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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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trouser the trouserian
13:16 / 05.03.08
If you mean this:



then it comes from the Golden Dawn tradition. This article discusses this schema in relation to the Vault of the Adepti.
 
 
exultant801
05:54 / 06.03.08
ok, i am back with more humble questions and seeking more suggestions and wisdom.
i have just managed to get my hands on some fancy laboratory liquid LSD and some mushrooms. i have never tried psychedelics before and i have little interest in recreational drugs. my primary interest in hallucinogens is for magical and transcendental(or whatyouhave) purposes. i have studied up extensively in preparation and i am planning on getting to it within the next few weeks.

i live very near some amazing deserts and very strange and interesting geography so i was planning on taking a trip out to the middle of nowhere with a friend or two, finding and preparing a spot and meditating for a while before getting started. recording the good parts, of course. dear lord, this is cheesy but i hope you see what i am getting at...

does anyone have any suggestions on how to go about this trip??? preparation? focus? rituals? reading? etc
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:14 / 06.03.08
Yeah thats it, thank you.
 
 
Papess
13:30 / 06.03.08
Exultant801, sounds awesome. Just a few things off the top of head that I can think of to help you on your trip:

Make certain that at least one of the people is stone sober, but also that one person is prepared and able to stay awake for the duration of your trip.

Dress in layers. I am not certain of the climate you live in, but it does get cold in the desert at night, and as you are peaking and coming down the outside temperature will register differently to you. So, you may also want to bring a light blanket to wrap around you or place on the ground.

Bring flashlights if you are doing this at night. That is self-explanatory. However, make certain that the people tripping don't get it flashed into their eyes. Your friends should be responsible and respectful enough not to "freak you out". Gawd, I hate that.

Bring plenty of water. I recommend at least two 1L bottles, (the big ones), per person, unless you can carry more. You will need to rehydrate constantly on LSD. You might not want food while you are tripping, but as you come down, citrus fruit is really, really good to have on hand.

Bring hygienic products: toilet paper, antibacterial lotion, wipes...Going out into the bush or dessert, on LSD, without these things can be traumatic, if not extremely uncomfortable. Also, bring little baggies to clean up after yourself. Here is some good information how to defecate outdoors. Considering that LSD, once in your system, will cause peristaltic bowel movements whether ingested orally or not, you will find it is one of the first things you want to do when you feel the peak coming on. That being said, you may want to fast for at least 12 hours beforehand.

Use a large knapsack to carry your supplies in, as you want to have your hands free.

Have fun and happy tripping!
 
 
Papess
13:38 / 06.03.08
Oh, Question, Exultant801. Are you planning on doing the shrooms and LSD together or at different times?
 
 
grant
14:56 / 06.03.08
Well, here's the thing - these are chemicals (or, if you prefer, "substances") that affect your brain. They act directly on the bits of your mind that interpret and filter your perceptions. So it's important to realize that they'll be affecting everything that'd be involved in a ritual, too.

The analogy of a "trip" is probably the most useful one there is, especially if you're accustomed to traveling without an itinerary or not necessarily knowing what your destination is like.

The key here is the ability to improvise and the willingness to take things as they come - and to make yourself comfortable during some rather uncomfortable or off-putting moments.

Instead of thinking in terms of ritual as a series of acts designed to structure an experience step by step, think of it more as a means of setting the stage for an improvisation. If there are things that create a mood of exultation, tranquility and insight in you, concentrate on doing those things. Simply traveling to a different place and sitting around a fire where there's a dark sky and an uninterrupted view of the horizon does a great deal for me, and might well for you, too. Don't let yourself get hung up on "doing it wrong" or forgetting to light the right candle at the right moment, and oh, wait, that one just blew out but by now, I should be reciting this mantra and how do I pronounce that word, anyway, and if I pronounce it wrong will it still count? Because that kind of ideation will be magnified into an unpleasantly deafening roar of anxiety with the help of your chemical friends. You don't need to worry about that stuff.

Think also in terms of periods of exploration, and periods of nesting comfortably. At some point, it will likely become all a bit too much and you will desperately need a moment to catch your wits, and this moment will not be forthcoming. That's really why it's nice to have a mission control person who has the bottles of water, the warm blankets, the boombox with the soothing music, perhaps some cookies or other comfort snacks, the ability to keep a campfire going safely or to drive people around if need be. That's that person's brief. I don't think such a person is ultimately necessary, depending on the context, but is very, very useful and very, very pleasant and practically necessary in most situations. Make sure this person (and everyone you're likely to encounter) tolerates nonsensical conversation without succumbing to an urge to play around with your expectations - some jokes just aren't funny.

Have fun. Let us know how it turns out.
 
 
EvskiG
15:00 / 06.03.08
If you've never done this sort of thing before you might want to start slowly. For your first time do the mushrooms, not the LSD, in a comfortable and familiar setting such as your home.

Ideally, there shouldn't be any serious unresolved personal issues with the other people in your group.

Have already-prepared comfort food available, as well as music and art that you think you might appreciate in an altered state.

Spend your time coming up listening to music, relaxing, and chatting with friends. Once you're well into your trip (give it at least an hour, and possibly two), if (and only if) you feel like exploring, go outside. Don't go that far, and if you can have a bit of privacy (a yard, a not-too-crowded park), so much the better. Spend as little or as much time as you want outdoors, then go back in when you're ready. You probably won't want to interact much with people you aren't tripping with while you're outdoors.

Don't dig too much into interpersonal drama, if you can avoid it. Especially sexual/romantic issues.

In the unlikely event that it all seems too much, a small amount of alcohol (perhaps one beer) may help relax you, especially if you drink regularly. But don't overdo it.

You'll know when you're starting to come down. If you're tripping with a lover, have the privacy, and the rest of your friends are gone, have fun.

Sleep, reflect, discuss with friends. Then consider doing something stronger later on.

Remember what Leary saw as the three critical elements of any trip: set (your mental state and expectations), setting (where you do it), and dosage (more important than you might think -- start small, or at least moderate).

I've never used a non-tripping minder, and it may not be necessary in familiar, comfortable surroundings. But if you actually go out into the desert or another hostile environment, you sure as fuck should have one. A friend was bitten by a rattlesnake in similar circumstances and had to be airlifted to the nearest hospital. (He was fine, but we all made fun of him afterwards for being an idiot.)

One last tip, from long experience: when you take the mushrooms, and half an hour later you don't feel anything, DON'T be so quick to take more. Give it another half hour.
 
 
Papess
15:10 / 06.03.08
I'd suggest something different than Papess's suggestion.
If you've never done this sort of thing before you might want to start slowly. For your first time do the mushrooms, not the LSD, in a comfortable and familiar setting such as your home


Actually, I completely agree with you, Ev. First time with LSD or 'Shrooms would be best in a comfortable and known place, IMO also.

It wasn't really my suggestion that Exultant801 go outdoors. It's what Exultant801 said ze wanted to do. I just went with that and offered my advice for sort that of thing.
 
 
EvskiG
15:15 / 06.03.08
You're right. (I already put in a request for a change.)
 
 
EvskiG
15:23 / 06.03.08
Oh -- one other thing.

Strong psychedelics and ritual can be very, VERY messy together, even for experienced practitioners.

Get your psychedelic feet wet before you add ritual to the experience.
 
 
Papess
15:44 / 06.03.08
Thanks, Ev!

And yet again, I completely agree with you Ev, about the messy rituals on drugs...ooh the bad memories that brings up!

Grant had a good suggestion there with: "...think of it more as a means of setting the stage for an improvisation" Sometimes, I had just used a simple prompt such as a mandala or a mantra. A simple focus. The key word that I think both Grant and Ev used would be "play". Allow yourself to let go and be child-like.

For music, if you choose to use music, I have had excellent experiences with John Sebastian Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, and Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Pick music wisely. To this day, I still experience a bit of an altered state when I listen to either of those. This can be a helpful when doing work in the future. Unless one was listening to tv commercials, radio announcers or the theme from RockyIV all night. *shudder*

Also, with the familiar surroundings, the convenience of not having to use a "non-tripping minder", as E, stated, is a much better option. Even if they are well-meaning, a person who is not high with you may interfere sometimes with the trip. It is best if one can avoid resorting to having a minder, but if you are out of doors and inexperienced (or even experienced and using higher doses) it is a very good safety precaution.
 
 
exultant801
17:28 / 06.03.08
some things i hadn't even considered, damn,you guys are helpful. i like this forum.

Papess: i am gonna start with the mushrooms and see how it goes. later i will give the LSD a go. it's just that acid is hard to get around here and i have never heard of anyone having liquid form so i figured i would jump on it.

should i avoid music with a lot of lyrics to keep from being distracted? any musical suggestions?
 
 
EvskiG
17:39 / 06.03.08
Obviously, psychedelic music might be interesting.

But that can range from the Strawberry Alarm Clock to Joy Division to Bach, depending on your tastes.

Just play what you like. Don't worry about lyrics.

And note for the future that liquid LSD tends to be pretty strong. (And you can absorb it through your fingers if you touch it.)

Again, start with a low dose and work your way up.
 
 
grant
18:45 / 06.03.08
Actually, with liquid, you should probably read up on Erowid to make sure it's not dextromethorphan or some other thing.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:54 / 06.03.08
I know nothing of psychadelics, but from what little I understand of susceptibility and music and such, I would give one caveat for lyrical choice - even if you would normally like it and find it cathartic, you might want to avoid any hateful messages while you're going to be so open and high - you never know how you'll end up internalizing it.

I'm just remembering waking up one morning to the lyrics "Hate me today hate me tomorrow" playing on the radio alarm. It was truely horrible to have my last dream of the day influenced by that.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:32 / 07.03.08
Exultant do you play an instrument?
 
 
Ticker
00:13 / 08.03.08
I have to throw in that many people I know including myself need to fast before doing these types of things. If I don't fast I become really quite ill. Fasting has its own set of issues especially when far away from safety.
 
 
EvskiG
02:11 / 08.03.08
And other people don't need to fast.

(I never did. Or do.)

Your first time don't worry too much about these sorts of things.

Just figure out what you think will work for you, go with the flow, and see where your trip leads you.
 
 
exultant801
06:53 / 08.03.08
unfortunately, i don't play any instruments...obscenely lazy.

i have some experience with fasting...are we talking 24 hours of fasting or longer?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:39 / 08.03.08
Sometimes barfing is actually useful, in a spiritual sense.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:46 / 08.03.08
Yeah throwing up while coming up can be cleansing i seem to remember.

But avoid leaving the front door of the house open and letting sheep in if in wales, and also expect a visit from jehovahs witnesses in a house in the middle of nowhere on a mountain side in the middle of north wales,( i kid you not) while you have currently regressed to climbing the local trees and swinging from branches.

With fields of wet grass and mushrooms those sheep must get really spaced, that explains alot..... Oh and never take 600 of them for your first experience.

Buy a drum, easy place to begin and play with different rhythms.

I used to take my acid trundling through farmers fields and cloud gazing, and getting transfixed by mirrors while indoors and watching the beauty of moths flying around a light.

What i loved the most was hearing the sun rise.
 
 
Ticker
14:20 / 08.03.08
It's not the vomiting, or any of the possible purges (yes that kind) but the gut heavy weirdness. Best way to describe it is intestinal cramps with no obvious form of relief. It's hard to focus on the teaching elements of the experience when your body is in stupid amounts of pain and complaining. (sure that can be a designed challenge but sometimes pain is not the right tool for the job.)

I usually fast for 8 hours. Either by abstaining from food and all non water beverages for a day or wait until I wake up in the morning having fasted all night by default.

On the other hand I know some folks who have to have something to eat because of the barfing. I recommend having some ginger root ( ginger tea is lovely) to help settle the stomach.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:10 / 08.03.08
I always put that down with acid to badly cut tabs, judge dredds and smiling buddahs especially(late 80's early 90's), their were always rumours of rat poison being cut into the mix, oh and purple ohms, so i always figured that was the strychnine it had been cut with.

Never had problems with sillycybin or fly agaric, but then as Ev mentioned i had usually been drinking and smoking as well before hand.

I have a pretty tender stomach these days but i used to eat anything plastic, quartz crystal without much effect, but then thats perhaps why i have such a tender stomach these days.

I have only really fasted without drug consumption being involved, whats the difference between the two, how does the fast effect the experience or how does the trip effect the fast?
 
 
Papess
13:58 / 09.03.08
This one is for Gek:
Yes, I need money, but what I really need is a job. Especially now. Maybe I am getting my wires a little crossed because when someone like myself walks into a bank to make a withdrawal going into an overdraft to pay rent (landlady insists on being paid in cash!), and then just wants to ask the manager for the ATM limit on a debit card to be raised so that I don't have to go to a branch every month. Then instead gets a credit card, a line of credit, and a sizable overdraft protection where I will never have to worry about an NSF cheque or bill payment not going through. Maybe the manager was in a very good mood or on drugs, I dunno, but I don't even have a job. So, as lovely as this is, I don't want to seem ingrateful, I really, really need a job as the gravitational pull of the potential financial black (er, red?) hole has become exceptionally greater.

But yeah, uhm, thanks...for now, at least it helps. However, I will need a job to keep this good standing with the bank or I will get sucked into a debt that will be devastating for someone like me.

Class, do we have a good thread on Wealth Magick? This is definitely a case of Wealth Magick gone awry. Has anyone read Taylor Ellwood's "Manifesting Prosperity", yet? Maybe this is the thread I should start.
 
 
Sekhmet
23:25 / 09.03.08
Papess, you'll get quite a few threads if you search this forum for keyword "money"...
 
 
EmberLeo
04:20 / 10.03.08
Papess, when I have a need for money, I have found it more effective (including examples of helping friends with these things) to make a list of the needs that I intend to use money to meet, including how often they recur, and then push for the needs to be met, rather than for the solution I can see to be implemented.

I am clear that a regular source of money is usually the easiest, or most efficient way to meet those needs, because it meets them all at once, but I don't want to limit possible sources of help simply because they didn't occur to me, you know? So ultimately, the point is that the needs themselves must be met.

I guess my point is, it seems like you've gone and explained why you need the job (to get the money) and why you need the money (to solve the needs) - but ultimately, you put the force behind "get money" not "meet needs", and so yes, you got money, but didn't get your needs met.

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
13:52 / 11.03.08
I have found it more effective (including examples of helping friends with these things) to make a list of the needs that I intend to use money to meet, including how often they recur, and then push for the needs to be met, rather than for the solution I can see to be implemented. - Ember

Gosh, I know this. Sometimes magick is very hard to do when embroiled up in the issues. Wealth magick is a bit tricky to begin with. Even when I have pulled it off, I am always left scratching my head because I have no ideawhat exactly I did that worked. Although, I am learning a lot about what doesn't!

It's weird, but I get this awful feeling like I am doing something "wrong" because I am trying to work wealth magick. That can't be a good thing as far as wealth or magick goes!

Sekhmet: Thanks. I was just searching "wealth", not money. I need to read through everything here. Maybe do something a little more comprehensive - if there is nothing that is already.

Okay, I am being called to a game of Stratego. It's probably a blessing that I didn't get called to a job this week because it's March Break and I get to spend it with my son. :-)
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:22 / 11.03.08
Thats real wealth you have right there.

I find what works for me for wealth (including money) is self sacrifice of one kind of another, even if that is only a little bit of my time to listen and care for somebody else.

Perhaps people are right when they say that you have to give in order to receive.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:24 / 11.03.08
It's weird, but I get this awful feeling like I am doing something "wrong" because I am trying to work wealth magick. That can't be a good thing as far as wealth or magick goes!

Heh, I have similar problems, which I admit are part of why I change the focus away from the wealth itself, towards the meeting of the needs for which the wealth would theoretically provide.

Of course that brings up the other thing you already know - if your doubt tends to come flooding back before you've disengaged from the working, you're probably undermining your own effort.

And yet another thing you probably already know - This is a perfect example of why prayer can help in places it's hard to do magic directly - handing it off to a greater power that you actually trust can really help take the weight of your own doubt out of the picture.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:02 / 12.03.08
It's weird, but I get this awful feeling like I am doing something "wrong" because I am trying to work wealth magick. That can't be a good thing as far as wealth or magick goes!

Completely sympathise with you on that one, Papess. I've been wrasslin with similar hangups for years. There's a distinct tendancy amongst magicians and pagans to treat money spells as mucky, corrupting "low" magic, something a proper little witch shouldn't dirty hir hands with. Total bollocks, of course. It's all very well for some mouldy Victorian mage sitting in a mansion full of servants, or a ditzy neopagan with a ton of well-to-do rellies to tap for cash, to brand wealth and money spells as "low magic." The rest of us need to support ourselves, our families and our communities. Even after I ditched that attitude on a conscious level I still found it coming up to bite me on the arse whenever I tried to perform a money spell.

Instead of beating myself up about that, what I've done is turn the whole process of learning about money spells into an exploration of my own attitudes to money and wealth. What are the barriers between me and wealth? How can I overcome them? What is causing me to reject wealth? What do I fear happening if I allow myself access to wealth? I realised that on some level I'm genuinely afraid of having "too much" money, that I'm worried about taking it away from other people who deserve it more than I do or being corrupted by it. The thing is, if I reject wealth that means I have less to give to others; every penny I don't permit myself to recieve is a penny I cannot use to enrich my tribe. So what I've done is try and reconceptualise what a money-spell is doing. Instead of conceiving of myself as a greedy, empty sack taking in money but giving nothing out, I'm trying to see myself as a conduit for wealth. I recieve so that I can do my job better, so that I can give support to the people around me.
 
 
Papess
15:47 / 13.03.08
Ember: Of course that brings up the other thing you already know - if your doubt tends to come flooding back before you've disengaged from the working, you're probably undermining your own effort.

Yes, it seems that way. Perhaps I am concentrating too much on going into debt and recieved a greater way to do so!

And yet another thing you probably already know - This is a perfect example of why prayer can help in places it's hard to do magic directly - handing it off to a greater power that you actually trust can really help take the weight of your own doubt out of the picture.

Gosh, I hope I didn't seem arrogant with the "I know that..." bit. I may know somethign, but I often need to be reminded, especially when I have a lot on my mind, like now. However, yes Ember, you are right, and thank you for the reminder! I am trying to access help where ever I can. I have been offered help from some lovely people, and I am petitioning deities and other entities (Gek fits here) for help.

Of course, I feel guilty for doing this! Which brings me to Mordant's response:There's a distinct tendancy amongst magicians and pagans to treat money spells as mucky, corrupting "low" magic, something a proper little witch shouldn't dirty hir hands with. Total bollocks, of course. It's all very well for some mouldy Victorian mage sitting in a mansion full of servants, or a ditzy neopagan with a ton of well-to-do rellies to tap for cash, to brand wealth and money spells as "low magic." The rest of us need to support ourselves, our families and our communities. Even after I ditched that attitude on a conscious level I still found it coming up to bite me on the arse whenever I tried to perform a money spell.

Yes, I fully agree. Also, I think part of me is so put off by the whole socio-politico-economic global infrastructure (blah, blah), that I resent getting involved in it. I wish there was a better way, but this is what we have to work with, ATM.

The thing is, if I reject wealth that means I have less to give to others; every penny I don't permit myself to recieve is a penny I cannot use to enrich my tribe.

That is a very good idea. Thanks you. I am getting caught up in so many things that aren't helpful, including forgetting the very reason why I want to make and have money/wealth. Denying myself is denying all those that I would help, and I know that when I have, I am a giver. Without batting an eyelash I will give to "my tribe".

I remember once saying at the begining of a small shower that I wanted money to share with others, or something to that effect. IT immediately began to pour rain down, which I thought was a good sign. Indeed it was, as I recieved shortly thereafter about $4000. So, with the right mindset, it can be accomplished.

In fact, as I was writing this, I just got a phonecall for a job interview! w00t!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:41 / 13.03.08
I have been offered help from some lovely people, and I am petitioning deities and other entities ... for help. Of course, I feel guilty for doing this!

Mayber if you parsed the process as getting wealth for your dependant child, rather than just for you, you could let go of that guilt. From that perspective it's all a very different kettle of fish.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:02 / 14.03.08
Mordant: There's a distinct tendancy amongst magicians and pagans to treat money spells as mucky, corrupting "low" magic, something a proper little witch shouldn't dirty hir hands with. Total bollocks, of course.

I may not have made it clear: I agree with you it's bollocks - my change of tactic is primarily to do an end-run around my own weaknesses, rather than because I find practical magic beneath me.

Papess: Gosh, I hope I didn't seem arrogant with the "I know that..." bit.

Oh, not at all. I'm just acknowledging that you're not a total newbie. You'll note it didn't stop me from putting out gentle reminders that even experienced people forget sometimes.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:19 / 14.03.08
Wasn't directed at you, Ember, just a general point.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:23 / 14.03.08
Adding another little bit of spin to the money thing:

M: I realised that on some level I'm genuinely afraid of having "too much" money, that I'm worried about taking it away from other people who deserve it more than I do...

In some ways, that presupposes that money/wealth is a zero sum game. One way to spin this is to ask to create wealth so that you're not "taking it away" from anybody else. (But then, you definitely need to have the rest of the working firmly in place so that any windfalls and happy occurrences go to the things you need!)
 
  

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