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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Sekhmet
14:43 / 19.12.07
This nomenclature thing has really thrown me for a loop. I've done a little bit of work with deer and what I think of as "elk," but not moose.

In my part of the world, we would call what Mist posted the image of above a "moose," whereas this is an "elk":



And this, by way of comparison, is a caribou (aka reindeer):



I don't think of any of them in quite the same way. They have different natural ranges, different histories and characteristics. They may all be members of the deer family, but I think you can categorically lump them together only in a very general way.

Which brings up an interesting point and probably a good topic for the "stupid questions" thread; to what degree do natural species distinctions impact work with animal spirits? In my admittedly limited experience, speciation seems to be significant, but animal work isn't my main focus...
 
 
grant
16:17 / 19.12.07
Funnily enough, I've had similar thoughts about plants - the thing I gave driver 8 (and am willing to share cuttings with others) is galangal. There are at least three species named "galangal," one of which is a whole other genus... and the use of galangal in aromatic oils is also confounded by it possibly being a substitution for calamus. All similarly sweet-smelling roots, most of them probably containing identical chemical constituents. Calamus tastes bitter and not gingery, but the rest can substitute for each other in the kitchen - in most ways.

Personally, I think of these things (spirits, whatever) as clusters of qualities, so, like, for a moose, you've got qualities of hornedness, largeness, antleredness, stateliness, and a whole lot more things tied to diet, social behavior, smell and habitat. They're big herbivores with quizzical faces and very strong shoulders who act a certain way around humans.

It *seems* like if I meet some creature that has all those qualities, it won't matter if it's a lost caribou or a mutant musk-deer... it's embodying the essence of the moose. The question really has to do with how well I know the qualities of the moose. I know caribou migrate in big herds, but moose don't. That's a big difference, one which I'd consider *essential*... if I can detect it in whatever interaction I'm having with, um, mooseness. If there are no differences in identifiable qualities, then really, it's a quack like a moose, walk like a moose, swim like a moose, must be a moose thing.


Then again, I'm not rigorous in anything I do.
 
 
Ticker
17:43 / 19.12.07
my experience is a bit different from grant's but then so are cows compared to moose.

I spent some quality time at my local organic dairy farm grooming the cows (and teh bull) on saturday and the difference between breeds of dairy cattle in terms of traits and temporment is huge. Some breeds are super friendly and curious while others are so out of here when a human comes into the barn it's not funny. But. They had some big things in common obviously and moreso with each other than say with me or the farmers' kiddos. Or the chickens.

For my religious purposes the traits that most match up with my bovine Deity create resonance magically speaking and big fat insights in general. An example is while I can honor my Gods by caring for cows of any kind dairy cattle have more resonance than beef cattle. While grooming the ladies was insightful and helps balance the debt for the food I get from them, grooming the bull is hella more insightful and symbolic for caring for my God. Part of going and having direct contact with the herd and especially the bull has impacted my perception of my God.

When the bull calf Rusty was wee he was this cute sad guy kept by himself because he was hassling the cows for milk. I'd visit him and feed him grass and pet him. Now he's this big full on push you over and corner you aggressive teenage male living large with the ladies. The farmers tell me in a few months they may not be able to keep him as older bulls get even more aggressive.
I had to side step him and get behind bit of barn fencing as he followed me around demanding to be brushed. Quite different from the cows who were either skittish or just more calm than Rusty. I'd forgotten that a full grown bull is an extremely dangerous small mountain of masculinity because I see a very gentle side of my God. So being with Rusty was important for me as it served to remind me of the potential of being mushed and gored. He's even growing his docked horns back. (the cattle aren't docked at the farm which follows traditional European methods but by other American breeders the cows were purchased from.)

I guess it winds back to Archtypal versus Specific Entity work for me. While all cattle provide connections to the Archtype different subsets require different proxies. The best being as close as you can get especially if there is a specific entity you want to work with. Also going out into the world and making contact really is the best option whenever possible
 
 
Mistoffelees
18:25 / 19.12.07
So the american elk is not like the european elk, and the european elk looks like an american moose. The animal in my picture for example is an "Elch" (=elk) here, but in the image it says moose. And another one turned up yesterday. I bought the Brick DVD, and in the scene where the protagonist talks to the principal there is a moose statue on the table. The only other thing I could think of so far, is all my solitary walks in the last years and especially last months, in solitary neighbourhoods and in forests.

And again thank you for your generous input. If I had known so many people would contribute so much I would have posted about the moose much sooner.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:48 / 19.12.07
I already commented on my experience of animal allies shifting forms to other similar creatures.

What I didn't say is that it's not particularly random. If anything it's done for one of two reasons. The first is simply convenience. If they are a spirit first, and an animal form second, there are times when a different subset of their animal category would serve them better. It's cold out, so the bobcat wears a lynx form today. This isn't grizzly territory, it's black bear territory. Often environment dependent.

The other reason is to make a point. If my usually small, apparently wild Rabbit shows up as an obviously domesticated lop-eared bunny, it's because He's trying to point something out to me that has something to do with the difference between wild rabbits and pets. If He shows up with much longer, narrower ear stalks and longer back legs, He's rather more ready for action than usual. And if He shows up standing upright with a waistcoat and watch, I know there's something else up entirely. If He's black instead of brown, etc. etc.

Then, also, a lot of my animal spirit encounters occurr when the nearest physical animal of the appropriate type appears near me, approaches me, or whatever. Under those circumstances, it's bound to be whatever related animal is available. There aren't any lions in California outside of zoos. I don't normally work with Cougars, but if one shows up in a prominent way, my first guess would be that Lion sent him.

So while I do experience that my animal allies, and those of at least one or two of my friends/fellow spirit workers are known to handle form on a level above the specific, it's not because the details don't matter.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
12:58 / 21.12.07
Happy Solstice!

Winter Solstice Sunrise at Newgrange
 
 
EmberLeo
09:15 / 22.12.07
Yes! Yes! Joyous Yuletide!

I've had the song we sang for Holy Lucia at Hrafnar on the 12th demonlooping ever since. Ahh well, at least it's a beautiful song.

--Ember--
 
 
mixmage
12:20 / 22.12.07
It's a Moose, or something of that Elk...

Going by Mist's pic, the entry you want in Animal Speak is Moose, since Elk (Wapiti) in this book looks more like Sekhmet's photo. The entry is about three pages long, so I'll hold off posting it all here until I get the go ahead.

Elk and Moose receive separate sections in Medicine Cards too. Since it's not so long, I'll copy it here:

Moose... Help me to honor the gifts I can give,
And recognize my worthiness as long as I live.


Self-Esteem

Moose is found in the North of the medicine wheel, as is Buffalo. North represents the place of wisdom. Self-esteem is the medicine of Moose because it represents the power of recognizing that wisdom has been used in a situation and that recognition or a pat on the back is deserved.

Moose is the largest member of the deer family, and has great strength. The call of the male Moose is an awesome thing to hear on a musky spring night. His pride in his maleness and his desire to share his seed with a Moose cow are displays of his sense of self-esteem. The bellow of a male Moose can be viewed as a positive force, since it represents his willingness to "tell the world" about his feelings.

This "tell the world" trait contains a joyfulness which only comes with a sense of accomplishment. There is no greater joy than a job well done. This trait is therefore not a seeking of approval, but rather an enjoyment of sharing because of the spontaneous explosion of joy that comes from the deepest part of one's being.

The wisdom woven throughout this scenario is that creation constantly brings forth new ideas and further creation. Moose is telling us that joy should be shouted with pride. The wisdom in doing this shouting is that the joy is "catching". In a sense, the bellowing is a way for all of us to lighten up and give ourselves or each other a "well done!"

Moose medicine people have the ability to know when to use the gentleness of Deer and when to activate the stampede of Buffalo. They understand the balance between giving orders to get things done and having willingness to do things themselves. The wisdom of Moose medicine is akin to the Grandfather Warrior who has long since put away his war paint and is now advising the young bucks to cool their blood.

Moose medicine is often found in elders who have walked the Good Red Road and have seen many things in their Earth Walk. Their joy lies in being the teachers of the children, and in being the first ones to give encouragement. This is not to say that Moose medicine people do not use their wisdom to warn as well as praise, because they do. Moose medicine people know what to say, when to say it, and to whom.

The elders are honored in tribal law for their gifts of wisdom, for their teaching abilities, and for the calmness they impart in Council. If you are wise beyond your years and have the gift of Moose medicine, use this gift to encourage others to learn and grow. There are many facets to the wisdom of Moose medicine.

If you have chosen the Moose card, you have reason to feel good about something you have accomplished on your journey. This may be a habit you have broken, a completion of some sort, an insight on a goal, or a new sense of self that you have fought hard to earn. It is a time of feeling harmonious pride, and of recognizing those who aided you in the process.

One good exercise in Moose medicine is to write down things that you can love about yourself and your progress in life. Then apply these same things to friends, family, coworkers, and life. Don't forget to share the findings with others. They need the encouragement as much as you do.

Contrary:

If the Moose [card] is upside-down when you draw it, you are being reminded that ego can ruin your sense of accomplishment. Remember that others have the same potential you have, and do not become careless in your appreciation of their gifts. Reversed Moose implies that in tooting your own horn you have failed to be interested in others, and have therefore forgotten that everyone teaches everyone else in some way. Contrary Moose medicine may be asking you to grow quietly for awhile, to calm your spirit and allow the strength and wisdom of silence to enter your heart. This is the core of Moose medicine: knowing the wisdom of silence, so that when it is proper to speak you can take pride in your words.
 
 
mixmage
12:42 / 22.12.07
A quick scan of the Animal Speak entry not only shows it to be far more in depth, it also contradicts the entry above somewhat in that it portrays Moose as a more feminine totem.

Want it? Rather, not want it, then tell me in the next ten minutes before I begin typing.
 
 
mixmage
14:22 / 22.12.07
Okay, here goes - from Animal Speak by Ted Andrews [ISBN 0-87542-028-1] p286:

Moose
Keynote: Primal Feminine Energies and the Magic of Life and Death
Cycle of Power: Late Fall and Early Winter (November)- The Time of Approaching Shadows.

The moose is one of the most ancient and most unique of the power totems. To the Algonquin Indians, it was known as "mong-soa" or "twig eater". To the Athapaskan Indians of Alaska it is Dineega. To the latter there was a tremendous relationship between Raven and Moose. The Athapaskan hunters would protect and talk constantly on their hunts to Raven who they knew helped shape the world. They would pray to Raven to assist in the hunt for Moose. Thus when a moose appeared, it was a special, sacred gift. For anyone who aligns with Moose - no matter how it may occur - a unique and sacred energy is opened.

The moose is an animal of contradictions. It is strange and yet majestic. It seems awkward, but there is a tremendous gracefulness to it. While it makes us smile, it also causes us to catch our breath. Those with Moose as a totem will find these same contradictory feelings stirred in others about them.

Except during the mating season, it is a predominantly solitary animal with a unique ability to make use of its territory - whether it be lake, pond, grassy, plains, or spruce forests. Those with this as a power animal have that same ability.

The moose has an uncanny ability to camouflage itself, in spite of its great size and power. And it uses this ability to its advantage. Those who would align with the moose can also develop this ability. Part of this involves the ancient magic of invisibility, but it also involves an aspect of shapeshifting.

This unique "shapeshifting camouflage" is reflected in the life of the historical Merlin. When he was summoned by kings or needed desperately to recruit other allies, he came silently, disguised as a poor shepherd, as a woodcutter or a peasant. Even sovereigns failed to recognize him in his various disguises. He practiced this concealment habitually.

Despite the size of the moose, it does have a unique ability to move silently and speedily. Its appearance of ungainliness is misleading and deceptive. It is this deception which enables it to survive so well. One reason for their ability to do this is that they have excellent depth perception. They can accurately judge the negotiability of an are. The moose has a speed and grace at negotiating territory others could not. It can move through great depths of snow and through marshes that would trip up many others. This same ability can be strengthened, awakened, and even taught to those who align with the medicine power of the moose.

The moose is often associated with the feminine energies, the maternal forces of the world, and those who align with the moose will find these forces awakened. Part of this revolves around the association with water. Water is the primal symbol of the feminine forces of the universe. It is the symbol of creativity and dynamic forms of intuition and illumination.

The Penobscot Indians of Maine relate tales of how the moose once was the whale, the greatest mammal of the waters. The MicMacs of Nova Scotia tell how when the moose is too persistently hunted, it returns to the sea.

The association with the water and sea is important to understand for anyone who aligns with the moose power. The sea is the point from which all life comes and to which all life returns. it is the great womb of the universe. The moose is often seen in marshy areas and standing in lakes.

They also have a unique ability to plunge to the bottom of lakes, and can remain there feeding for up to a full minute before resurfacing in a burst with fresh greens dangling from their mouths. For those who want to work with the full mystery of moose power, this should be carefully studied and meditated upon. It reflects the ability of the individual to learn to go back to the depths and draw new life and nourishment from it. The moose can teach the ability to move from the outer world to the inner. It can teach how to cross from life to death and back to stronger life. It teaches how to use the thin thread that separates life and death to one's advantage. It is not unusual to find individuals with strong Moose medicine working in soul retrieval.

This aspect of working with life and death and the energies and life forms on both levels is reflected through a sacred tradition of the Athapaskan Indians. To these people "potlatch" is a memorial ceremony to help dispatch the spirit of the dead. The belief is that when people die, they do not leave right away. They stay nearby and so food is burned for them to eat. At first it is once a day, then every other day, then once a week and so on for a year - at which time a memorial potlatch is served. This potlatch involves a sharing of special food, particularly moose head soup, sacred because it is not always available. This service then sends the spirit on.

This reflects much about the inherent mediumship and ability to work with spirits of the dead by those who align with moose medicine and energy. Moose people can learn to go into the icy waters of the void (death) and come back out.

Another reason for its association with the primal mother / feminine energies of the universe is because the female moose is extremely protective of its young. Very few creatures will ever challenge a female moose with its calf. There is a great maternal energy that has a primal strength to it.

Moose also have a highly developed sense of smell and a highly developed sense of hearing. The sense of smell has its spiritual or metaphysical counterparts in emotional idealism and spiritual discernment. The hearing lends to the human the abilities of clairaudience and of spiritual comprehension. When Moose aligns with an individual (which is usually how it happens, rather than an individual aligning with a moose), the individual should pay more attention to that inner voice and that sense of smell. Do things not smell or sound right - even though you can't define why? Trust those feelings, for they will define themselves shortly.

Moose calves are also born with their eyes open, which is very significant. Most of those who are open and resonate with Moose medicine came into this world with their inner eyes already open. It is not unusual to find such individuals getting discouraged when they work to "click on those inner lights", as so many describe their own awakening psychic and intuitive capabilities. These individuals must understand that they came in with their inner lights already on, so there will be no clicking. Learning to trust what they so often think is simply the imagination, etc. is part of the task of maturing into full Moose power.

If a moose calf lives through its first month, it will most likely survive to become an adult. This reflects much about the lives of those who moose aligns with. It is not uncommon to find those with moose medicine having had their most difficult (and sometimes traumatic) lessons in life during their childhood. The survival through this reflects that innate ability to draw from the creative force of the feminine waters of life to strengthen and sustain them. The two most powerful parts of the moose are the paws, which will cut like a knife, and the antlers which are both decorative and defensive. The head and the feet - these two areas are parts of the body most sensitive in those of moose medicine. Foot reflexology and head, neck and upper back massages are important to release stress. I would imagine, although no research has been done on this, that cranial sacral work would facilitate healing and release most beneficially for those of moose medicine.

Along health lines, the moose is herbivorous, and this says much about the dietary needs of those who would truly align with its power. This does not mean that one should become a vegetarian, but rather that it should be a strong part of the diet. It also reflects that the body will respond most strongly to herbal alternatives rather than traditional chemical medicines.

You cannot discuss the power of the moose without also discussing its antlers. Their antlers are the largest of all antlered animals. Antlers are ancient symbols of antennae - of crownings that activate the upper chakras of the head.

Only the male of the species grows antlers, unless there is a hormone imbalance in the female. Maybe this reflects the idea that the male must attune even more strongly (through these antennae) to the intuitive promptings. The rubbing of the antlers to remove the velvet covering has a lot of significance as well. It reflects the need to massage the head area to release the past for the antlers are shed each year.

The moose is a symbol of the sexual energies as well. This sexual energy is a physical reflection of the primal creative energies. That energy has its cycle within the body and within the rhythms of the year.

Autumn is the power time of the moose, and late October and November especially is the month for honoring the moose. The hunting season is over. The mating is being completed, and a new cycle is about to begin. For those of moose medicine the autumn is a powerful time. The smell of dry laves, the sound of their crunch as they are walked upon, touches a primal core, stirring life forces anew within the individual. In many ways it is aligned with Samhain, All Hallow's Eve, All Saint's day, Harvesting Rituals and all the traditional energies associated with this season.

The Moose has always been a powerful omen. When it appears in dreams, it reflects a long, good life. It was known to give strength, and more than one Indian tribe believed that you could travel three times as long after a meal of moose. (The mystical significance of three should not be bypassed here. It is the creation, the new child is born from the womb of the mother.) The hoof was known as a cure for epilepsy. Moose was known to banish headaches and dizziness, and Moose medicine was also considered the antidote for snakebite.

The moose has no enemy that it fears other than a grizzly bear, but even then it can outrun and outswim it. Its maneuverability and intuition, along with its highly developed senses sustain it.

Almost all northern Indian tribes have legends and tales of the moose - reflecting its universality and its great mysticism. The Menomini of Wisconsin even had a moose phatry or clan at one time. The Dog-Rib Indians south of the Arctic Circle (near Great Bear lake and Great Slave lake) speak of Hottah, a two-year-old moose who was the cleverest of all northern animals, and who helped create the Rocky Mountains.

When moose comes into your life, the primal contact with the great feminine force and void of life is being awakened . It is an invitation to learn to explore new depths of awareness and sensitivity within yourself and within your environs.
 
 
Mistoffelees
18:39 / 23.12.07
Thank you, mixmage! That´s really useful information. I´m quite sure now, how to interpret the dream and the moose. That text had a lot of ideas that ring true and there was at least one thing that really did happen that way in my life.

In the last couple of months I´ve become more interested in Advaita than I had before and have been reading Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, and the moose fits in perfectly for me into these men´s teachings.

Also, today I´ve again had two moose sightings, probably thanks to the christmas spirit. There was a moose statue in a garden in front of a house I passed today. And ten minutes later, I saw little flat wooden moose ornaments for hanging on the tree at a christmas fair.

In the last two weeks, I had been a bit creeped out by all these moose sigthtings, but thanks to your post, I now see it in a friendly light. Thanks again, mixmage!
 
 
Ticker
20:18 / 23.12.07
Also if it is any help Mist, I've always been told moose love greens like watercress. (though watercress is not native to NA I believe...)
 
 
Mistoffelees
20:37 / 23.12.07
As I´m in Europe, it doesn´t have to be, since we have moose/elk (= the animal in my picture) here, and my dream moose were probably European. Also, I read in the german wiki, watercress exists in North America; it was found at the Yellowstone National Park.
 
 
Ticker
12:52 / 24.12.07
We have watercress here but I was told it was a colonist? I should go look if the Yellowstone was native...thanks!
 
 
mixmage
14:33 / 24.12.07
You're most welcome, Mist... Olulabelle's a little snowed under this week, so I offered to transcribe instead. Glad it was of use.

Oh, and a Very Merry Cress-Moose!
 
 
zedoktar
22:52 / 03.01.08
Moose and their cousins are big mojo to my dad's people (yukon Tlingit). Whenever a respected clan member dies a moose shows up to a clan cousin as a tribute for the funeral; I've seen in one instance where the moose actually waited for my old man to go get his gun and come back, a ten or fifteen minute trek. His dog chased it off just as he returned (and that took some serious trying on the dogs part) and a day later a moose wandered into another clansmens path and just waited to be taken.

In a death my dad's clan, Daklawedi (wolf) a white wolf always appeared shortly thereafter.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
10:46 / 08.01.08
Can anyone please recommend a good all round book (I know, I know) on modern magical practices as well as a good all round book on historical magical practices?
 
 
illmatic
11:15 / 08.01.08
Jan Fries: Visual Magick for the first, perhaps also Phil Hine's Condensed Chaos

For the latter: Techniques of High Magick by Skinner & King is a good introduction to the "classical" magic of the "Western Tradition".
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
07:49 / 09.01.08
Cheers Rex.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:20 / 09.01.08
I'm afraid "Historical Magical Practices" is far too large a subject for one book to really do it justice.

Did Rex cover the kind of magic you're interested in, or do you still need likely titles for other areas?

--Ember--
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:11 / 14.01.08
Rex seems to have the Chaos side of it covered. I've also had suggested Modern Magic by Krieg, Real Magic by Bonewitz and Francis king and Prof. Ronald Hutton for the historical aspect. I'm looking for as wide a view, initially as possible.
 
 
Quantum
12:26 / 14.01.08
I like The Golden Bough for history (although it's not terribly accessible) also Francis King's Ritual Magic in England.
 
 
EvskiG
15:07 / 14.01.08
I know we've addressed this a few times before, but if I had to name a few highly-readable, generally-accessible books for a solid overview of modern Western magic, I'd go with:

* Essential Golden Dawn, Chic and Sandra Cicero
(history of the Western esoteric tradition)

* Drawing Down the Moon, Margot Adler
(history of modern paganism)

* Modern Magick, Donald Michael Kraig
(practical instruction in Western esoteric tradition)

* The Chicken Qabalah, Lon Milo DuQuette
(a reasonably intelligible explanation of kabala)

Because so much of Western magic is based on (mis)interpretations of Jewish and Christian scriptures and lore, I also might include a book on the creation of the Old Testament (How to Read the Bible, James Kugel) or New Testament (Who Wrote the New Testament, Burton Mack).

(I wouldn't have thought of that a few years ago. Hmm.)

I'd also think a book or two on traditions like Asatru or Voodoo/Vodoun would be appropriate, but I'm not the best person to make a recommendation there.

And if you want to talk Eastern traditions, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish . . .
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:49 / 14.01.08
Just in passing, I'd like to note how happy seeing the phrase "traditions like Asatru or Voodoo/Vodoun" makes me. The thought of certain elements seeing it and turning colours as they bite through the rims of their plastic horned helments gladdens my heart.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:37 / 15.01.08
I'd say that Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" is indispensable for an academic overview of the various distinct and/or overlapping historical strands that have created the landscape of contemporary occultism. It's ostensibly "a history of modern pagan witchcraft" but gives a fair account of the roots of modern paganism and magic in all its (western) branches. He doesn't shirk from thoroughly debunking the various myths of modern paganism and its construction, and I'd go as far as to say that anyone involved in these areas really needs to give it a read. Really interesting stuff. Although try to get a version of it with a larger bastard typeface than the one I'm reading.
 
 
grant
12:26 / 15.01.08
This library/overview stuff should really be going into its own thread by now - there are some great suggestions here (=things I haven't read, but want to) that are probably worth emphasizing.

I wonder... maybe sticking this on a page in the wiki.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:24 / 16.01.08
Thanks very much everyone, that is extremely helpful reccomendations.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:17 / 16.01.08
I guess I should actually add something useful in case someone else comes here looking for NT gear, shouldn't I?

For NT gear the reading lists are huge and scary.

TBH, I wouldn't start with magical or religious texts at all; they're all written by people with some axe or another to grind. Writings which approach the Gods from the perspective of a magician seeking to "work with" them are often flawed by a limited understanding and woefully poor scholarship. (Hint: if you come away from a book with the impression that the Tivar ar a bunch of cosmic lager-louts, it's a shit book and you should read something else). The more academically informed texts are often written with the assumption that the reader has or is looking to convert to Asatru (and will therefore by definition be white, male, straight, a homophobic fuckwit, etc).

First read the prose and poetic Eddas to get some idea of what you're dealing with, and maybe some accesible work on the history and culture of the time (I like The Vikings by Else Roesdahl). Once you've done that and got your bearings, you'll be in a better position to evaluate other writings.

If a person then wanted to actually Do Stuff with Team Norse, I'd recommend taking a look at Galina Krasskova's Exploring the Northern Tradition which covers a lot of the basics and offers ritual forms and devotional acts. Freya Aswynn's Northern Mysteries and Magick is another good text, although the Wiccan/HCM influence of the time colours it a bit IMO.

People interested in getting deeper into Northern spirituality would then benefit from reading Kvedulf Gundarsson's works, starting with Teutonic Religion.

What to avoid:

Anything that was written by a Wiccan.

Anything by DJ Conway. Avoid it with KNIVES.

Do not get into Edred Thorsson until you have a sophisticated enough understanding to pick out all the bits of HCM gear.

Like I say this is a huge field. I could go on all day.
 
 
grant
14:40 / 16.01.08
Here: http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Essential_Reading.

Currently, it's unprotected - any member can edit it. Please do so.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:45 / 16.01.08
The Public Bodies Liaison Committee for British Paganism say in their September meeting, under article 5 on the subject of the 2011 census that;

TT requested that the word 'Heathen' should replace 'Northern Tradition' as an umbrella term to represent this strand of Paganism and this was agreed by the Committee.

How can this be?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:07 / 16.01.08
I have a horrible horrible feeling that this is one of them schism thingies. The thing of it is, a lot of people have damn good reasons to identify as "NT pagan" rather than Heathen, or Heathen rather than Asatrú; the umbrella term "Northern Tradition" is useful here.
 
 
EvskiG
03:13 / 17.01.08
I guess I should actually add something useful in case someone else comes here looking for NT gear

Interesting.

Until you defined NT as "Northern Tradition" later in the thread I had no idea what it meant.

From HGA to LBRP, acronyms can be tricky.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:54 / 17.01.08
For what it's worth, Diana Paxson has a book Essential Asatru, which, given Diana's inclinations, should be free of Homophobic White Male bullshit, while still being an informed introduction to Heathenism.

NT vs. Heathenism... from an inside perspective, the difference matters. From the outside? Well, they're denominations of the same thing, and personally, I think it's totally crap that anybody ever pushed the NT folks away from what is, to my understanding, the more general term - Heathen.

Sure, NT isn't Asatru. Neither is Vanatru. And I never claim to be Asatru m'self, but I've gotten used to Heathen, and now I look at it, the word feels as general to me as "Christian" is to all those denominations. A pig-headed Baptist (not to be confused with nice Baptists) can say "Catholics aren't Christian" 'till they turn blue in the face. That doesn't make them correct.

The only reason in my mind the NT folks aren't Heathen is that they don't self-identify as Heathen - but that's in self-defense to the asshats who tried to tell them They Are Doing It All Wrong.

So... for governmental purposes? *shrug* I can see why they'd choose Heathen as the blanket descriptor. The difference from the outside is too subtle to matter to them.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:22 / 17.01.08
The only reason in my mind the NT folks aren't Heathen is that they don't self-identify as Heathen - but that's in self-defense to the asshats who tried to tell them They Are Doing It All Wrong.

But that, to my mind, is a damn good reason. Some of the people I know who consciously choose or have chosen in the past to identify as "NT pagan" or similar rather than "heathen" have done so in response to harrassment (from defamation up to and including outright death threats). I think we should respect that choice. If I'd been kicked, poked, and shoved out from one umbrella and been forced to go and find my own, I'd be seriously put out if some Government agency started trying to push me back under the old umbrella again. (I should say that I identify as heathen but only because it is a voices-in-the-head thing that I ought to do so.)

I may be being unfair, but this looks kind of like it might be related to an attemt to disappear those NT folk who aren't "proper" heathens, forcing them to choose a label such as "neopagan" which is more acceptable to the heathen mainstream. I hope I'm wrong.
 
 
EmberLeo
02:57 / 18.01.08
But that, to my mind, is a damn good reason. Some of the people I know who consciously choose or have chosen in the past to identify as "NT pagan" or similar rather than "heathen" have done so in response to harrassment (from defamation up to and including outright death threats).

I don't disagree - my point is that I find it preferable for the harassment to stop, since I think it's a crappy reason for there needing to be a new name for only some pagans worshiping Germanic/Scandinavian powers - which is the most generic reclaimed definition of "Heathen".

My point is that I would rather see Heathen be used the way Christian is used - non-denominationally. Asatru, Vanatru, Theodish, NT, are to my mind denominations of Heathen. Yeah, it's just my mind, but I like it in here, and I think it's nicer than what I'm seeing out there. Heh.

*shrug* I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to self-identify, I'm saying you shouldn't need to re-evaluate a perfectly reasonable self-identification due to asshats harassing you.

I may be being unfair, but this looks kind of like it might be related to an attempt to disappear those NT folk who aren't "proper" heathens, forcing them to choose a label such as "neopagan" which is more acceptable to the heathen mainstream. I hope I'm wrong.

I seriously doubt it. Far more likely the government wants to simply lump NT into Heathen.

--Ember--
 
  

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