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"Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
12:15 / 10.12.07
More generally, UPG could be compared to fan art or fiction. Is that a fair analogy?

It's an analogy that makes me feel slightly sick...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:59 / 10.12.07
Not... really... Quants. The big difference being that fiction, even if you are very heavily involved in fanninating it, is generally accepted to be, well, fiction, and us religious maniacs are quite into our Gods being real (for a certain value of "real"). Admittedly it's an area that gets a bit hazy on the border, but the chief difference between fanfic and UPG is that fanfic is about making stuff up and UPG is about finding stuff out. (To be fair this is a distinction that some pagans and heathens fail to grasp, which is how come you end up with pages and pages of ill-written "UPG" featuring Mary-Sue Idunna and eyemelting furry art pages where the pantheon are rendered as anthropomorphic animals.*) UPG emerges from the process of striving to become closer to one's Gods, to know Them and understand Them better as living, active consciousnesses. Not saying that really passionate fan-fiction can't come from a similar place, of course, but I'd dispute that it was the same place.



*Seriously. I mean, I've got nothing against furries, I frown on furry-bashing, and everyone has the right to depict and represent their Gods in the ways they find most meaningful. It's just that I can never unsee it.
 
 
Ticker
13:17 / 10.12.07
I tend to think of UPG in terms of human people telling other human people about People they know but not mutually.

In all human terms here is an example:
if Mordant told someone offboard about a person she knows named Quantum and what this person is like from her personal experience, and if no one else confirms that there is a person named Quantum and their experience matches what Mordant has said then that's Mordant's UPG experience of Quantum.

With UPG there is always the option of group verification, something that you don't get with fanfic because it is really only one person's ultra subjective experience as produced through a creative act.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:23 / 10.12.07
How *do* you decide what to dismiss as deluded ravings and what to take on board, in a nutshell?

In answer to this, I'd have to point out first of all that you're missing an important third option there, that of neither dismissing nor taking on board wholesale, but of acknowledging the information respectfully but setting it gently aside for the time being because you have no way of assessing its validity yet. I think too many people fail to realise that this even exists as a possibility, hence lots of "I had X insight last night, but since I can't back it up from lore and none of my peers confirm it I'm going to have to chuck it out completely"--or on the flipside "I had X insight last night. How dare you not immediately all agree with me? Are you saying I'm crazy/a liar etc?" and other such baby/bathwater ejection scenarios.

To assess the validity of a particular bit of UPG, I would first look to the extant lore and see if there were any corroborating facts or areas of major conflict. Then I'd look at my own experience of the Being(s) in question. Then I'd look at other's reports. (Sometimes there is nothing in lore, of course.)
 
 
EmberLeo
07:51 / 11.12.07
Re: Humanoid gods - sorry, I guess I thought there was a "why" behind looking for the non-animals. Reading too much in from other conversations, I expect.

--------

Re: Taking on UPG - for me it's like just about any other judgement call. I'm evaluating for two things.

The first is validity given existing or pending context. As with any other "fact" presented without it's own verifying source, if it fits what I already know, I question it less. If it seems extremely unlikely or inexplicable, I question it more. If it directly contradicts something else I know, I question it even more. And in all cases, the method of verification is to compare it with other available information (be that the books, other people's direct experiences, or whatever).

The second is ethics. Even if it seems unlikely, if it causes no harm to ponder, I will allow the idea to simmer pending further information for much longer. Even if the idea seems quite likely, or fits well with what I know, if it's unethical, I may toss it as not useful to me regardless. However, if something is both unlikely and unethical, I'll pretty well toss it almost immediately. If something is extremely likely, but horribly unethical, I can't just toss it outright, because it's too likely to come up again. So I tend to hold onto those bits for future reference, even if I don't choose to act on them in my personal practice.

Does that help at all, Quantum?

--Ember--
 
 
darth daddy
11:27 / 11.12.07
As an intellectual exercise, using this term loosely, I have attempted to determine which demon is attacking Brittany Spears. My demonology being extremely limited, I have failed to find a traditional demon in charge of shaving heads and no panties. Help anyone?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:34 / 11.12.07
Who is Brittany Spears, and what evidence do you have that she is being attacked by a demon?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:46 / 11.12.07
She looks happy enough to me.
 
 
Sekhmet
14:16 / 11.12.07
It's the demon of poor judgement and a need for attention. Moving on.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:23 / 11.12.07
That's a bit of a harsh thing to say about another member of the board.
 
 
Ticker
15:15 / 11.12.07
I has a question!
I could probably plop it in the Shinto thread but I have more general interest in your answers.

Over the years I have become addicted to shelf altars for space reasons and anticatgodzilla rampages. I'm also practicing a japanese martial artform heavily influenced by Shinto in which household altars/shrines are called Kamidana. In particular I have the option of building a kamidana for the Kami of the martial art I practice to be in my home. I'm seriously thinking about this but I'm not sure about the cultural appropriation aspect of just taking this piece of a system. In fact my uncertainity has kept me from doing it for a while. My goal would be to strengthen my relationship with the particular Kami and to seek assistence with deepening my practice of the artform. I'm also going to be taking more classes per week and going to harder classes to improve my skills.

I'm debating if I can commit to caring for the kamidana and its resident Kami but beyond that I'm not sure about bringing a Shinto spirit into a non shinto household. If it would be unhappy because it just gets a kamidana and not the whole house. I'm thinking of emailing the Shinto priests at the Grand shrine and asking what's appropriate but I'm curious what you think as well.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:33 / 11.12.07
Shinto does not have a monopoly on shelf altars. If you want to work with the spirits of your martial art, just do it and see what happens. What the spirits think about it is more important than what some random shinto priest thinks about it, and if you feel the spirits of your martial art are giving you the nod to work with them in this way - go and do it. Let your results speak for themselves. It is not "cultural appropriation" to work with the spirits of something you are already committed to. As far as I'm aware, Shinto, at its most basic level, is simply spirit work. Stop worrying about it, stop trying to seek external validation for it, and simply build the altar, have conversations with the spirits, let them tell you what you want and how they want to be worked with, let it develop organically and directly out of the spirit work.
 
 
This Sunday
15:34 / 11.12.07
Contacting the priests is probably a good idea, as is being honest with yourself in terms of what you can and cannot commit to. As far as my fairly-limited knowledge of Shinto goes, it is a very appropriation-friendly religion, so in that respect you may be okeh. In terms of appeasement... there's never just one optimal position between acknowledgement and bargaining, so my suggestion would be to just feel that one out as it's own separate case. Or, ask the priests.
 
 
Ticker
17:05 / 11.12.07
thanks gents!

Stop worrying about it, stop trying to seek external validation for it, and simply build the altar, have conversations with the spirits, let them tell you what you want and how they want to be worked with, let it develop organically and directly out of the spirit work.

yeah I have to stop hand wringing over a bunch of stuff related to this practice and remember perfect is the enemy of good. I don't need to start off an expert just get up and running on it. Yet I think in the mix is the need to be open to learning something not of my cultural mix and working hard to build the relationship. Part of this for me is become aware of the Kami's culture.

Contacting the priests is probably a good idea, as is being honest with yourself in terms of what you can and cannot commit to.

Yes they have offered to help me learn the basic care and feeding beyond what my wee book sources suggest and to provide me with an aid specific to my martial artform. They seem to be all good with mixed household spirits.

In examining this whole process I can see that part of my desire is to access the flow of the tradition not only in what I get in my dojo (which shies away from the overt spiritual aspects) but in what nourished the founder when he created it. Most importantly I want to develop a better relationship with the art. Approaching the Guardian of the artform correctly in a tradition heavy on etiquette seems like a good idea.

The priest invited me to come and participate in the Shinto memorial festival for the founder in which they also train in the artform. Talk about an experience!

So yes get off my butt and do it already.
 
 
grant
18:25 / 11.12.07
If there's a Shinto altar in it, how is it a non-Shinto household?
 
 
Ticker
19:45 / 11.12.07
If there's a Shinto altar in it, how is it a non-Shinto household?

Well there are some rules about how the whole house is supposed to be set up for the Kami to be happy. So my question was if the whole house isn't set up that way would they be terribly unhappy? Also I'm hip deep in other household Deities and wasn't sure if the Kami are ok with that.

The answer is the Kami are ok with just their kamidana. You just have to take proper care of it because it is their house. I have to locate a spot where the new Folks can have their house where it faces east/south has good light and is quiet. Simple enough to make me think GL has the right of it and I'm just procrastinating.

Tonight I'm going to tell my dojo mates about the invitation to go to the ceremony at the shinto shrine.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:28 / 12.12.07
I assume there will be more elements to make this distinctly Shinto than it simply being wall-mounted? Because if that's the primary trait that will make it Shinto, I don't think there's any problem at all.

I have wall boxes for Freyr and Freya that I made, and one for Ghede that I bought. I've never heard anything about Shinto altars, so I know I'm not appropriating there (any number of other ways, perhaps, but not there).

In general, I agree - if you're committed to the particular relationship, do what seems appropriate for that relationship. Don't worry about what other people will think, except for the overall practice of keeping your relationships harmonious in general.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
12:51 / 12.12.07
The big difference being that fiction, even if you are very heavily involved in fanninating it, is generally accepted to be, well, fiction

Sorry, I should have been clearer- it's like fanfic in that it's not 'canon', it's produced (or discovered for UPG) by current practitioners rather than historic sources, etc.

I didn't mean experiences with the divine are like writing Spock/Kirk slash, nooooooo, nonono. I meant the relation between accepted canon (X entity favours honey) and individual discoveries (X likes raspberry jam) is similar to the relation between fictional canon (Spock is emotionless) and fanfic (Spock likes raspberry jam).

I hope that's clearer, sorry to make Gypsy feel sick.
 
 
Ticker
14:54 / 12.12.07
I assume there will be more elements to make this distinctly Shinto than it simply being wall-mounted? Because if that's the primary trait that will make it Shinto, I don't think there's any problem at all.

I have a ton of wall altars for other Peeps already. This one is specifically for a Shinto Guardian to feel welcome. The Shinto priests were very relaxed about it but my friend in Japan gave me some other good guidelines. Light colored wooden shelf high up on the wall in a well lit part of the home but out of the way of foot traffic, pet traffic, not by any entrances, aligned so the doors will face the East or south. Best away from all other ritual stuff. Special white ceramic offering dishes.

I've been examining my motives especially with GL's post cutting to the quick a bit, which I appreciate for making me think harder. My undertaking of the martial art, which is Aikido btw, has become about about undertaking discipline, being open to learning and critique, and dedication to improving myself. Being a beginner and a slow learner has been a challenging thing for me. I've usually been a quick study in most non physical pursuits I've tried so it has been ultra humbling to not have an easy time of it.
I watched some of my classmates take tests on Monday knowing that I couldn't have passed them. There's something in me in that is both drawn to trying really hard and being hellya intimidated. The path through the scary embaressing depressing parts is one of focus, attention, and care. It takes a physically skilled person 7-10 years to reach shodan with the last few years being a commitment of daily practice. I am not a physically skilled person. Shodan btw is not an end point it just means you have the basics down.

So making a sacred home for the Guardian of Aikido mirrors this process for me. By caring properly for the Kami I will also be aligning myself with the intention of making Aikido more a part of my life. I'm battling not just laziness but insecurity about having this as a priority in my life. Taking the utmost care forces me to really pay attention and not just do this because I want one more spirit altar in my house.

Sorry to get all blog posty on you folks but it helps me to understand why I am seeking validation and why this feels different than putting up an altar for another purpose.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:56 / 12.12.07
Well, I liked your post, anyway. Thank you for it, and yes, I understand what you mean. For all my relationships, I try to avoid making too many commitments because I would rather do more and promise less. I'm constantly afraid I won't be able to keep my promises, and so I would have a similar hesitancy towards keeping such a shrine.

Freya periodically pokes at me for that, but I've noticed that as long as I do keep the promises I have made, and give more than I ask for, The Powers That Be can't much complain.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:19 / 12.12.07
I enjoyed it too. I think that kind of experiential reporting and serious examination of your practice are the best things about the Temple, not a digression requiring an apology.
 
 
Mistoffelees
20:44 / 17.12.07
Anyone know, what a moose might stand for?

On the 6th I dreamt of two moose attacking me, even chasing me up a tree, and me also having moose antlers on my head.
When I walked around town the following days, I sometimes saw moose posters. Yesterday, I walked past an antique store, where they had an almost lifesize moose statue (bronze or a similar metal). And it still doesn´t stop. Tonight, Mordant posts an article about a boy being attacked by moose.

Anyone know what to make of this?
 
 
eye landed
04:09 / 18.12.07
Anyone know, what a moose might stand for?

you are awesome. i totally feel like i can go back to the topic that involves me now, instead of this great stuff the rest of you have been doing. sometimes im tempted to start a temple thread called 'me'. but thats because i have some kind of brain disorder.

i can talk about a moose a bit, but i have more experience with deer. luckily, they have a fair bit in common. this will also expand a bit on my idea of animal spirits. deer can actually be encountered in my city. its incredibly powerful to see deer wandering the streets on a foggy morning. deer arent an urban animal like cats and crows. they are ecotone species: they exist at the boundary of two ecosystems. they are also crepuscular: they are most active at twilight. as are moose-- who are much less ecotone, and thus more wild and dangerous. some friends of mine hit a moose with their suv and barely lived to tell the tale. deer are mediators between ecosystems: they bring the wild into the city, but not so much as to damage it. imagine a moose or a bear wandering the streets; its a threat, while a dear is a joyous thrill (although they manage to live with bears in whistler and other smallish canadian cities.)

think of how disneys bambi is one of our most impactful modern myths on the theme of humanitys carelessness with the natural world. the deer is a diplomat, an ambassador, maybe even a spy. theres an american aboriginal (wish i could be more specific) myth about the deer woman, who seduces men with her attractive human torso, then tramples them with her deer feet (or maybe this is just the hbo version). but in bambi, the deer is also the king of the forest, which has something to do with deer gender differences and something to do with the bipolar complexity of the deer symbol.

apart from these encounters, i came to deer through frogs. a nodal experience for me was nearly stepping on a frog on the road, after living beside a swamp for a few months and hearing them every night and not really thinking about it. i studied this frog intently (and it studied me). it was unconcerned with me, although i could kill it easily. death is change, and a frog is not afraid of change because physical metamorphosis is such a major part of its lifestyle. the frogs body is also quite human-like. its rear legs are equal in size to its body, its front legs can be splayed to the side...its easy to imagine a frog walking upright, wearing clothes, etc. a dog, for instance, couldnt do it because its legs stick out perpendicular to its trunk. theres also the frog prince myth, where a frog undergoes further metamorphosis into a man. and peter gabriel has a clever song about oral sex called 'kiss that frog'.

the deer wears the frog on its head. the general morphology of the animal doesnt change, but it grows and sheds an amazing visual display as a seasonal routine. and its not just a display. the antlers are functional according to the deers different behaviours in different seasons. we all recapitulate frogs as embryos: sperm tadpoles, gills and tail grow and disappear (i know this is a discredited theory scientifically speaking, but its 'true' as a symbol, says upg). deer recapitulate this process yearly, growing first vulnerable velvety nubs and then majestic branches, like trees or lightning bolts. we all have daily and monthly and yearly cycles, but few of us wear them as prominently as the deer. of course, only male deer do this, which is something i havent worked out yet, but it is an intraspecies sexuality thing, similar to the more obvious monthly cycles of human females.

the deer spirit teaches us that change is real, but so is constancy. change is adaptation, and it serves the greater whole. the frog is more invested in change, as it alters its whole body, but it isnt dissociated from it like the deer. the deer is at one metamorphical (hm) and consistent. once again a mediator.

deer are also closely related to trees, since they seem to have trees on their heads. trees and antlers are related to hands, a human feature. i use a particular stump on a mountainside as an altar of crepuscularity because it resembles a deers head with antlers.

i think mediators are useful to me because i often deal with abraxas, who demands that categories be differentiated and opposites be synthesized. and also loki, who is a mediator himself, but is often too much to drink straight.

moose are also a symbol of canadas wild north. often they are used humourously, and they are a bit funny-lookin (think bullwinkle), far more so than deer. moose are also one of the more solitary of the cervidae. the moose is also known as the wapiti, and 'elk' in europe, while elk in north america refers to another large cervidae, one that travels in huge herds like wildebeest.

i hope that was interesting, and illustrative of how i use scientific, mythic, and popular literature in conjunction with field study in order to learn about animals spirits. my methods are similar for other spirits, although GODS sometimes assault me unwanted, and ANGELS manifest in their own way, seemingly independent of my desires. they all do their own thing, thats why i differentiate them.

someone asked what i meant by some of my biology-related sesquipedalianism. im not going to try and fit it into what i wrote before because you lot have done a wonderful job of making me re-evaluate it.

life exists on a number of 'levels'. one level emerges from the other, but also informs it. ref: great chain of being, i think ken wilber is good on this.

relevence: we think with our brains (OBVIOUS is obvious, or is it?). brains have certain physical principles that provide a structure for their dynamic activity. for example, the chemical 'weather' is provided by the brainstem. the 'cognition' takes place in the cortex, which can be thought of as a folded sheet of hexes like you might use in a role-playing or battle game. each hex represents a circle, the circle is the extent of a single neurons dendrites (think tree branches). and yes, it is largely two-dimensional here, although there are six (or something) layers (i imagine it varies by lobe). to see how the circles become hexes, think of the seed of life. anyhow, a particular idea, concept, symbol, melody, image, whatever, is represented in the brain by a 'line drawing' between these hexes. this line drawing can appear anywhere on the cortex (actually there are different territories where certain patterns are limited or favoured). the line drawing is dynamic, not static: its only meaningful when the lines are actually being drawn. for a more formal treatment of this idea, read the works of william h calvin, a gainfully employed neuroscientist.

these dynamic patterns are what some people call 'memes' because they can be passed on to another brain by communication. the pattern is not necessarily the same in the other brain, as its consensual meaning is acquired through different associations. some of these patterns are important or powerful or enduring or something, and thats what GODS are (in my fantasy novel of a life). loki was my first, he does not appear visually, but rather as laughter. sometimes i share the joke and sometimes im the butt. abraxas was my second, ze usually appears in the sky, surrounded by dragons. in other words, fractal fields. abraxas is armed with a spear and has the head of an insect. old pictures say its a rooster, but i saw those mouthparts and theyre a lot scarier than a beak (upg qualification). both these GODS only appear when they want something, which none of the other spirit types do. DEMONS want things, but they dont appear-- they sneak around instead. maybe demons are just sneaky gods, i dont know.

wow, that was epic. im missing valuable beer-drinking time for this! ciao!
 
 
electric monk
05:14 / 18.12.07
I think what 3110 is trying to say*, Mist, is that you should think about Moose for a while, do a little reading-up, and consider what Moose means to you and what it's appearance might mean for you. Do you identify with Moose's solitary ways? Admire it's strength and unique grace? The majesty of their antlers? The mother Moose's fierce protection of her young? Is there some quality that Moose embodies for you that you are currently lacking or seeking to develop? Consider it for a while. If you feel it's important enough, try some quiet meditations on Moose and see what you come out with. I think this will probably be of more value to you than knowing where Crowley placed Moose on the Tree of Life.

*As near as I can tell. With my mod hat: 3110700101, I think whatever worthwhile material is in your post is, sadly, being suffocated by a lack of cohesiveness and direction. I appreciate that you want to share your experiences, but all I'm getting from your post is this mad parade of frogs and moose and Bambi and GODS and ANGELS and memes and I just plain want to give up on the post entirely. If you're going to answer questions for people, please do so in a way that addresses what they've actually asked about and with as much clarity as you can muster. Thank you.
 
 
Olulabelle
15:55 / 18.12.07
i hope that was interesting, and illustrative of how i use scientific, mythic, and popular literature in conjunction with field study in order to learn about animals spirits. my methods are similar for other spirits, although GODS sometimes assault me unwanted, and ANGELS manifest in their own way, seemingly independent of my desires.

But really you said nothing at all to help Mist. In fact I think only one paragraph referred to Mist's moose question and all the rest was stuff about deer. If you want to talk about deer, start a thread on deer or contribute to the other existing threads about animal spirits maybe?

Mist, I can look up Moose (Mooses? Meece?) in Ted Andrews 'Animal Speak' when I get home if you would like.
 
 
Mistoffelees
16:29 / 18.12.07
That would be nice, Olulabelle. And apparently, it´s not a moose, it´s an elk. According to my dictionary, there´s a difference: a moose lives in America, the elk is European.

And this afternoon, I had another elk sighting. It was a DVD with an elk on the cover and in the title. I´ve pondered a bit about elks, and it might be their solitariness and independence, that´s supposed to mean something to me. But that´s not really it, yet.

And driver 8 and 3110700101, I thank you for your posts! I don´t know that much about these animals, I wonder if there are some at the two town zoos I could visit. And where would the elk be on the Tree of Life? The yod path, or would that be too obvious?
 
 
grant
16:42 / 18.12.07
Could you describe this animal?

Elks (which I think are what we Americans call moose, per 3011etc, above) have a runic significance: Algiz, which is really elk-sedge, a kind of sawgrass, but resonating with the animal the grass is named for.

No wonder they seem goofy - so much confusion around names and attributions....
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:04 / 18.12.07
Could you describe this animal?

No, I only remember there were two elks in my dream. They were angry, and one was even chasing me up a tree. I also had these antlers on my head. And I pacified the situation by plucking something down, that was hanging above me (there were corpses and other creepy things hanging on threads).
 
 
EmberLeo
18:04 / 18.12.07
Um, could you provide a link to a picture of the animal in question?

'cause it sounds like European Elk aren't the same as California Elk, for example, and I don't want to ramble off in the wrong direction.

In support of Mr. Numbers, I too immediately thought of my experiences with Deer (mostly Stags, in my case, but of various Deer species). 'Round where I live, that easily includes Elk - but California Elk, not Moose.

Still, the one big thing I got from the Antler Brigade most recently was that wearing antlers is a symbol of sacrifice. That is, the one wearing them is the sacrifice.

I didn't post that immediately in response to your question, because I don't know if it applies to Moose antlers or not. But I think it does apply to European Elk.

Also, in my experience, Animal Spirits don't stick with one particular species, and they don't change around based on Scientific Family/Genus/Species groupings. They change based on external form similarities, and, most of all, similarities in spiritual significance.

So I work with Rabbit... or is He a Hare? I don't rightly know, actually, and He says it doesn't matter, 'cause He's either or both. One of my dear friends works with Otter who prefers to be an Ocean Otter, but will happily be a River Otter, or even, if necessary, a Ferret.

So I suppose it's possible that Moose and Deer are close enough to share major areas of significance, depending on whose Moose, and the purpose of the communication.

However, those first few contacts are, in my experience, usually pretty clearly the "base" form of the animal. Shape changing to other similar forms as convenient doesn't usually start until after you've got that initial clue-by-four down.

--Ember--
 
 
Mistoffelees
18:35 / 18.12.07
Um, could you provide a link to a picture of the animal in question?



Thanks for the input, Ember! I don´t know, if the elks were more than just symbols in a dream. But that "me to be sacrificed" makes sense. I was part of a group in the dream. Maybe those others wanted to sacrifice me to those elks? And me plugging a corpse or something from the tree appeased them. That´s good food for thought!
 
 
Talas
19:20 / 18.12.07
Actually, to pick a small nit with 3110700101, wapiti is Cree for elk, North American elk (Cervus canadensis, the second largest critter in Cervidae).

Moose is a whole 'nother genus and species (Alces alces) within the deer family (and are the largest Cervidae). However -- and this might be where you got confused -- moose are evidently known as 'elk' in Europe.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:59 / 18.12.07
If they're just symbols in a dream, I'd suggest you do some stream-of-consciousness processing about what that symbol already means to you. Your brain isn't likely to bring up symbols you don't already know somewhere in there. Maybe symbols you knew but have forgotten. Maybe symbols that only mean what they do to you personally. But if you really never knew something at all how would it have gotten into a dream that was really, purely just a dream?

If, however, it was an encounter you happened to have with a Moose Spirit while in dream space, we're back to "read up on it". Personally, I do tend to take animals I've never really consciously thought about, nor dreamed about before as potential visitors, do some divination to confirm that I'm not on crack, and then research the mythical significance of the creature in question. I'm currently doing so on the subject of Kitsune.

But if you're really not sure which, do the brainstorming first, and then go researching (too late now, I suppose), so that you have a reasonable idea what you knew before you started looking. I mean, yeah, it could just be day residue you've latched onto for reasons that don't actually have anything at all to do with the mythical significance of European Elk, but then why'd you latch onto it?

Should all this be in the dream interpretation thread, then?

--Ember--
 
 
Olulabelle
20:33 / 18.12.07
No, because they also keep appearing for Mist in real life in certain symbolic ways.
 
 
eye landed
05:00 / 19.12.07
the most interesting aspect of this moose thing is now the confusion in nomenclature. its actually relevant to how animal spirits cross species categories, i.e. the names are analogous to the spirits.

also, i didnt mention the horned god, who i have never associated with a moose, and never worked with (hm), but now that im reading about him, im seeing depictions with a variety of different headgears.

driver 8, my sincere apologies. i shamelessly wrote that post in a state of arousal and completely failed to edit it, for the reason given at the end of it. i think i was seeing this thread as the random conversation area of the temple. i will don my pointy hat and go face the corner now.
 
 
electric monk
11:49 / 19.12.07
It's cool.
 
  

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