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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

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22:46 / 05.06.08

Mordant said a lot of what I would say.

Stories like the White Room and such that you describe I always assumed referred to a third reality. The "Astral Plane" if you will.

At this point in my own work, I perceive that there are at least four realities. Concrete Physical Reality (Body), Internal Mental/Emotional Reality (Psyche), Near Spirit/Magic Reality (Astral), and Mythic Reality (Otherworlds). (Dreams are usually in Psyche, but can go wandering in Astral or Otherworlds.)

Sorry, make that 5 - nowadays there's also Virtual Reality (Intarwebs).

So I understand Invocation, Summoning, whatever, is designed to pull a touch point between two or more of those worlds. Which kind of result you get depends entirely on which worlds you pulled together. You may not be pulling the same two you think you are - especially if you aren't conscious of there being a difference.

Lacking direct experience, I would presume the White Room was either a significant symbol in the Psyche, or a place in the Astral. Both of these are plenty real enough in context, and intangible out of context.

I'm not positive this interpretation is correct, is just the best I've been able to conclude from the things I've experienced myself, and been taught by people whose judgment and intelligence I trust. Working models are fun to construct, and useful to have, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I believe in my working models - I assume my models cannot truly reflect the Universe accurately because I'm bound to be unnecessarily complex and inaccurately reductionist about something about something profoundly simple and infinitely detailed.

--Ember--

23:40 / 05.06.08

I am, within the period of the next month or two, preparing, charging and launching a sigil.

It's my first, so any advisory comments on what to avoid, ensure, and otherwise generally DO (other than the usual algorithm of "intent-creation-charging-launch) would be greatly appreciated.

09:16 / 06.06.08

Put your creativity into it. Don't be restricted by what you have read in a book or on the internet about sigils. Make it your own. Let it live and breathe. Be aware that the "sigil method" as you may have encountered it in chaos magic is something of a third-hand, somewhat dumbed-down version of the way that idea was formulated by Austin Spare. The whole idea of sigils was originally entirely rooted in creativity and automatic drawing. But bizarrely, it's almost become this text book formula for magic. As you put it: "the usual algorithm of "intent-creation-charging-launch". Be aware that this is not the only formula that magic works from. Don't be afraid to experiment, don't be afraid to make mistakes and learn from them, don't be afraid to get it wrong a few times before you hit on something that works for you.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:16 / 06.06.08

Werl, back when I was using these things regularly my most common errors were:

1) Overloading the statement of intent with too much complexity. Keep it very simple. Really think about what you want, and pare it all down to a single short phrase.

1b) You are not living in an MR James story. Darque Forces are not hovering over your sigil looking for legal loopholes through which to screw you over. It's okay just to state what you need without having to hedge everything around with harm-it-none clauses.

2) Obsessing over the spell once it's cast. Once your sigil is charged, you need to let go of it, let it slip from your conscious mind. Don't obsess frantically about banishing it from your thoughts--if the memory pops back, give it a smile and let it go again. However, if this is something you won't realistically be able to get out of your head, the usual fire-and-forget techniques don't seem to work as well. You might get on better with a daily working, like writing out your statement of intent or drawing your sigil 15 times a day (I have had variable results with this one--it works, but you need to stick at it).

3) Don't sigilise for stuff you're not prepared to work towards. Sigils, like all magic, will only work if you're ready to recieve the result. If you want good grades, study. If you want a new job, you will need to punt out applications. If you want a new squeeze, you need to get out and meet people. By all means apply magic to the issue as well, but don't just fire off a sigil and go down the pub.

4) Finally, consider whether this is really the best technique for the job at hand. Sigils are not the only game in town. By all means experiment and see if a sigil working will get you what you want, but look at other possible techniques as well.

10:10 / 06.06.08

Though this is not specific to Sigils, I would add to Mordant's "Keep it Simple" suggestion, to follow your thread of thought on what you need down to its logical conclusion, and then ask for THAT.

... I'm trying to come up with an example.

Hmm. "I want this interviewer to like me" becomes "I want them to give me this job" becomes "I want a job offer from this company" becomes "I want a job just like this" becomes "I want a job that fulfills my need for resources and satisfying work".

Others have disagreed with me, and I must say there's nothing wrong with focusing on specific examples of what you want as long as you keep it simple. But I find I have more success when I leave the door open for other solutions. What if the job I'm asking for isn't what I think it is and some other job would actually be better? If I push for THIS job, I may not get what I need. If I push for a job that fulfills XYZ needs, though, I may not get this job, but I'll get what I need, which is much more important.

Does that make sense?

--Ember--

11:37 / 06.06.08

What you're writing resonates in my mind with the Abraham-Hicks manifestation method, Ember. They teach that in order to manifest the thing which is wanted, what's necessary is to allow oneself to feel what it would be like to already have that thing - a Law of Attraction spinoff, essentially. I think it has benefit as a way of moving towards the core of the problem which is under consideration, in a similar way to your suggestions, if I am understanding correctly.

For me the use of that method resolves towards a very useful test for whether my suffering is being caused by a problem within me (often!) rather than a problem with the external reality. It's definitely one of the strategies I applied to stuff which bothers me. I'm not sure it's much more than a denial procedure though when applied to larger problems like famine, war, lack of clean water, environmental devastation, natural disasters. (I am not convinced that such problems are necessarily tractable other than by such hardcore magical methods as critical thinking, democracy, consciousness-raising, education, conflict resolution and so on.)

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

13:35 / 06.06.08

re: Dusto:

I'd say, even aside from some sort of philosophy about inside/outside your head, that it's going to depend on what kind of "summoning" you're doing. are you inviting some spirit person to come hang out in your apartment? are you inviting its attributes into yourself? are you inviting yourself into its environment, or trying to alter your everyday environment?

or are you just trying to have a conversation/communion?

it'll also depend on what kind of person you're talking to. ancestor spirit? god? elemental force? pop icon? archetype? animal spirit/totem? unfamiliar aspect of your subconcious? ...etc?

and even then, I bet Loki does things differently than Thor, just due to personality differences. and more etc.

when I said "summon the Flash and ask him", what I meant was more like "don't ask other people if this is real or not, do it yourself and make up your own mind based on experience."

for advice on how to summon stuff, there are loads of threads around here...depending, again, on who and what and why.

or ask the Flash how to summon the Flash. I get most of my ideas for rituals that way (well, not the Flash, but whatever), and then come back here to read up, refine, confirm. but maybe that method doesn't work well for you.

find out what does!

14:58 / 06.06.08

Man, what Mordant wrote there is fine, fine advice.

22:03 / 06.06.08

i was under he impression that you had to be really bloody specific with sigils, or indeed any type of magick. wouldnt there be ill effects involved in being too vague with your intent?

22:39 / 06.06.08

There's more than one way to be specific.

--Ember--

14:10 / 07.06.08

Progress(?) report:

So, yesterday I decided to try something. Made up my own rite (music, automatic writing, invocation), though as I have no frame of reference for traditional rites I don't know how proper it was. Wasn't quite sure who I wanted to "summon." I vaguely want some assistance right now with a writing project, so I tried a host of names at once: Odin, Thoth, Mercury/Hermes. I felt a bit flushed, a bit of heightened awareness (not quite psychedelic levels, but there was an edge to reality), which I suppose was something of a success, but at first it seemed not much more came of it. Nothing but gibberish in the automatic writing/drawing.

The semi-interesting part: After about an hour, I went downstairs and grabbed my mail. In it was a book I ordered second-hand a few weeks ago: "A Journey From this World to the Next," by Henry Fielding. Not so much an occult book as it is a satire of 18th C. life, but as I read the first chapter I was surprised to find Mercury featured as a prominent character (in that chapter only, mind you). On the one hand, I ordered this book weeks ago, and it would have arrived with or without the rite I performed. On the other hand, I wouldn't have paid the slightest attention to the appearance of Mercury if it hadn't arrived precisely when it did. And Mercury is the god of mail.

I decided to take this as a sign to be more specific. Don't summon Odin/Thoth/Mercury: summon Mercury. Which is what I tried to do this morning, by running as fast as I could in mile laps to the point of exhaustion while chanting whatever came into my head about invoking fleetfooted Mercury, messenger of the gods, father of poetry, shepherd of the dead (the last of these I didn't know until reading the Fielding). I'm still sweating from the run at the moment, waiting to see if anything interesting happens. Will report back.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:34 / 07.06.08

wouldnt there be ill effects involved in being too vague with your intent?

Why would there be "ill-effects?" If you do a working for "a job" without specifying anything about the kind of job you wanted, it's possible that you might get a rubbish job instead of a good one (I once ended up litter-picking in Hyde Park, dreadful business). Beyond that, though, I'm not sure what kinds of ill-effects you might see.

There's a kind of approach to magic which I think of as the Monkey's Paw model. In this Gothic little tale, a farmer and his wife wish for 200 pounds. Shortly thereafter, their son is killed in a farming accident and they recieve an insurance payout of exactly 200 quid. This is the sort of thing that is terribly likely to happen to one if one lives in a book of Gothic fiction, but rather less common in real life. Even so, I've seen variants of the Monkey's Paw story touted around as examples of what can go wrong with your magic--sometimes presented as true case studies which totally happened to this one guy's sister's hairdresser's cousin's mate's brother.

The thing is, the universe doesn't work like that. There isn't a demonic legal division that gets hold of all your spells on the way to causality, inspecting them for any possibility of giving the magician what ze's asked for while contriving to fuck hir over. A successful working is likely to get you pretty much what you ask for, without arranging any nasty farming accidents to get it to you.

In the long term, of course, a committed magical practice will have effects on the rest of your life. Over time you'll likely find yourself swept up and carried off in directions you could hardly have predicted at the outset, let alone intended. But that's something else...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:42 / 07.06.08

Don't summon Odin/Thoth/Mercury: summon Mercury.

I'd certainly second this. I know that there's more than one model of Deity, and that it's not uncommon for modern magicians to group Gods according to their particular portfolios and call upon them as a matched set, as it were. However I find this sort of approach... problematic. IME the most profitable approach has been to conceive of each God as an individual living Consciousness and treat Them accordingly. I think you did the right thing in issuing a general sort of invitation and then responding to the messages you got afterwards.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:03 / 08.06.08

Help me out, Barbelith...

So I have to give a talk sometime in the next week-and-a-bit regarding the whole religious-maniac side of things, and the Lokean religious-maniac side of things in particular: what it's like to have a "patron" (don't like the word but you know what I mean) and to work with that God full-time. And I don't know what to talk about!

There's only going to be about 6-8 people. They all know me and know a bit of my story; I've also talked about Loki on a small forum frequented by most of the other attendees. The group isn't a Northern Trad group and the event isn't an NT event, but there's a strong NT influence and some of the participants are heathens. So I'm concerned about striking a balance between giving ppl sufficient back-story/basic information and boring everyone to death with stuff they already know.

And as for the devotional part... I just don't know what to say. This stuff is really hard to articulate, you know? How do you express it without sounding wrong in the head? Or with sounding wrong in the head but still delivering something that's relevant to everyone else?

21:43 / 09.06.08

Mordant - I've been pondering your questions relative to how people present things at PantheaCon, and I've got to say, I'm not sure how obliged you are to actively find ways to relate what you're doing to other people's needs. You don't know their needs. But if you tell the truth, and you are frank, and say "This is the way I do it, this is how I got into it." and then speak of your own experience with confidence, you don't need authority over anything else, because you've already said where the boundaries of the truth are.

If I were your audience, I would say, "Tell me YOUR stories" because I can follow the stories and relate the patterns to my own needs without you having to spell that out for me. But I would also want the opportunity to check in with you once you've done with a story, to see if I understand, and possibly relate bits of my own story back to you to see if you perceive the connection I'm seeing.

So... perhaps... Outline chronologically the development of your own practice. Break it down into a handfull of explanatory stories. Have a Q/A bit between each one where folks can ask questions and you can help them relate what you know to what they need.

I figure... don't worry about sounding crazy. As long as you tell the truth, it's not your problem if they think you sound crazy. If they need to hear your words, they won't care if you sound crazy because they're just as sane as you are.

Does that help?

--Ember--

12:29 / 12.06.08

Get a wishing paw! (here's a link to the 1902 W.W Jacobs story for our readers)

More seriously, I agree with Emberleo- just blurt it out as you would to one person, don't overthink your delivery. Allow time for discussion and questions at the end, most people find that part the most useful, and keep it simple and concise.

Here's some advice on public speaking which might be helpful like "You Don't have to be Brilliant or Perfect to Succeed" and "All You Need is Two or Three Main Points".

I can't imagine knowing the subject is an issue, so it sounds like you just need to reassure yourself about the delivery. Is that about right?

12:32 / 12.06.08

This is the best one-
"The last principle to remember is that your audience truly wants you to succeed. Most of them are scared to death of public speaking, just like you. They know the risk of embarrassment, humiliation, and failure you take every time you present yourself in public. They feel for you. They will admire your courage. And they will be on your side, no matter what happens."

18:46 / 12.06.08

I really think that's true.

When I've given talks or whatnot at PantheaCon, or in other contexts, what I tend to do is use a bit of humor when I start to stumble or get nervous. Making folks laugh a bit takes the pressure off me to be perfect, but also releases the tension that can build when something isn't going quite right. Then, once you're back on track, it's easier to just get on and go.

--Ember--

08:16 / 13.06.08

The last principle to remember is that your audience truly wants you to succeed.

...Unless you are giving your talk to a steaming pit of lagered-up pagan nightmares with no social skills and egos the size of their arses, who go to the same pub every week regardless of who is speaking, don't really give a shit who you are or what you're on about, are entertained by your nervous stammering, take pleasure in your humiliation and want you to fail.

06:00 / 14.06.08

In which case you can safely not give a flying binturong's buttery whiskers what they think.

--Ember--

13:24 / 16.06.08

Unless you are giving your talk to a steaming pit of lagered-up pagan nightmares with no social skills and egos the size of their arses

That reminds me, time for a meet I think

15:14 / 16.06.08

Ooooh! Yes! Yes!

18:36 / 16.06.08

Not having much luck with Mercury. Tried a couple more times to invoke/communicate, but no real measurable success beyond the first day. Any practical advice, however general?

19:54 / 16.06.08

Well, what are your methods for invoking? What are you offering?

From what I've read in thread, your asking for a favour, but not actually offering anything in return. If Mercury was a dude in the street, you would be stupid to expect a return. Just because he is an invisible super dude doesn't change things.

20:53 / 16.06.08

Along those lines, the offering I was taught by my Helenic ex-boyfriend was to toss a handful of coins out the window at a crossroads.

I have my own challenges with Mercury, and thus cannot vouch for this as a good thing personally, but it worked well for him. Though come to think of it, that was Hermes, not Mercury. Similar, but not the same.

The one time I had such an offering go well was when I actually got out of the car and set 7 coins that I cared about down on at the corner of a major intersection where somebody could find them and pick them up. This is rather different than tossing a bunch of pennies I don't care about out a window in a driver's crossroads where nobody is ever likely to retrieve and appreciate them. I think the part where I actually cared about the coins in question was more important than the location, though.

The other thing that went ok was to give coins to a well or fountain, but I think I did that because the fountain in question was a statue of Mercury...

--Ember--

10:56 / 18.06.08

If you want to get a line of communication with any of the crossroads guys (or crossroads ladies for that matter), the thing to do is go to the crossroads with good offerings that you think they will like. Coins, alcohol, smokes, sweets, other food offerings as you consider appropriate. Repeat the process every week until things start happening. Try and get a sense of which offerings they like through trial and error. Go with your instinct. Work like this is long-term business and relationships develop slowly and deeply over time.

13:58 / 18.06.08

Mornin'.

Some of my good local pals want to go Legend Tripping to promote their new horror movie review site and make web episodes of the excursions. I know, I know all the world needs is more people with cameras poking the Deads and Holies but they are sincere creative folk who want to do it right. They've asked me to help with a combined Fortean and respectful spiritworker approach. I personally think Legend Tripping when done with an open mind can be used to connect people to the Spirit of the Place and is fantastic for promoting relationship to powerful local sites. That said it can be stupid as hell and boring to boot. Lot's of hurry up and wait.
I'm using a combination of divination and asking the local Genius Loci to volunteer for visitors' day. We'll have the requisite skeptic with us but ze's a very respectful person and not given to mocking or shit behavior. Just doesn't currently have a slot for high weirdness in hir cosmology. My personal agenda with the project is to show people how you can approach places like visiting a neighbor you have yet to meet (bringing treats and being super polite about Their timetable). As for the phenomenon the kids want to film I've been very clear that they may or may not get their Hosts to give a full tour even if they ask super nice. It's about the act of putting yourself out their to begin a discussion and see what happens. Plus I love taking a pile of devices and hiking about in the wilds, it reminds me of my childhood dragged around by a Fortean looking for strangeness.Good times.
I'm trying to focus less on personal spaces because I'm less comfortable brining a camera into someone's home, as many of the phenomena in dwellings are very personal and relate to people's history and wellbeing. I think the team is trying to line up at least one of those outings and I'm working with my People to make sure it is a beneficial visit for everyone involved.

Right so, what things would you like the team to keep in mind, what things do you think the watching public need to learn, please hit me with your feedback. I'd be into to hearing your unhappiness with previous excursions and approaches but I ask that you keep in mind these folks are not trying to be exploitive rather they are seeking out the wonder and awe in their lives.

15:58 / 18.06.08

I don't really know "Legend Tripping" but I have a suspicion the useful parts won't look like anything on camera.

16:13 / 18.06.08

Legend Tripping is an exercise in putting yourself in an historically supposed liminal space and seeing what shakes out. We're doing it sans booze drinking 'cause I'm uptight like that.

Oh I dunno about the camera part of it. Seeing people's reactions and the other equipment responding to phenomenon is informative. But yeah lot's of boring stand around and look at butterflies. Thus the magic of editing later to the good parts I suspect.

03:19 / 19.06.08

Can the voodoo Loas read your mind and spirit and stuff, or is it just like talking to a regular dude, and you can negotiate stuff and conceal stuff and things like that?

07:46 / 19.06.08

I'm not as experienced as Gypsy or some others in this, but in my experience, Loa can read your mind (certainly in meditation, that's how you're talking, yes?) but that doesn't mean They will do so reliably.

Which is to say, I wouldn't lie to a Loa - ever - but if saying something out loud would be disrespectful and you keep your mouth shut, you won't get nailed for thinking it. And the flip side is also true - if you don't speak up when it's the thing to do, merely thinking really loud is not always enough.

I don't know how traditional my perspective is, but that's my experience so far.

--Ember--

14:28 / 19.06.08

Would seem hard to do social networking with those guys if they all knew what you were thinking and what your strategies were.

16:48 / 19.06.08

I don't know if "networking" is the right way of framing it. My interactions with deities (admittedly not Vodoun entities, but I'm assuming there is a lot of cross over) isn't really like Bebo or a cocktail party.

While these beings are personalities, they're also something else. Dionysus, whilst being an all out party dude, is also an experience and a mystery. Part of the beauty of entity work for me is about honestly offering myself up to my Unknowns and letting them flow through me. When I spend time with Dionysus, I become growing crops and sex and penetrability and all sorts of shit. The boundary between me and deity becomes blurry.

I think there are entities that can be approached from almost a "genie in a bottle" mentality, and that can be effective. But from what I've been told of the Lwa, they seem bigger than that.

If I worked with a God, and I kept an element of myself away from that interaction, it would feel like a false interaction. Or, if not false, then severely limited. It's the element of vulnerability which makes those moments sacred to me. It would be like going out to sea in a rubber dingy, and never jumping in the water.

But, if we extend the metaphor, I'm led to believe that many sailors haven't always been swimmers. But they still have a very functional knowledge of the water, they still manage to make profit.

So I suppose you don't need to be immersed in a force to barter with it. But still, why bother? Why go to the drama of making a magical trade agreement, when there are more simple ways of getting things done? If all you want is results, rather than mysticism, why not just do it yourself? It would probably save you some agro.

19:01 / 19.06.08

Then, also, everything you're thinking isn't everything you intend to do. A lot of this stuff comes down to what choices you make, what promises you keep. You are not bound by your thoughts into some inevitable action.

Unless you're trying to screw a particular Lwa over (which strikes me as a dumb thing to do) what you're thinking as opposed to what you're saying is probably not all that important to Them.

--Ember--

00:33 / 20.06.08

Thank you for the replies, def some stuff to think about.

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