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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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EvskiG
14:07 / 13.02.08
If I understand it correctly, in Jungian psychology the Anima/Animus is an archetype of the collective unconscious that serves as a mediator between one's conscious mind and one's (collective and individual) unconscious mind.

It's not really a thing in itself (like a brick or the cerebellum), but a function, a part of the mind that sometimes manifests to the conscious mind (for example, in dreams) in the form of a person of the opposite gender. This form is shaped by what's in your conscious mind, your personal unconscious, and your collective unconscious, so it can manifest as a mythical or magical figure or someone from your life or popular culture who you see as having the necessary attributes.

Again, if I understand it correctly, Jung uses the term Shadow in a few different ways, including as an unconscious dumping ground for aspects of personality that a person doesn't like attributing to him- or herself, and that he or she eventually should try to understand and/or integrate into the conscious self to achieve individuation, and (later, in his writings on Christianity) as an archetypal figure of absolute evil in the collective unconscious. The way the Shadow appears in dreams is shaped by personal and cultural factors, but it often appears as a dark figure, often of a different race or culture than the dreamer, and usually as a stranger.

A good book on all of this, by the way, is A Guided Tour of the Collected Works of C.G. Jung (searchable online).

By the way, if I could editorialize for a moment, I strongly recommend that magical practitioners leave off working with the "night side of the tree," demons, and other stereotypically nasty beasties until they Genuinely Get Their Shit Together. At least for the most part.

I've never really understood the appeal of that sort of thing, but as Uncle Howard said, "Do not call up that which you cannot put down."
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:39 / 13.02.08
Ah, Well i have been off today recording the shadows of trees and fallen trees to go with other natural shadows for a film idea.

I think your probably right about night side workings, i would not attempt them right now in any serious ceremonial way or via altar work, i couldn't take it at present and it really would not be a good idea.

What i have been doing is using names as mantras, along with tones of voice and experimenting with pronunciations with an emphasis on various parts of names and also looking at theories of origins to names for example Lilith is said to have some origin with the Sumerian phrase LYL.

I have added the book to my wishlist, i will get around to it eventually. What do you make of the work of Joseph Campbell and his presentation of Jungs ideas?
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
17:38 / 13.02.08
To expand a bit on what grant and Ev have said:

Arioch: Ah! My stupid question, do the anima and shadow in jungian psychology adopt and wear myths? and if they do are these cultural (collective) as well as personal?

Short answer: yes.

"Jung distinguishes between two different forms of the shadow, although he uses the same term for both. The first form is that of the 'personal shadow,' containing psychic features of the individual which are unlived from the beginning of his life or only scarcely lived. The second is the 'collective shadow'. It belongs together with the other figures of the collective unconscious and corresponds to a negative expression of the 'Old Wise Man' or the dark aspect of the Self. It symbolizes, as it were, the 'back' of the prevailing Zeitgeist, its hidden antithesis. Both forms of the shadow are operative in the human psyche.
"Whether the manifestation is of a personal or collective nature depends on whether the shadow pertains to the realm of the ego and the personal unconscious or to that of the collective unconscious. Thus it may appear to us as a figure from our sphere of consciousness, as our elder brother or sister, our best friend, or, for example, as that person who represents our opposite, such as Faust's famulus, Wagner, or--when the projected contents spring from the collective unconscious--it may appear in mythical form, for example, as Mephistopheles, a faun, Hagen, Loki, etc." (Jacobi 111-112)

Jacobi also notes that the anima "can equally well take the form of a sweet young maiden, a goddess, a witch, an angel, a demon, a beggar woman, a whore, a devoted companion, an amazon, etc" (116).

And, about your dream, Arioch...

The demons were defending the child in me in my waking vision/dream

Interesting. So who are these 'enemies' that beset the child?

The idea of Saturn at the centre comes from a theory of saturn being the night sun, or the centre of the night sky and refers to the cosmology of sumerian and other cultures.

Saturn would also correspond to the "negative expression of the 'Old Wise Man' or the dark aspect of the Self" mentioned by Jacobi.

they [angels and demons?] appear to only want to protect the child within me from its enemys. As if both the shadow and the anima are united in protecting me.

You seem to be identifying yourself implicitly with your inner child, or the child-self in your dream.

I think the trauma from my childhood has my mind locked into a childhood state where by i still have a very clear imagination like a child, i can literally immerse myself into a world where card board boxes are a steam train as i did when i was a child.

The challenge now is not to use that as a crutch or coping mechanism and learn to employ the talents it has given me to forge ahead. Making the internal convergence an external one, giving it release.


Indeed. The inner child's power of imagination must be channeled into some form of creative work in the world, or else you'll end up drowned in the constant flood of fantasy pouring out from the unconscious. So it's probably good that you're making art.

Aside from all that, I don't know what to make of the other aspects of your dream, as Qabalah is not my forte. Jung wrote about mandala symbolism though, and how sometimes diagrams like the Tree of Life in your dream might be a symbolic representation of the structure and dynamics of your psyche. What might the Qabalistic symbolism in your dream say about you and where you are at on your path?

Ev: By the way, if I could editorialize for a moment, I strongly recommend that magical practitioners leave off working with the "night side of the tree," demons, and other stereotypically nasty beasties until they Genuinely Get Their Shit Together. At least for the most part.

I think Jung would agree. Despite the fact that he considered the integration of the shadow to be the single most fundamental task in the process of individuation, he also warned that this process should not be begun until the individual has developed a strong, healthy ego structure and completed the tasks of the first half of life, in other words developing a successful career, finding a long-term partner and maybe starting a family, etc. In other words, yeah, getting your shit together. Although there might be exceptions to this rule.

Arioch: I have added the book to my wishlist, i will get around to it eventually. What do you make of the work of Joseph Campbell and his presentation of Jungs ideas?

In my opinion, Campbell focuses too much on the hero myth. As I see it, the hero myth is only one archetypal pattern among many. His work is interesting in its own right, but if you want to understand Jung, I would just go ahead and read Jung, and maybe some of his personal students like Marie-Louise von Franz. In addition to the book Ev recommended, I would definitely add The Psychology of C.G. Jung by Jolande Jacobi, which I have quoted here. Jacobi was another personal student of Jung's. But the single best introduction to Jung's life and work is his "autobiography," Memories, Dreams, Reflections.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:54 / 14.02.08
The enemies are figures that i currently socialise with that represent negative qualities and relationships to my mind.

One in particular whom i percieve to be abusive towards his children and knowingly so in his choice of relationship.

I associate alot of my own qualities with saturn, of the 7 spaces on my altar structure reigned over by a red rose, saturn has more representation than any other, the items i use for representation are all functional so they also play a part in my daily life, so for example with saturn - dark sun glasses, my watch, a quartz crystal skull piece of jewellery, a dragon bracelet. With venus its aftershave, Mars a small pocket knife and my house keys, mercury my mobile phone and a favourite pen, Jupiter my wallet and two rings, the sun a gold bracelet, the moon a quartz crystal egg.

I strongly identify with my inner child, alot of the other parts of me are more like coping mechanisms, survival strategies, ways of dealing with factors and situations.

I think the qabalistic symbolism is pointing towards the hostility i feel towards love, when the child in me is most vulnerable (venus and mars) the leaping point of the theory i read, the saturn theory, became a more emotional topic in the dream.
 
 
Elduderino
10:21 / 14.02.08
Anyone got any suggestions of particular types of incense to be burnt for evocation and trance/possesion with previous (regressed) incarnations of myself?
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:00 / 14.02.08
Something has just come to my mind about these ideas of dayside and nightside, it seemed the most balanced idea i could locate consigning neither one side or the other to either seem more honourable, more dangerous or less important.

It was written in a book that i read on kiumbanda, the writer was basically saying that if you work with the left hand you should work with the right hand at the same time, ignoring neither view point and integrating both simultaneously.

Much like the old grimoires that approach both working with angels and demons, except without taking 'sides' in the matter, the same could be said between that struggle between science and religions accepting both as view points and integrating the two, neither raising one above the other or denigrating either.

The idea that having ones shit together involves having a partner and a family is a little dated to say the least, at a personal level i agree being together inside is important, but external social factors that were once of import, no longer are, an individual can still be a productive member of the community without engaging in family life or having a partner. The career part i agree with thou i would say an active positive role in the greater community is more important.

It just seems to me that working exclusively with one hand and not the other at the same time is a little too unbalanced for me.

So for example while working with Lilith it would also be recommended to work with the idea of Sophia or eve, Integrate these ideas rather than Christianise or demonise one set or the other. Day and night then become mutually integrated neither seeming to become problematic in the face of the other, cooperation as opposed to conflict.

Similar to the art card in the thoth tarot. The mixing of opposites.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:37 / 14.02.08
Or to coin a well worn phrase:

"36. Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."

37. Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."

38. I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!

39. Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!

40. My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.

41. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher."

Liber Tzaddi, Mr C.

The simplicity of that gets problematised when you try to unpack what you actually take the terms "Angel" and "Demon", "glittering image" and "darkly splendid world" to mean.
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
16:37 / 15.02.08
Arioch: Your close identification with both your inner child and with Saturn reminds me of James Hillman's essay "Puer and Senex" in which he describes the relationship between the two archetypes. You might find the essay interesting; it's in his book Puer Papers, now sadly out of print. Hillman quotes a particularly tasty invocation of Saturn from the Picatrix.

The idea that having ones shit together involves having a partner and a family is a little dated to say the least, at a personal level i agree being together inside is important, but external social factors that were once of import, no longer are, an individual can still be a productive member of the community without engaging in family life or having a partner. The career part i agree with thou i would say an active positive role in the greater community is more important.

Well yes, Jung's standards of 'having one's shit together' are certainly at least partially a product of early 20th century Swiss culture. Some people are just bachelors or bachelorettes by nature; likewise some couples can be perfectly happy and self-actualized without kids. On the other hand, marriage and parenting aren't just empty social conventions. Being in a long-term, committed relationship with another person can be an incredibly psychospiritually transformative process, in which one learns to accept a certain level of responsibility and put another's needs before one's own (at least some of the time). Like an authentic religious practice, it relativizes the ego. The same is true of having kids, if you're a good parent. And yeah, 'career' might not be the best word either; it's really about finding some kind of meaningful, satisfying work that puts food on your table and makes a positive contribution to your community. In essence, I think Jung's concept of 'the tasks of the first half of life' really boils down to developing a basic capability to 1) support yourself, and your family if that is your situation and 2) accept a certain level of responsibility and maturity. In other words, being an adult.

The big caveat to all this is that every Jungian psychologist I've talked to has told me that people are beginning the individuation process earlier and earlier. Marie-Louise von Franz has suggested that because of the increasing mechanization of society, the decline of authentic community and relationships, etc--basically people are being forced to compensate by dealing with the essential spiritual problems much earlier in their lives than they would have in the past.

What I wonder about, personally, is the place of 'shadow work' if you will in the process of 'getting your shit together.' For example, conjuring a Goetic demon in order to put food on your family's table, or to curse the corrupt government official who's stealing your village's food crops. My feeling is that in this kind of situation, 'working with both hands' is indeed appropriate.

Gypsy Lantern: [from Liber Tzaddi] 41. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher."

From a Jungian perspective, this would mean that a more angelic individual needs to focus on integrating his or her 'demonic' shadow. But what of the demonic fellow? Interestingly, his shadow might be more angelic than demonic. Von Franz for example commented that in working with criminals and others who view themselves as evil or bad people, the 'shadow' figure appearing in dreams is rather a nice, helpful, 'good' type of person. Most of us though would fall somewhere in the middle, with both our egos and our shadows having some positive and some negative traits. Even a particularly demonic shadow might possess certain vital qualities such as force, vigor, creative energy, etc. that one would do well to integrate.
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
16:42 / 15.02.08
Alright, now it's my turn to ask a 'stupid' question. I had a dream last night in which my cat was hit by a car and injured. I'm fairly certain this has to do with the fact that we've started letting her outside again recently (the rainy season having subsided) and my anxiety about her safety, rather than the cat representing a part of my self or anything like that. Since I have comparatively little experience with practical magic, could anyone suggest a way to protect my cat? Perhaps an amulet for her collar, or... anything, really. Thanks.
 
 
electric monk
16:54 / 15.02.08
Does she have to go outside?
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
17:23 / 15.02.08
Totally a valid point. No, she doesn't. In fact, we'd been keeping her in lately after she was bit in the ass (literally) by a neighbor cat last autumn. But she seems to get depressed when we keep her inside all the time, so it's kind of a difficult trade-off between happiness and safety.
 
 
*
17:39 / 15.02.08
I had a vision this morning of a cat on a leash peaceably enjoying a morning walk, long before I read your post, CB.

Dunno if it was a suggestion or a warning. But it must Mean Something!

Could you try an ultrasound collar/invisible fence combo that would confine her to the immediate yard?
 
 
electric monk
17:46 / 15.02.08
CB, is it maybe a desire to hunt (I'm assuming the cat's been "fixed" and isn't looking for sex.)? If that's likely, then try hiding some catnip toys around the house for the cat to "hunt down". You might also consider hiding little bowls of food around the house for the cat to find. I've been told these things can help cats get that hunting buzz that they might not normally get. I've not tried them with our cats, TBH.

On preview: A leash might be a good idea! Unless the cat thinks it's a toy.
 
 
*
18:06 / 15.02.08
Cats think everything's a toy. And they're right.
 
 
EvskiG
18:17 / 15.02.08
Since I have comparatively little experience with practical magic, could anyone suggest a way to protect my cat?

Does she have to go outside?

Could you try an ultrasound collar/invisible fence combo that would confine her to the immediate yard?

try hiding some catnip toys around the house for the cat to "hunt down". You might also consider hiding little bowls of food around the house for the cat to find.

A leash might be a good idea!


Here's an interesting question: were those suggestions "magical" solutions?

More or less so than an amulet?
 
 
Haloquin
16:28 / 17.02.08
Thats something I've noticed with cats that have been outdoor cats... they get miserable if you then don't let them out. Indoor cats don't seem to miss it and, in my experience, get really nervous if they do get outside.

But, yeah, I'd be gutted if someone stopped me leaving the building, no matter how big it was!

I like Ev's question. I think the answer depends on which definition of magic you are using... if you include 'apparently not by methods currently accepted by science' in your def, then no. A chunk of magic is headology (imo) so maybe its leaning towards magical...

If you think of magic as purely psychosomatic, or as 'change directed by will', then yeah, why not.

Um, magico-religiously, have you thought about asking Bast? When I mentioned asking her for help someone said that its apparently quite common for Cat-lovers to call on Bast, even if they aren't Kemetically-orientated. She didn't seem to mind when I approached her (and tbh I she's still someone I think of. I wonder if perhaps all cats connect to Bast, regardless of their human's associations? And then there is the question of what/who Bast is nowadays...)
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
22:56 / 17.02.08
Well, thank you all for your suggestions. I've kept the cat inside since that dream, but I'm aiming to work out some kind of compromise. An ultrasound fence would be ideal, but I'm not sure if that's really feasible for us at this point. I might just go ahead and train her to walk on a leash so I can take her for little walks around the neighborhood, or even tie the leash to a post in the yard while I'm out gardening and such. She might be okay with that. She is fixed, and she has plenty of cat toys and enjoys playing--I think it's really the fresh air, sunlight, and physical contact with plants and dirt that she's missing. When I do let her out, she rolls around on the ground in utter bliss.

Ev: Here's an interesting question: were those suggestions "magical" solutions? More or less so than an amulet?

Has there ever been a really thorough discussion here in the past about what magic is? By Crowley's definition, the answer to your question would be yes. But by the definitions used in anthropology or religious studies, no, not really. This would be an interesting conversation to have though, I suppose. Not necessarily if it was just everyone going around and saying 'what does magic mean to you,' but more an inquiry into what magic really is... hmm. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm quite able to express what exactly I mean by this, yet.

Haloquin: Thats something I've noticed with cats that have been outdoor cats... they get miserable if you then don't let them out. Indoor cats don't seem to miss it and, in my experience, get really nervous if they do get outside.

Ditto that. Our cat grew up in the redwood forest, so she's a bit of a tree-hugging dirt worshipper.

Um, magico-religiously, have you thought about asking Bast?

I've never been particularly drawn to the Egyptian gods, except for a strange mushroom-vision contact with Nuit.... and the time I visited the BM. Of course as a cat person, Bast has always been in the back of my mind, sort of. Maybe I'll do some research on Her... and my current faculty advisor is a Kemetic priest, so I could ask him about his experiences as well.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:25 / 18.02.08
Here's a question: Is Bast actually a protector of cats? I've never been too sure about whether that has any historical basis in what we know about ancient Egyptian belief, or if it is a modern neo-pagan interpretation that has just stuck? Bast is represented as a woman with the head of a cat, but does that mean she is the protector of all cats, or is it more that the image of the cat expresses something of her essential nature as a Goddess associated with home and hearth?

Aren't there historical accounts of cats actually being sacrificed to Bast as an offering, in return for the granting of a specific boon? That would seem at odds with the modern slightly "Gaiman-esque" interpretation of her as protector of the kittens. Do we also consider Horus the protector of all hawks, or Sekhmet the protector of lions, or Thoth the protector of Ibises, or Anubis the protector of jackals in quite the same way that we tend to unquestioningly consider Bast as the protector of cats?

It seems to me that these other animal associations tend to be more about qualities of the deity, rather than patronage of the welfare of the specific animals. For instance, it would seem a bit weird for a dog lover to go about making offerings to Anubis to ensure the safety of their cocker spaniel - but that same logic is freely applied in modern neo-pagan ideas about the nature and role of Bast.

Does anyone have any insights into this? It's something that's nagged at me for ages.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:18 / 18.02.08
It's an interesting question. The idea that "the ancient Egyptians" (oh what a problematic phrase that is) venerated cats and that Bast is a protector of kitties has emotive appeal, but I don't know how kosher it really is. I've got vague memories of this stuff originating with Herodotus..?

I was gonna say Frejya, predicatbly enough. There's nothing in lore that I'm aware of to support Her role as a protector of felines beyond the fact that She employs two of them as draught-beasts, but some heathens relate personal anecdotes of successfully praying to Freyja for the well-being of a feline companion.
 
 
ghadis
11:02 / 18.02.08
The thing about Bast is that the common representation of her as a cat headed deity is really quite late in egyptian history. You don't see her in this way until around 1000BCE. Before that she was always depicted with the head of a lioness and so had a far more fierce form akin to Sekhmet. She's also a pretty old goddess with mentions in the Pyramid Texts around 2500BCE and so obviously part of an oral tradition that spans back much further than that. Whilst she was mostly depicted as fierce there were some mentions of her motherly nature though, she was shown as being the mother and nurse of Re in one section. Lionesses also have this motherly nature of course but one wouldn't want to get too close whilst it's going on.

From around 1000BCE and into the late period and Graeco/Roman periods Bast started to rise in popularity and become one of, if not the, most prominant gods in her area of the eastern delta. I think this accounts for the change in her from the more fierce, remote lioness to the more approachable cat. To become the most worshipped she had to tone down her fierce qualities (although they are still there at times of course) and become touchable, strokeable and bring out the motherly qualities. It was during the height of her cult that Herodotus came to visit, as you say TTS, and reported on the festival of Bast, the most elaborate in all Egypt as he said. I seem to remember that he equated Bast with Artemis.

I think you're quite right in the doubting of Bast as a 'protector' of cats. I don't think her followers thought of her in that way at all.
 
 
ghadis
11:36 / 18.02.08
Aren't there historical accounts of cats actually being sacrificed to Bast as an offering, in return for the granting of a specific boon?

Indeed, this was a common practice. Large numbers of animals were often kept near temples for this purpose. A devotee would, in a sense, adopt a cat from the temple either during a festival or for a private purpose and once the animal had been sacrificed they would then 'sponsor' it's mummification and burial, adding their own message, as a votive offering.

It's from this practice that we find huge necropolises of mummified cats, snakes, falcons, crocodiles, ibises and other animals next to temples.

Of course, cats differ in many ways from a lot of the other animals in these places in that they would also have been kept as pets in order to keep the rats and other vermin under control.
 
 
Papess
11:39 / 18.02.08
Artemis? In what respect?

Herodotus is not exactly the most reliable source.
 
 
ghadis
12:28 / 18.02.08
Herodotus is not exactly the most reliable source.

No, of course not, but he was pretty influencial and if we're looking at the history and development of certain ideas it would be foolish to overlook him.

As to him equating Bast with Artemis i don't really know why to be honest. He says (in my transtlation anyway)...

The Egyptians do not hold a single solemn assembly, but several in the course of the year. Of these the chief, which is better attended than any other, is held in the city of Bubastis in honour of Artemis to which an editors note points out Herodotus' connection between Artemis and Bast.

I seem to remember from somewhere that this was to do with Artemis ability to turn into a cat but i can't remember where i read that and i really know very little about Artemis. Is that part of her mythology?

The other possibility i guess is that Herodotus is just writing up an Artemis festival which is possible of course due to the large number of Greeks living in Egypt at the time and also the level of syncretisation going on in 5th century BCE Egypt. But that doesn't explain his writing it up as the largest egyptian festival of the time. Plus, of course, he gives Greek names to all the Egyptian deities throughout his Histories.
 
 
ghadis
12:46 / 18.02.08
The wikipedia entry for Bast mentions that the Greeks sometimes called Bast, Ailuros, which is greek for cat and also thought of her as a version of Artemis but doesn't really go into much detail as to why. It also mentions her appearing as a cat-headed lady during the Midlle Kingdom which is much earlier than i'd thought. Theres not a great amount of references for this though. It is wikipedia after all.

Maybe going a bit off topic with this though.
 
 
Haloquin
13:08 / 18.02.08
or if it is a modern neo-pagan interpretation that has just stuck? ~ Gypsy Lantern

Oh, I have strong suspicions that this is the case. When I started out contacting her I was of the 'all gods are one god' crew, but it seemed to work. Now I've changed my opinion, given personal experience and more research, I think of deities as individuals (for the most part) and am trying to avoid being too mix-n-match in my approach. But, what I thought of as Bast, and seems happy enough to go by that name and the image I associate with it, still seems approachable. And definitely seems happy to look after kitties.

I suspect that what many people call Bast bears very little resemblence to the original ancient Egyptian Bast. I don't know if this is her evolving, or us being Gaimanesque and applying an old name to something different, or looking only at one face of someone huge.

Either way, it seems to work for me.

Perhaps Bast is a good choice for precisely her fierce-protective and nurturing-motherly combination, rather than her feline visage - if your kitty is family, and she looks after family, then presumably she'd look after your kitty-family too. Lots of "if"s, there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:33 / 18.02.08
I just find that the way the perception of deities changes over time and is often affected by one or two sources really fascinating. Studying your deity, really trying to learn how Ze might have been percived and interacted with by worshippers from Hir original culture, is so rewarding. It's fascinating in itself and also a powerful devotional act.
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
15:48 / 18.02.08
This website (about Bast) is maintained by a Kemetic practitioner, but seems to have really solid historical research and some good myth-busting:

http://www.per-bast.org/bast/historical.html

Quoted from the above:

"Myth: goddess of cats

This is not so much a myth as a blanket definition that falls short of the mark. While Bast is associated with cats of several types, calling Her simply the protector of cats and cat owners is not reflective of Her totality. It is remarkable to see endless references to Bast as the goddess of cats, and yet very few to Heru [GR: Horus] as the god of hawks, Khnum as the god of rams, or Hethert [GR: Hathor] as the goddess of cows and the milkmaids who love them.

While the cat was determined to be the most popular expression of Bast in antiquity, to simply narrow Her down into a rattle-shaking kitten herder is missing the point."

And regarding Bast's association with Artemis, this section seems relevant:

"Bast: sex, Artemis, and Herodotus"

http://www.per-bast.org/bast/essay10.html
 
 
Haloquin
17:19 / 18.02.08
While the cat was determined to be the most popular expression of Bast in antiquity, to simply narrow Her down into a rattle-shaking kitten herder is missing the point. - Cat

I can see this. Just to be clear, if Bast was someone I worked with regularly I would have done much more delving into her background... as it is, she does still seem to be happy to take the role of Cat-Lady, and doesn't seem bothered by my interaction with her being as limited as that (not that I think of her as a kitty herder really - more a protective deity that likes/ cats and is strongly connected with them). I'm not claiming thats all she is about, and hope I didn't say anything that might imply that. (/defencive mode) I do sometimes wonder if what I call Bast does have any relation to Ancient Bast though, as I think I said up-thread.

On a side-note, she does feel to me to be more any-feline than house-cat...

Does this call for a move to thread about the nature of Gods and/or their growth/change/adoption over time?
 
 
Cat Black (The Wizard's Hat)
20:19 / 18.02.08
Just to be clear, Haloquin, my quote-gun was not aimed at you.

And I suspect that gods grow and change over time just as much as anyone else, especially in the ways that they reveal themselves to their devotees.
 
 
Papess
23:16 / 18.02.08
So, the Greeks didn't have anyone to adequately "equate" within their own pantheon to Bast. Thus, it was somehow decided to match some of Her prominent attributes to Artemis (hmm, hunting, sisterhood...) and shoehorn any other incongruent characteristics. If they just wouldn't fit, then they just changed them, (solar to lunar). Niiice.

I think there is some confusion about the "protection" of cats. Cats are sacred to Her and it is more like She would rule over them. She may decide to protect, but just as easily decide that She wants to take their lives. She owns them. They are like Her children, from Her and of Her, and we know that cats do partake of infanticide. At least, that is how I understand it.

With the solar and lunar associations, and the lion turned cat - is this related to Sekhmet? I thought these were two very separate Goddesses. May be I am misunderstanding.

And I suspect that gods grow and change over time just as much as anyone else, especially in the ways that they reveal themselves to their devotees.

That is a very good point.
 
 
Sekhmet
01:14 / 19.02.08
Trying to figure out the precise relationships between Egyptian deities is a frustrating, and some might even say futile, pursuit. They had different aspects and attributes, different names, competing origin stories, and different rites observed in different territories or cities or during different time periods.

Of course, the same could be said of the Greek gods, which makes their habit of shoehorning other people's deities willy-nilly into their own theology marginally less dubious... but only marginally.
 
 
Sekhmet
01:23 / 19.02.08
Er, to be less vague: sources are going to differ on whether Bast and Sekhmet are aspects of the same deity, totally separate deities, sisters, or if one gave rise to the other over time. The most common interpretation seems to be that they are both daughters of Ra, his "eyes" - which feeds into the idea of Bast being the "lunar" and Sekhmet the "Solar" aspects, if the "eyes" of Ra are considered to be the moon and sun respectively.

That's really just a fun, handy distillation of a far more convoluted and complex theology, though. Hella YMMV.
 
 
matthew.
04:18 / 19.02.08
Here's a dumb question for you folks.

I'm thinking of going on a traditional vision quest this summer. By traditional, I mean the Lakota tradition: me, some water, a medicine bag, and a place to sit in the wilderness for a couple days. I'm mentally and physically preparing myself for this by researching and by exercising.

I've decided to not try and record or preserve anything that happens as the act of recording may affect the vision quest itself.

Really, I'm looking for advice. What do you think I should do? I won't be doing this for months, so I've got lots of time to prepare or change.
 
 
delta
05:37 / 19.02.08
This is a potentially very stupid question aimed only at fulfilling a kind of weird academic curiosity, but here goes... In the very beginning of the book of Genesis, light comes into being, and is pared away fom darkness.

Question 1: Angels are often assigned attributes of creation, as in the pantheons of gods from other belief systems. Is there any internal (be it Jewish or Christian) grounding for this behaviour?

Question 2: There is some shonkiness about the use of the Latin term 'Lucifer' as Light Bringer (Son of Dawn in the original Hebrew), and the potential for it to actually be a sly reference to Babylonian Ishtar, but if you're going with the whole Lucifer=Satan equation, and if we're taking the first point as valid, is there scope for this to technically make The (Angel Yet To Become Known As The) Prince Of Our World the second Angel to exist after Metatron?

Question 3: If we do accept the above as true, that first burst of light goes on to cause all manner of mischief, but the corresponding part (i.e. the darkness from which all light is separated) then proceeds to vanish without a trace, and is never mentioned again. Or is it?

Questions 4 through 7: Does this reveal something interesting about the way the Judaeo-Christian belief system handles darkness (as an absence, possibly reflecting the lack of a feminine cthonic aspect), the potential for some kind of frankly Constantine-esque sub-plot you would need a crash course in Aramaic to understand, my lack of biblical knowledge, or all three?

Any theories, expansions of the query, or even explanations gratefully received.
 
 
zedoktar
06:04 / 19.02.08
Had a random idea walking home under that big luscious moon tonight.
So the moon is becoming very pregnant, so to speak, yeah? And when one wanks off magically, it generates a magical child, right?
So I though, hey, what if one were to "impregnate" the New Moon thusly. Then come Full Moon, hey presto! magic is born. I think it probably has some excellent potential for serious mojo, and may even be old hat. Of course, La Lune might not appreciate being used like a magical puppy mill.
In any case, I thought the assorted brains and organs in jars that populate the 'lith might also like to experiment with the idea, or have some insight.
Or maybe I'm just drunk on the shining moon.
Cheers, all!
 
  

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