the huge theater. It was like my own private theater for the night, haha. I couldn't believe my luck.



*best way to see AOTC and ROTS - no loss, pure digital to digital reproduction, not reel changes, no spots, no dust, etc. super super bright colors, crystal clarity.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:36 / 17.06.05
but what also makes the OT work better is that the actors are better - Carrie Fisher SELLS that line, yo!! And the line you cite has the 'adventure-movie-campy but in a wonderful way' quality that I mention. It sure is better than 'younglings' and 'you're so beautiful cause I'm in love with you' or whatever. In my opinion.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:43 / 17.06.05
again...i think Younglings is a term like Padawan, which works, right?
 
 
FinderWolf
13:52 / 17.06.05
I know, but it's the repeated line "You killed younglings" (three times I believe) that drew laughter from the audience, more each time -- that and Natalie Portman's bad acting.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:53 / 17.06.05
new Star Wars TV series tidbits from aint it cool news: sounds awful...

----

Hi, Harry:

I will make it short. Rick McCallum, the co-producer of Star Wars the Revenge of the Sith, revealed the details of Star Wars TV series when he was at the press conference in Japan today. The article I read was from the Mainichi Shimbun (Mainichi Paper) web site, a reputable newspaper in Japan.

He said,

The story will take place in about 20 year span between Episode 3 and Episode 4.
It will depict how characters end up being together (didn’t mention who).
It will depict how Luke grows up.

George Lucas will start working on it as soon as he finishes Indy Jones, he said. The production will start next year, and the whole series will be about 100 hours long.

He also mentioned 3-D version of all six movies “within two to three” years.

--------------------------------------
 
 
PatrickMM
16:26 / 17.06.05
In looking at Sith, and the prequel trilogy as a whole, I think it's better to enjoy it from the point of view of what works than to dismiss it because of what it fails to do. The film has a lot of flaws in the acting and dialogue, but the things it does do right are so good that they make it into a great movie.

I've seen a lot of movies where there's nothing particularly wrong with them, they just don't engage me in any way. Mystic River was like this, it's a pretty well told story, with solid acting, but I just didn't care about what was going on.

Sith, for all the clunky dialogue and awful Natalie Portman, had me completely riveted and drawn into the world of the story. The final half hour or so was one of the most intense experiences I've had at the movies in a long time, and it was just as good seeing it again. Basically, the film does so much right, to dwell on the few things it does wrong is just approaching things from the wrong viewpoint.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:32 / 06.07.05
i miss talking about star wars.
 
 
haus of fraser
12:38 / 06.07.05
Keith, read the Big brother thread- start from the begining- Ganesh is very good at telling you exactly who has been doing what to whom..

Pepper it with visits to Digital spy and the Channel 4 site until you feel you know whats going on (I assume you're based in the USA so you can't watch our BB on TV..)

Maybe don't even buy that next Sith ticket but subscribe to the live broadband feed instead. You really won't miss it for much longer...

*Apologies for the threadrot but there are solutions...*
 
 
CameronStewart
12:53 / 06.07.05
>>>(when it fact, "do or do not, there is no try" is terrible advice - what, so every time you try something for the first time and it doesn't quite work, you give up rather than striving to improve?)<<<

I don't quite think that's the message of that line - I always took it to mean that if you attempt something you must have the confidence and belief in your ability to achieve it. Saying "ok, well I'll try, but I may not be able to do it" is self-doubt, which leads to failure. It's not about giving up if you can't do it, it's about giving it your absolute effort.
 
 
Loomis
13:13 / 06.07.05
... as further evidenced by Luke's response to Yoda's use of the force to lift his ship out of the swamp: "I don't believe it!" Yoda's reply: "That is why you fail."

End geek transmission.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:20 / 06.07.05
Now THAT'S good dialogue!

 
 
Keith, like a scientist
16:55 / 06.07.05
no, This is good dialogue
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:08 / 06.07.05
DO NOT WANNNNNTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 
Lord Morgue
06:28 / 13.07.05
UNLLLLLIIIIIMETEDDDDDD POWWWWWWWERRRRR!

UNLIIIIIIMMMTEDDDDD RRRRRIIIIICCCEEEE PUUUUUDDIIIIINGGGG!!!
 
 
Mug Chum
20:30 / 13.07.05
I'm sorry. Am i moronic, or is this really funny?

(Tom Cruise and the dark side of scientology)
http://www.zippyvideos.com/153109597471325.html

many of you must have seen this already, but it cracks me up everytime i see it. I might be going retarded...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
00:43 / 14.07.05
verdict: funny.
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:00 / 18.07.05
Ghod, Annie always falls for the old "I've fallen and I can't get up" trick- Luke did it in ROTJ, and this time, Sidious was all "Oh, Anakin! Help me! The nasty black man is mugging me! He stole my purse! He said he was going to make me his "punk ass bitch"- what does that mean, Anakin? NOOOOO! NOOOOOO! Growing weeeeeaaakerrrr... weeeaakerrr... stronger! Weeeeeaaakerrr...".
Heh, when Shaft Windu and his posse came to arrest Palpy, I was fully expecting Jackson to say "I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?" and launch into the Ezekiel speech- but then Palpy got all Black Mage on their asses, poor Kit Fisto went down like a three-dollar hooker, no more Expanded Universe adventures for you, Kit.
 
 
Bastard Tweed
03:26 / 20.07.05
Kit Fisto?

He's called . . . with the jedi . . . and the force stuff . . . lightsaber . . .




Seriously, KIT FISTO?!?
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
04:44 / 20.07.05
George Lucas has always been a master of the symbolic moniker. The first name to crop up when I went to the Databank section of starwars.com: a 'slimy narcotics dealer' named Elan Sleazebaggano.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
04:49 / 20.07.05
Speaking of clever names, I just noticed that the narcotics which The Sleaze sells are called 'death sticks.' Thank you, Mr. Lucas, for your subtle commentary on the dangers of drugs.
 
  

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