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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Unconditional Love
08:38 / 19.02.08
Could possibly the association between Artemis and Bast come from the Egyptian training and use of cats to hunt? I seem to remember reading that the Egyptians used hunting cats and was taken by the idea of a people that could train cats. The cats would fetch the prey and the hunter would use bow and arrow.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:49 / 19.02.08
I remember the image from a childrens book and at least one scholar seems to validate the idea on line, thou i am not up to spec on modern Egyptology, it might just be possible that their is a relationship through the association to hunting and other factors mentioned in the previous link to the bast web site.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:01 / 19.02.08
Delta, if you look at genesis and kabbalah, you could follow it through like this (and this is my own take from reading and meditation) - kether as god the division of light and darkness as chokmah and binah respectively, the 7 days of creation as the sephirah beneath the prime triangle.

Each sephirah has angelic and fallen angelic attributions this would be one way of looking at your dilemma, thou i am sure you will find many others the more you search for answers.
 
 
Katherine
14:55 / 19.02.08
I think there is some confusion about the "protection" of cats. Cats are sacred to Her and it is more like She would rule over them. She may decide to protect, but just as easily decide that She wants to take their lives.

Not to mention that healthy cats and older kittens have been found mummified to her, if sacrifice of the animals she is said to protect is allowed then it throws up some questions on how that role would have been seen in ancient Egypt.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:05 / 19.02.08
But mummification was something done to honor and preserve bodies and souls; would they have seen sacrificing the animal as truly harming it? I'm not sure the ancient Egyptian mindset about this sort of rite was quite the same as ours.

It sounds as though this was a practice of sending to the god that which was sacred to them, in the same way that one might deposit gold into a sacred pool, or burn incense. Not so much an act of harming an animal as giving the god what Ze likes best.
 
 
Katherine
18:52 / 19.02.08
Indeed and also it would have solved the problem of the amount of kittens and cats around. I think the whole concept needs careful thought and you have said their viewpoint is different from ours.

The animals have every appearence of being well cared for, just quite young in a lot of the cases. Maybe it is a bit cold to view it as a method of controlling the cat pop but with care and food for them available then the breeding may have got out of control. The food being available for the mother and growing kittens means more of them than average would probably survive to young adulthood. I will just state that I do not believe this to be the main or one of the main reasons for this practice but it may have been a minor reason.

One idea is that the spirits of the cat mummies were used as messengers to Bast, so with that in mind and the lack of injuries to the corpse I would agree with reports saying the cats were dispatched quickly to minimise pain to them.
 
 
ghadis
12:03 / 20.02.08
Maybe it is a bit cold to view it as a method of controlling the cat pop but with care and food for them available then the breeding may have got out of control.

I don't think it had anything to do with controlling the cat population at all. The vast majority of cat mummies are from cats that were bred, in areas attatched to dedicated temples, specifically for the purpose of sacrifice. The existence of these breeding centres is well attested as well as a job title of 'cat-breeder' In one of the largest in depth studies into cat mummies of recent years (looking at over 300 mummies from the Bubasteion of Saqqara - the so called 'Door of Cats') it was found that most of the cats were of a young age and all were found with cervical disjunctions and/or skull fractures which seems to suggest that the method of sacrifice was to hold the back legs of the cat and to swing it round fast, hitting it onto a hard surface. Other smaller studies, such as the 50 or so cat mummies at the British Museum, come up with similar results.

This temple practice was pretty late in history though and as cats were often kept as pets (often appearing in family portraits) there were quite likley cat population problems but i very much doubt that the sacrifice and mummification would have been one of the solutions. This process would have been a lenthy and expensive one and as such only a smallish percentage of the poulation would have been able to afford it. Families of the elite top percentage of the population may have had their pet cats mummified when they died.
 
 
ghadis
12:21 / 20.02.08
Incidently, one of the largest cat necropolises ever discovered in Egypt was at Beni Hasan in the 19th century where literally thousands upon thousands of cat mummies were discovered dedicated to the cat goddess Pakhet. The vast majority of these unfortunatly were sent back to England to be ground up and used as fertiliser. It's said that just one shipment weighing about 20 tons would have contained approx 180,000 cat mummies.

It's facinating to think that a cat, sacrificed and mummified as a votive offering from an individual, or family, to Pakhet may, 3000 years later, find itself in a barley field in Kent.
 
 
Haloquin
23:01 / 20.02.08
I've been trying to practice/learn scrying recently. I've found I get results only when I start with an image and then allow it to evolve while using the focla point (a black mirror, in this case).

I decided to use a rune I pulled for focus; Laguz.

I got startling results and am not sure I want to scry around the runes like this until I'm better at it generally. It seemed to result in contact with what I assume is the rune-spirit. Who then (reasonably) wanted payment in return for helping (which I gave, but wasn't expecting).

It seems wierd to practice with the runes if I'm going to be bugging spirits before I have found my feet, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to use now.

So, please can I have suggestions for symbols to focus on for practice? Or would anyone recommend jumping headfirst in and sticking with the runes? If so, any pointers for how best to go about it without causing offence or incurring stupid debts? (Accepting, for the moment, the validity of this perspective.)

Also out of curiosity; would this, in your opinions, be classed as scrying?
 
 
electric monk
02:08 / 21.02.08
I am not at all familiar with scrying, and apologies if this seems wrongheaded, but it seems to me that starting with a sigil might be the way to go. Custom-made for whatever you're scrying, no links to spirit or diety that you don't put there yrself, and debt free IME.

That's if you need a symbol to get you going. Does the image have to be a symbol? Could you, instead, visualize the person/place/situation/etc. that you want to scry?
 
 
Quantum
11:13 / 21.02.08
"...it was found that most of the cats were of a young age and all were found with cervical disjunctions and/or skull fractures which seems to suggest that the method of sacrifice was to hold the back legs of the cat and to swing it round fast"

You'd need a bit of room to do that. Room enough to swing a cat...
 
 
EmberLeo
00:42 / 22.02.08
That would be much funnier if I weren't trying so hard not to cry at the image of such cat dispatching.

There are days I could wish for a harder heart...

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
00:57 / 22.02.08
Haloquin:

I decided to use a rune I pulled for focus; Laguz. I got startling results and am not sure I want to scry around the runes like this until I'm better at it generally. It seemed to result in contact with what I assume is the rune-spirit. Who then (reasonably) wanted payment in return for helping (which I gave, but wasn't expecting).

I personally don't experience the runes as Personified in that sense, though I know others who do. So if I had such an encounter, I would not feel safe assuming that such being was the spirit of the rune rather than someone else entirely. I would probably inquire as politely as possible as to who exactly wanted payment, and precisely what for, and what kind, and then do my best to pay my debt.

So, please can I have suggestions for symbols to focus on for practice?

I understand that you're using the symbol for focus, but are you using it for subject focus or technique focus?

Tarot cards seem like an obvious choice if you want something to give you a subject-specific focus.

If it's for focus of technique you're after, I think I would want to use as neutral a symbol as possible - one that represents "Divination" to me in the general sense. To that end, I would probably design my own.

But that may only be useful if I either already have a topic to focus on that I'm trying to divine, or else have arranged for the question to be asked of me after I have established the divinatory space.

Or would anyone recommend jumping headfirst in and sticking with the runes?

That would depend on my having a bigger picture of your overall goals and beliefs, which I'm afraid I haven't been tracking - sorry. I don't think folks need to run screaming from the Runes at all cost. I do think the practice should be respected. I do think that if you definitely never want Odin's attention, avoiding runes would help. I don't think learning the runes guarantees Odin's attention. I think if you're going to study the runes, you should not only study multiple modern sources, but multiple translations of the origional rune poems if at all possible.

I don't think this is an unreasonable use of runes, but given your context, and that it's not quite Galdr, I would estimate that you're mixing runes with Seidh, which is likely to produce fairly interesting, and potentially highly effective results, but definitely won't help you stay away from the attention of otherworldly beings and spirits.

I am a bit curious - were you trying to learn more about Laguz, or what?

If so, any pointers for how best to go about it without causing offence or incurring stupid debts? (Accepting, for the moment, the validity of this perspective.)

What sort of payment was requested? If it's just that recognition and offerring is desired, and you're fairly well certain it's the spirit of the rune itself, it may be a matter of pouring out some good ale or cider - or, if you can get it, a bit of mead - before you do such work again.

Sincerity, honesty, and respect go a long way.

Also out of curiosity; would this, in your opinions, be classed as scrying?

I would perhaps label it a form of Spae. I suppose Scrying is also a form of Spae, but I don't have a sense of what defines "scrying" so I can't really help you there.

--Ember--
 
 
Haloquin
15:48 / 22.02.08
Thank you IDS and Emberleo, very helpful posts with much to think about. As a result this turned out much longer than I intended!

a sigil might be the way to go. Custom-made for whatever you're scrying...

That's if you need a symbol to get you going. Does the image have to be a symbol? Could you, instead, visualize the person/place/situation/etc. that you want to scry? - The Infinite Dream Syndicate


A sigil may be a good idea. I'll try it. Thanks.
I've tried once or twice focussing on people/places, but I found it harder to concentrate on than one symbol. Perhaps thats because I was using family, and I have so many stories and images that I couldn't focus on one, which made it difficult to let other images arise. Not using a symbol leaves my mind blank (good for empty brain meditations!), so I'd prefer to have something.

I personally don't experience the runes as Personified in that sense, though I know others who do. So if I had such an encounter, I would not feel safe assuming that such being was the spirit of the rune rather than someone else entirely. I would probably inquire as politely as possible as to who exactly wanted payment, and precisely what for, and what kind, and then do my best to pay my debt. - Emberleo

Thats a good point. It seemed right, but I don't remember if I double checked. I've felt the rune-spirits as personified before, and have a certain degree of expecting them to be. It was an offering, which was easy enough to give. It seemed to be asked for as a mark of respect, a kind of reminder that I shouldn't expect them just to help me because I want them to, and a payment in return for good information. I should perhaps check what I was told against the rune-poems and see if there was a correlation. I'm letting it mull over for a bit before I do anything more with it though.

I understand that you're using the symbol for focus, but are you using it for subject focus or technique focus?

The idea was as technique focus, so I'll try making a sigil/symbol. It seemed that it became a subject focus, and I suspect I might need a subject to focus on, rather than just leaving it open. I have trouble just opening up generally, so this will be an interesting experiment. If it turns out that the lack of subject is a block I'll try the tarot cards although I hope I'll continue without in case there is something important to be learned here.

That would depend on my having a bigger picture of your overall goals and beliefs, which I'm afraid I haven't been tracking - sorry. I don't think folks need to run screaming from the Runes at all cost. I do think the practice should be respected. I do think that if you definitely never want Odin's attention, avoiding runes would help. I don't think learning the runes guarantees Odin's attention. I think if you're going to study the runes, you should not only study multiple modern sources, but multiple translations of the origional rune poems if at all possible. - Emberleo

Theres no reason you should have been tracking my beliefs or goals, so please don't apologise. Since entering paganism I've avoided the Nordic-related deities, magics etc. Irrationally wary of them even when I've known nothing about them (Where conversely I've been more than willing to poke every other system I've come across). So, when I realised that I likely had a connection with Hella already I was unsure, but have, over the past year, very slowly gotten more involved. I'm currently moving where I feel led, and scrying is next on the list - both from ancestor work, from the poking in the back of my brain I associate with Hella, and co-incidentally, recent Feri work.

I was going somewhere with that but got distracted - original thought was that I'm not seeking attention from anyone, but I'm trying to not be irrationally scared by it and to be open to contact if it comes. So I'm not going to go out of my way to either avoid or bug Odin, or other beings.

Yes! Homework! Over the years I've read quite a few books with information on the runes, and I collected a translation of the rune-poems, which I have somewhere and keep meaning to dig out. With the tarot I've tended to read them intuitively, relating the images to what they trigger (although I've recently lost touch with Tarot, I am very out of practice). The runes never quite worked like that, I've learnt book-meanings over the years but that seems to limit me when I try to interpret them, not that I've done as much as I mean to with them. But this, scying, it seems to me like it might be a good way to go to learn them and understand them on a deep level and a part of me worries that learning the book-work too hard will influence what I gain directly. On the other hand, there is so much information it would be silly to not make use of it and use it as a spring-board for further learning.

I don't think this is an unreasonable use of runes, but given your context, and that it's not quite Galdr, I would estimate that you're mixing runes with Seidh, which is likely to produce fairly interesting, and potentially highly effective results, but definitely won't help you stay away from the attention of otherworldly beings and spirits. - Emberleo

Like I said, I don't mind getting attention (although it does scare me) but I don't want to wave a big red 'I don't really know what I'm doing' flag and annoy beings I might one day have dealings with. It was a very effective feeling session, but, yeah, the payment request seemed to be a reminder that I'm not owed anything and shouldn't expect free favours (I hadn't intended to, in any case, but it certainly brought it home).

I am a bit curious - were you trying to learn more about Laguz, or what? - Emberleo

That wasn't the main objective, but I did think it would be a result. I want to practice the technique so I'm sure of it before I go applying it in areas I'm not sure of.

It felt like I looked into zir world, and ze showed me some of zir essence/meaning (?) I wasn't expecting to talk to someone, I was expecting - if anything happened, which I was doubting - to see images that connected with the meaning. I thought it would be good practice to look for something (which I could hopefully check) but that wouldn't involve asking someone for information - forgot scrying can be a contact method.

I would perhaps label it a form of Spae - Emberleo

How would you define Spae? I've been a little confused between the distinctions between Seidr, Spae, and everthing else. Galdr, as far as I can tell, is more about manipulating the world using runes, a kind of active spell-casting or magician type work?

Perhaps it would be best to write down questions to sigilise that I can then use as a focus. I wonder if words would work as well as a symbol? /musing
 
 
Talas
15:09 / 23.02.08
How would you define Spae? I've been a little confused between the distinctions between Seidr, Spae, and everthing else.

A few definitions, to the best of my knowledge:

Galdr is partially like you say, 'manipulating the world using runes', but specifically through chanting/singing -- think incantation. Though historically galdr didn't have to, mostly today galdr involves singing runes specifically.

Though there's still not a clear line between spae and seidh, most divination, prophecy, foretelling, etc. is generally defined as spae. Seidh seems to me to be a much larger and less defined category, encompassing most of the rest of "women's magic"* -- witchy magic, trance, journeying, spirit work, etc.


* Kind of a misnomer. Seidh was seen as "women's" magic, but you've got mythological and historical reports of men practicing it, including Old One Eye, Ragnvald Rettilbeini, Eyvindr Kelda, and likely others. I'd direct you to Hrafnar, which is one of the few practicing seidh groups: http://www.hrafnar.org/seidh.html
 
 
EmberLeo
07:49 / 25.02.08
*laughs* Okay, I'm in Hrafnar and Seidhjallr. That said, we are far from the only group practicing it, we're just one of the most visible to non-Heathens because Seidhjallr is one of, if not the, oldest group that practices a modern reconstruction of Oracular Seidh. There are now plenty of groups that have learned the Hrafnar/Seidhjallr form of Oracular seidh, as well as other groups that have reconstructed their own versions according to their own needs and perceptions.

By the way, Talas - the site you listed has been mostly moved and expanded to Seidh.org.

Talas has describe my understanding for the most part - Spae is a sub-set of Seidh. Spae refers to the use of Seidh for Oracular purposes, but also, in the more general sense, it refers to Divination - usually via altered conciousness.

Seidh refers to more uses of that kind of trance magic than just Divination. The basic idea is that while Spae is a passive use of Seidh that allows one to view the web of Wyrd, there's no particular reason one cannot, with effort, use the same technique to manipulate that web. We generally don't, if only because a little mistake can go a long way. But as another member of Seidhjallr points out - observing a thing changes it, so at best, Spae is simply more passive than other uses of Seidh.

As for the "woman's magic" argument, I like the observation that the reasoning behind this, and the ambiguity of the term "Ergi", is that men of those cultures were expected to be very up-front about their concerns even to the point of starting fist- or sword-fights with eachother when they dissagreed. A woman without a man to protect her interests was perhaps left to her own devices, and starting a sword fight was clearly not her best option. Since this was known and understood, for a woman to resort to Seidh to solve a problem was not considered untoward. But for a man to do so would be cowardly, womanish - ergi.

The other side of the argument for "ergi" is that the kind of magic that Seidh is requires an openness largely discouraged in men - in the same way being on the receiving end of penetrative sex was discouraged. This manifests in other cultures that have trance magic as well, actually, such that trance magic is for women and gay men only in those contexts. But I'm no expert on the topic. Today we certainly don't expect men to solve problems with swords, first of all, and second of all, we (in Seidhjallr at least) don't have a problem with men - straight or gay - performing Seidh. My boyfriend does, and he's decidedly heterosexual.

And lastly, yes, my understanding is that "Galdr" refers to the kind of magic that involves the voice - but not necessarily only of Runes. Other kinds of vocalized Charms are also Galdr. It's arguable that Seidhjallr's ritual, as well as the ritual described in Eric the Red's Saga, use Galdr to establish the Seidh state. But that depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Most folks are referring to rune chanting when they refer to Galdr.

To bring that back to the gender question - Galdr would be more acceptable for men because it is very overt.

--Ember--
 
 
Haloquin
10:20 / 25.02.08
Thank you both, so so helpful.

I've gotten the strong impression that it is possible to move through and into what you are viewing. I'm using a (black) mirror so that might have something to do with it as when I was younger I always associated mirrors with doors into other places, but the next step to seeing the threads being to manipulate them makes a lot of sense to me. I used to practice weather magic; when it rained I would sing to it and it would stop, I'd ask the wind to blow a different direction and it would - all potentially coincidences but that is beside the point - I stopped because I began to realise that effecting the weather in one area can have a major impact elsewhere, and I didn't want to be responsible for that. So I can understand the principle of not poking wyrd-threads directly!

Ember, do you by any chance know of any reputable Seidr groups in the UK?

Also, is it worth copying this into the Seidr/Trance thread so its easier to find the information later? If no-one objects I'll do it when I get back from Mum's later this week.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:22 / 25.02.08
But those gender issues surely don't carry over into today's heathens do they ? We do not live in a community that looks at those roles in entirely that way any more, so how do modern heathens approach these magical areas with regards to gender?
 
 
EmberLeo
20:15 / 25.02.08
We really should move this conversation to the Seidh thread, I think, but to answer your question...

Heathenism covers a fairly wide spectrum of attitudes, some of which I really, really don't appreciate. So at the one end of the spectrum you have the people who are "folkish" to the point of racism, conservative to the point of petrified gender roles, homophobic, and dissaproving of Seidh in general, oracular or otherwise, much less of men performing "women's work".

At the other end you have folks who not only practice Oracular seidh regardless of gender, orientation, etc. but also practice Posessory magic, don't mind folks being poly-pantheonic, polyamorous, etc. etc.

And then you've got the folks who are a little bit beyond that, who avoid even calling themselves "Heathen" because the other end of the spectrum - and a majority of not that bad but still pretty conservative folks in the middle - don't approve of people honoring Loki outside of His token drink whenever Odin drinks, much less other Jotnar.

So, um, yeah. Heathens are Reconstructionists. Mostly that's useful. Sometimes they reconstruct less useful things than others. Sometimes it's just an excuse to be a jerk when modern society would have told you you're full of shit.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
21:15 / 25.02.08
Haloquin - a friend from Seidhjallr reminded me that the technique you used to scry with Laguz resembles meditations consciously designed and employed by some of the folks around here. Those meditations, at least in her case, resulted in contact with a guide. Her guide turned out to be her dearly departed mother, but I'm sure results varied.

I knew about that meditation method for digging deeper into the runes, but wasn't sure if I'd mentioned it directly to you yet. So yeah, you've stumbled on a variation of a pre-existing method that works quite well for other students of the runes.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:33 / 25.02.08
What caught my attention was that i had not long ago watched a documentary about the architecture of the Nazis, the documentary was produced in the 90's. Now some of the ideas in the documentary were expressing the folk ideas that had gone into the Nazis whom also tried to reconstruct a Teutonic idea.

The host of the documentary made a comparison between modern neo pagans and and the neo paganism of the Nazis, making the comment that in some ways they were the first neo pagans to begin the reconstruction of those particular myths.

The idea of reconstructing or re visioning history into modern times is an interesting process, not without some pitfalls which you express about the more extreme conservative attitudes and overt homophobia and racism.

I wonder to what extent the personal politics of an author is taken into consideration when reconstruction of mythic culture and historical culture takes place, just how much modernism goes into the re visioning of past cultures.

The documentary focused in some parts on how people turn to a mythic view of history to establish a both personal and cultural view of history that goes on to shape there attitudes towards the symbols involved and how that effects the character of their modern expression.

How we make something old become new or viewed from a different perspective by re contextualising its character to fulfil modern political agendas and view points, or we harken back to the past and create a less than realistic image of the past as a kind of escape from modern living.

At what point do our personal mythic structures of what traditions we may feel we belong too become modern? and when does the expression become an escape to try and capture some perfect time or perfect age, to revise or envision what is real here and now.

The very idea of reconstruction is a construction, an adaptation that reflects the time of the narrative created to reconstruct what ever structure we are engaged with creating, it begins to seem like a bit of a misnomer to me, a vain attempt to legitimise a modern construction.

I am not talking about this just in reference to the heathen tradition but in the context of trying to legitimise any tradition, which is often done with a number of factors, the age of said tradition, legitimate source texts etc. sometimes put forward by archaeological reference to some how use the authority of fact and history as if these points of reference do not bear questioning.

It is as if modern pagans some how cant say my paganism is a modern thing relatively new, not very old at all and i am not so much as reconstructing but constructing and creating now for where i am now.

Or is it about escaping into the past? Escape from the modern world.
 
 
*
23:53 / 25.02.08
I think that declaring that one's paganism is a totally new creation free of historical burdens would in many cases constitute an attempt to absolve one of the responsibility of contextualizing one's practice historically. I recently saw a familiar discussion: "Nine million witches died in teh brunin tiems*!" "Um, well, that's probably not accurate..." "What does the number matter anyway; it's symbolically the truth!" Here, the speaker wants hir claims of historicity to be accepted as factual, but when their validity is called into question, it becomes irrelevant. Historicity is only important while it supports the speaker. If it no longer does, the importance of myth provides the desired freedom to make any claim whatever.

I think the problem is not that people make an effort to see their religion as part of a continuity, but rather that people do not make enough of an effort. They start with an ahistorical creation that owes as much to Tolkein as it does to tradition and then work backward, mythologizing a history that would serve to explain their present. Then they call the myth history and link its legitimacy with the legitimacy of their current practice, which forces them to reject any challenge to their version of history as a challenge to their faith. I would ask why pagans are modeling their theology on certain ahistoricizing Christian fundamentalist practices** but... well, I just did, essentially.

So I don't think this is relieved by freeing people of the responsibility of understanding their beliefs in the context of history, but rather of demanding that, wherever possible, people understand their beliefs in the context of history. Myth is vital, and it's even more vital to understand what myth is and what it is not.

*I wasn't going to do this, but then I actually mistyped "burning" and decided to go with it.

**those that lead to comments such as "I don't know why some Christians think Jesus was against the Jews. I've learned that Jesus knew many Jews and even had dinner with some of them once."
 
 
zedoktar
06:48 / 26.02.08
Heres an oddball question for everyone.
A friend of mine with a knack for incredible accidental spiritual adventures (one might consider her a savante)asked me about something she had encountered. Apparently its been seen by others, as reported in a lost Erowid document. I had no idea, but I thought the 'Lith might.
She described it as "like a giant spear (i think it was something of a giant thing, but made of light or some other floaty material that had taken a very solid, deadly shape) that had an eye (or eyes) impaled upon it. And how people point at people to see. and how they line up with the pointer's eye so they can see. and this thing comes at you in a rolling motion."

the correlating encounter "the person described a spear that had an eye impaled and how it was crawling around."

So there you have it. Anyone have a thought as to what it might of been (other than just a common hallucination)?
 
 
EmberLeo
08:27 / 26.02.08
I wonder to what extent the personal politics of an author is taken into consideration when reconstruction of mythic culture and historical culture takes place, just how much modernism goes into the re visioning of past cultures.

It's variable. Around here I find that it does indeed come up, both with modern authors, and with historical authors. Tacitus is accounted for rather differently than Snorri, who is in turn accounted for differently than the Christian scribes who collected various Sagas, all of which are accounted for differently than modern Anthropologists working from the physical remains in archeological sites, etc. etc. Then, also, we account for which of the various cultural groups and periods the information is supposed to apply to. The more scholarly a person chooses to be, the more detailed they'll get.

The net result is that we're aware that the Lore is a foundation to build on, that we tend to use whatever building materials we're comfortable with to fill in the gaps where things do not modernize well (human sacrifice much?) or we simply don't have enough information, and do what we can to create meaningful experiences out of applying the ancient to the modern.

I recently saw a familiar discussion: "Nine million witches died in teh brunin tiems*!" "Um, well, that's probably not accurate..." "What does the number matter anyway; it's symbolically the truth!" Here, the speaker wants hir claims of historicity to be accepted as factual, but when their validity is called into question, it becomes irrelevant.

I would be surprised if that was a Recon Pagan. Few of the Reconstructionists I know are particularly concerned with the treatment of "witches" over the centuries, and most I've met only refer to "the burning times" if they're making the same kind of jokes you folks just did.

They start with an ahistorical creation that owes as much to Tolkein as it does to tradition and then work backward, mythologizing a history that would serve to explain their present.

Um, are you actually clear on what the difference is between Reconstructionist and Non-Reconstructionist Pagans? Because most of your description doesn't sound anything like the kind of Recon Pagans I know. I know quite a few, from at least four major cultural focuses - Kemetic, Hellenic, Heathen, and Celtic, and each group is very interested in the actual mythology, history, and anthropology of the cultures that interest them. While individuals may be poly-trad, they're rarely mix 'n match, and they generally make a point of citing their sources, while making clear what's personal practice and what's based on historical evidence, mythology, etc.

Of course, not all individuals put in the same amount of effort, but then not all practitioners receive the same amount of respect.

"Reconstructionist", in my experience, doesn't mean "Our religion is older than yours", so much as "We are focused on one particular pre-Christian cultural group for our source of religious structure" - whether the culture determined the pantheon or vice versa for any given person is variable.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:28 / 26.02.08
My problem Ember is with the very notion of reconstructing or for that matter re enactment, it seems to me that the how and why attempt to revise the past for the present, if not to make it relevant for the time i am living in.

If that is the aim i am all for it, it re contextualises the present by employing culture or ideas from the past to create relevant meanings for the present, that seems like a great idea. It revitalises a tradition broken or otherwise to new expression and meaning.

What i do not understand is a kind of retreat i sometimes encounter, this need to turn back the clock to a 'golden age' it smacks of another form of escapism or coping device where by somebody could present a front to themselves in order to paint a kind of antiquated perception over there sensory experience. I am not suggesting that the examples you give do so, far from it they present a different picture entirely. The kind of historical hypnotic glaze i am describing i have encountered in some neo pagans that also re enact, a kind of dedicated well researched historical form of live role playing. Where the men get to be warriors and refer to women as wenches. Its the semi mixing point of fantasy and historical claims that comes into question as has been pointed out, and the presentation of a kind of medieval politics where instinct is often alluded too in more barbaric times as an excuse for a culture that seems to me at least, pretty damn abusive.

How selective is the reconstruction process? How do you go about deciding what elements of a cultures history to include in your own practice and how does for example heathen reconstructionism include gay people, what are the roles it assigns to gay people or african people.

To me understanding it as construction or creation makes more sense, i live now, my own practice has to consider where i am now and how i interact with those around me now.
If i create a narrative for myself that isnt inclusive of all the elements that surround me in the world i live in then i risk not honouring or being respectful of those elements through a lack of inclusion of them in how i look at the world. All the cultures that have managed to survive through the use of story, memory,tradition or otherwise and seem to have a healthy relationship to what is here now, are thriving because they have adapted to current times and considered a majority of the issues that contains.

There are still old and new institutions that want to harken back to older times and often those older times bring the politics and cultural precepts of those times with them. I do not see that as a positive thing, which is what concerns me. How does reconstruction include modern adaptation and progression or does its very nature through the use of language imply the opposite?
 
 
*
14:32 / 26.02.08
Ember and all... I'm sorry. I've done what I get quite grouchy at other people for doing, and that's seeing bits and pieces of a discussion and using it as a springboard for my own rant, with little to do with the discussion now in progress. In my defense I was writing a thesis at the time.

Of course I know what Reconstructionist pagans are, and I wasn't referring to them there. I was actually, I thought, defending the idea that Reconstructionism has a valid place in reaction to mainstream pagan/Wiccan ahistoricity, responding to Arioch's comment that I interpreted to mean maybe it would be better if pagans didn't make any effort to connect their practice to a past at all.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:59 / 26.02.08
My main point is how do you reconstruct a past to make it applicable to the times we are living in. I have no objection to how much history is given a present context, but how do you decide which bits are relevant to a modern life and enrich the experience of living now.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:45 / 26.02.08
Arioch: How selective is the reconstruction process? How do you go about deciding what elements of a cultures history to include in your own practice and how does for example heathen reconstructionism include gay people, what are the roles it assigns to gay people or African people.

The short answer is that each group and each individual needs to find the balance that works for them, and there is often a great deal of politics surrounding the differences in answer.

Most kindreds around here are informal in their clothing, semi-formal in their ritual, and closed to members-only by default. Hrafnar is open to whoever shows up, and we're a bit high-church, employing more of the tricks of the ritual trade to make it easier for newcomers to get into things. Diana Paxson, who runs the group, is a scholar of history, and founder of the SCA (amongst other things) - so you can imagine we're more likely to dress in garb for our ceremonies. But not for everyday life, or for casual meetings to discuss Heathen topics. Moreover, Diana has no problem with the way I often dress for Hrafnar, which is probably closer to what you'd expect of a hippie neopagan, rather than an old-fashioned Viking. I don't mind a nice long T-tunic, belted at the waist, but I really don't like hanging skirts.

As for inclusiveness, the groups I spend time in all but ignore racial differences, and mostly ignore sex in favor of gender or chosen role. That is, we accept gays and lesbians, transgendered folks, or even simply tomboys, etc. into whichever roles make them comfortable at any given time. We don't stop the women from learning the "men's roles" or vice versa. But we do acknowledge that gender roles did exist then and do exist now, and sometimes those roles are worked into a ritual, or are the topic of a discussion group - and sometimes I've seen people get very uncomfortable because they assume that because we perceive gender roles, they are required to cram themselves into those boxes. From what I understand, my own local groups have gotten more sensitive to this over time, as problems have come up and been resolved one way or another. As for folks of African heritage... well, we usually just ignore that entirely. Which isn't to say we require them to ignore it - they, and anyone else for that matter, are quite welcome to call on their actual ancestors of the blood as well as their ancestors of the heart and spirit when we are honoring the ancestors - as long as the people being honored A) were human once, and B) are now dead.

Other groups, well... different people and different groups handle things differently, and I don't agree with all of the variations. There are groups and individuals that try to go with petrified gender roles, and expect anyone not obviously Germanic to provide proof they have a right to honor the Aesir. I guess as long as they aren't really hurting anybody there's nothing to be done about how they make themselves happy - but I vehemently disagree with that end of the spectrum.

WRT Escapism - well, yeah, I'm sure folks do get there. I periodically look at my life and wonder if I've just joined the world's biggest LARP or what, but I've ultimately concluded that if it gets me through life, I accomplish more than I ever did without it, and I'm happy, I'm not sure it matters.

Do you have a problem with escapism in general? Because at this point I think I've seen just about everything turned into an escape, and I'm a little tired of being expected to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If i create a narrative for myself that isn't inclusive of all the elements that surround me in the world i live in then i risk not honoring or being respectful of those elements through a lack of inclusion of them in how i look at the world.

Mmm, for the most part, I think people are drawn to Recon Paganism because they are looking for things that aren't being included in their world. There's a kind of precarious balance, I guess. On the one hand, because the symbol set you're using is more cohesive than a mix 'n' match Eclectic symbol set may be, things are often easier to understand, easier to extrapolate, and feel more whole. But on the other hand one can indeed get caught up trying too hard to live in a culture that isn't about the here/now they actually inhabit.

Personally, I wasn't drawn to Recon paganism because it's historical, and I'm one of the least scholarly Heathens I know (which makes me uncomfortable, but I just don't learn well from reading static, impersonal books). I joined Hrafnar because I fit in socially, and stayed because the Odin hit me with a stick and said "Pay Attention!" - literally.

My main point is how do you reconstruct a past to make it applicable to the times we are living in. I have no objection to how much history is given a present context, but how do you decide which bits are relevant to a modern life and enrich the experience of living now.

That's such an open-ended question, it's hard to answer without sounding wishy-washy. So let me give you an example set:

In ancient times, various Germanic, Aesir-worshipping people regularly sacrificed food animals, and occasionally sacrificed work animals or human beings to their gods. The food animals were, as far as I know, often sacrificed in the context of a feast for the community to share in. Work animals and humans were hanged, strangled, drowned in bogs, or otherwise left entirely for the gods to consume.

Today, a majority of folks in the First World buy things like pasteurized processed cheese food sliced on a what they hope is an all-beef patty from an animal they not only never saw, but don't want to see. That's obviously something of a worst-case scenario. But things are looking up - people are becoming more aware of Organic vegetables, and Free Range meat, etc.

The Heathens I know often take it a step further, as close to the honorable food sacrifice as they can personally manage. Some folks will only eat food they could have acquired directly, and therefore don't eat food that had to be imported from a great distance, or animals too big for them to kill with a knife in hand had it been in front of them. Some Heathens are themselves farmers who raise their animals as best as they are able, giving them clean living and good care, and then, when the time comes to make them food, honoring their spirit, their sacrifice, and our gods, and killing them as quickly and cleanly as possible. Other Heathens aren't in a position to do all that for themselves, but make a point of learning how, and getting hands-on experience with it. Others leave that step to the farmers, but only buy meat that they know was treated well, and make a point of honoring the sacrifice of life that the animal made before becoming our food.

Personally - I try to be mindful, but I'm modern girl and a meat eater, and I know damned well my habits aren't up to standard. I'm working on it, slowly, with a long-term eye on learning how to be responsible for my own meat. I'm a quick study, but I've really only been practicing Heathenism for about 6 years. Yet I keep comparing myself to folks who have been at this for two, three, four times as long as I have. *sigh*

But I don't know anybody who will sacrifice non-food animals, nor who will waste all the food that results from the kill. And we don't strangle people or drown them in bogs any more. There's a ritual called a Blot that, if I understand correctly, traditionally went with this sacrifice, and involved sprinkling blood as a blessing. In modern times, most groups use alcoholic drinks in place of the blood (with the exception of the aforementioned farmers, who actually have a honorable blood option). Some folks do the actual sprinkling. Others take an understanding that the significance of the Blot as a blessing and honor to a god is more important than the mechanism, and replace the sprinkling with taking a drink, invocation, and other less historical replacements. And there are folks who insist that if you change it that much, you must call it a "faining" instead of a "blot".

The linguistic arguments are why I usually skip the special language when I'm in charge, and just announce that we'll "pass a horn in honor of Freya" when the time comes. Hrafnar goes ahead and uses "Blot".

Zippy: I was actually, I thought, defending the idea that Reconstructionism has a valid place in reaction to mainstream pagan/Wiccan ahistoricity, responding to Arioch's comment that I interpreted to mean maybe it would be better if pagans didn't make any effort to connect their practice to a past at all.

Ahh - no worries. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I hope my replies are helpful. They are, of course, limited to my experience, but I think I do have a fair amount of experience in this area nowadays.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
05:38 / 27.02.08
Thanks Ember i have a much clearer understanding. I guess my fears around escapism do more to highlight my own issues in regards to things i tried to hide from myself for a long period of life, so i kind of fear other people doing the same thing (which i am not saying anybody is) as it led me down a very self detructive path. So i am very wary of my own attempts to escape and have only recently in the last 8 years or so to turn and face what needed to be faced so i could resolve some of the fears that led me to try and constantly escape.

I do not think all escapism is unhealthy. It can be insightful and productive, but i seem to notice the people i know socially going into a kind of retreat from the realities they have created for themselves of late. Its kind of frightening to see and recognise your old behaviours in other people.

I think i found the notions in the documentary particularly frightening as well, it sort of expressed how a mythology was being created for a nation in severe economic decline that raised up their mythic culture and de humanised other national characters. It again came across as a hugely self destructive form of escapism, replacing the physically sensate with cultural precepts to the point where people are literally following the ritual and form of the words and symbols and leaving their senses behind.

Its that learning mechanism that seems to get exploited alot of the time, the words and cultural precepts becoming a replacement rather than an enrichment of the sensate world. Strange fears for me to carry around in a way.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:00 / 27.02.08
One of the things my Mom has reinforced to me over the years is that the mechanisms of religion and politics are what they are because they work. It's like a back-door to the brain.

As with any tool, the morality isn't in the tool itself, but in how you choose to use it - in this case, in the content you choose to instill. A lot of traditional spiritual rituals that employ tools like fasting, vigil, drugs, pain, dancing to exhaustion, chanting in groups, etc. etc. - they're using the same techniques voluntarily that, when forced upon the unwilling or unaware, amount to brainwashing.

The same is true for political movements, marching and chanting, singing together - The Pledge of Allegiance anyone? National Anthems? That's not an accident. But it's not innately evil either. The vast majority of humans need to belong to survive, to stay emotionally healthy. As long as what they belong to is... well, is okay... then it's not much of a problem.

I am very careful about what kinds of groups of people I'm willing to sit around chanting or singing or dancing with, much less deliberately enter any kind of deeper trance, not because I think these things are wrong, but because I know that one can be lulled into a sense of belonging, and absorb beliefs one would not otherwise choose.

I would far rather consciously choose these things, indoctrinate myself as a buffer against whatever indoctrination others would inflict on me, than ignore the issue entirely in the hopes that nobody smarter than me ever came along and used it against me when I wasn't paying close enough attention to stop it.

--Ember--
 
 
*
15:03 / 27.02.08
I really love this discussion, and I'd like to see it moved out of the "stupid magick questions" thread into it's own thread so that people can find it more easily, if any moderators can be bothered. Do we have a "merits of reconstruction" thread around here somewhere?
 
 
grant
15:04 / 27.02.08
Make it happen.
 
 
Papess
02:41 / 04.03.08
Dear Gek,

Your thread is locked out and I would really like to ask a favour of you so I am going to do it here. I trust you will find your way.

I will come right out and ask you for what I need - a good paying job with good-natured people, in a company that provides benefits for my family. That is the tall order. the short order is to get regular temp work. I really just want to work. I can't go through this every single month.

Gek, I am also willing to accept large cash prizes that will enable me to pay off debts, buy a home for my family and create a socially-conscience business in which I can work from home to support my family, help my friends and spiritual community, and the community I live in. Eventually, extending my reach to those in need in the rest of my country and the world.

I will not be a small, stepped on person, anymore.

I have worked so very hard on dealing with issues in my past that have held me back and fucked me up so much I couldn't hold down a proper job. Now that I feel ready mentally and emotionally to do this I can't seem to find work.

I have been looking and going to interviews. I have been praying and practicing. I am beginning to lose heart. I really can't do that. So, I am pulling as many "favours" as I can to get this done. Gek, you haven't let me down before. I need some of your special help now. Sinking into a self-pity-party is not an option. My boy needs me to make a good life for him and I.

Tonight, after I put my son to sleep, when I do my regular practice, I will offer up some wafer cookies to you with some tea (as I have no milk). Interestingly, this is similar to the offering ritual I do in the evenings for the Dharmapalas so, you will be in good company.

Also, I will try to contribute something to the Temple of substance in the next few days, and I will be carrying out a major New Moon working to reinforce keeping my spirits up and my mind thinking positively and focused on a better future for us. I can't lose faith, something has got to give. There are many good people who have shown they care and want to help us and I am so grateful for that. However, I need to be able to provide for my son and I and contribute to my community instead of taking from it. There are people less fortunate than I who need assistance.

Thanks Gek. Your cookies are on the way.

*Sets a course for co-ordinates somewhere far from the gravitational pull of the black hole that is widening and threatening to swallow the Mothership. The dilithium crystals are in place - Engage!*
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:34 / 05.03.08
I have recently seen a graphic of the symbol of Venus containing the 10 sephirah of the tree of life, six in the circle and four in the cross, note of connection made to the ankh symbol became apparent if only through sympathetic form rather than cultural indication.

I wonder if anybody can elucidate as to the origin of this diagram, how modern? or if their is any historical validity to the idea.

I could postulate on the connection between Venus and fertility or abundant life and the crux anasata as a symbol of the resurrection and the general meaning of the ankh symbol, but id like a little more weight than a patch work correspondence, anybody ?
 
 
Haloquin
11:31 / 05.03.08
I've seen it in Alan Moore's Promethea but I couldn't tell you if it was any older. Was that where you saw it?
 
  

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