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Marvel Mythology Surgery

 
  

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The Falcon
20:05 / 05.03.05
I think those are all pretty much Bagley pics. He's alright sometimes, but, uhm.
 
 
Benny the Ball
20:51 / 05.03.05
They do realise that pretty much all of the people that they have chosen to motivate are famous for killing lots of people, right?

In fact, is Spidey the only non-killer there?
 
 
doctorbeck
11:25 / 10.03.05
so we have the son of satan (and i assume old nick himself), odin, hercules, the beyonder, celestials and lord knows what other high powered godlike beings in the MU, and i was just wondering

does God in a judeo-christian sense exist in the MU and could He beat everyone else in a fight? also what are jesus' special powers?

thanks
 
 
Aertho
12:03 / 10.03.05
Oooh! Oooh! Well, there IS the unseen guy the Living Tribunal reports to. So I would assume that's the closest thing Marvel gets to an absolute deity. Then again, didn't Reed meet God in the form of Jack Kirby a while back? The Phoenix Consciousness is maybe a universe's internal immune system, so that rules out that idea. Eternity may be the universe's consciousness, or maybe its Self archetype. I'm done.

Jesus is verboten, but we should really discuss "the Aquarian".
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:20 / 10.03.05
I think I remember an early 80s X-Men Annual where Special Guest Star Dr. Strange made some veiled reference to Jesus... he was leading a bunch of the X-Men through Hell (well, they thought it was Hell), and their first clue that the thing was a fake was that Colossus was able to bring down a gate. On seeign that Strange said something to the effect of "only the son of god can breach that gate, and you are not he, you big iron commie."
 
 
doctorbeck
14:29 / 10.03.05
so the pheonix force is not god, which makes sense, and it's existence does not preclude the possibility of god
and doc strange mentions the son of god (which figures if you have a son of satan) so at least one person in the know namechecks JC, or the son of some other god, but who in hell is the aquarian?

and yes like the idea that jack 'king of kings' kirkby is god, or at least the avatar for god that reed richards would see. i was wondering about Odin really and whether He believes in God or thinks he really is the Boss himself
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
14:44 / 10.03.05
Now that I think about it, when the Fantastic Four meet Kirby/God, Kirby takes a call from "his collaborator," so you presumably have to factor some sort of divine Stan Lee into the Marvel cosmology.

Which makes sense, I guess.
 
 
Mario
14:46 / 10.03.05
It's too painful to actually type, so go here

Tony Isabella wrote a character who was strongly hinted to be the big JC during his Ghost Rider run, but Jim Shooter hated the idea, and had someone else rewrite the finale to the storyline to make "The Friend" a demon in disguise.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:45 / 10.03.05
The Aquarian does indeed look like the famous white brown-haired and bearded hippie Jesus we all know -- I remember his entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe but I never read any actual stories with him in them.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:50 / 10.03.05
plus, Marvel has the Devil himself a.k.a. Mephisto.

I think Mark Waid made Neron the sort of DC devil analogue when he did Underworld Unleashed and then used Neron in The Flash a while back...
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:50 / 10.03.05
Now that I think about it, when the Fantastic Four meet Kirby/God, Kirby takes a call from "his collaborator,"

I just read that story and took the collaborator as both Stan Lee and the SATAN of the old Testiment... not the devil but the adversary of say THE BOOK of JOB.
 
 
grant
19:54 / 10.03.05
Gabriel, Devil-Hunter was a priest who got powers from *somewhere*.

I've only read about this guy, not read any of the stories, so I don't know how "the Asura" would stack up against angels.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
19:57 / 10.03.05
I just read that story and took the collaborator as both Stan Lee and the SATAN of the old Testiment... not the devil but the adversary of say THE BOOK of JOB.

That hadn't occured to me, but, wow, I like that reading of it.
 
 
doctorbeck
09:10 / 14.03.05
stan the man as satan? i like it, reminds me of the story about dikto leaving spiderman because stan wanted the goblin to be osbourne and dikto thinking it sucked as an idea, integrity vs a grinning permatan.

now as for mephisto, is he in fact satan himself? and is the son-of-satan the son of him, or is there another big bad out there?

religion seems a bit unmentionable in the MU bit i remember nightcrawler getting all existential when he met the beyonder, which was a good bit of thinking about what meeting uber-beings does to your sense of the world.
 
 
Spaniel
09:19 / 14.03.05
Of course the Beyonder and the Molecule Man are pretty godlike, seeing as they can do just about anything.

Well, the Molecule Man can do just about anything other than beat up the Beyonder.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:19 / 14.03.05
i like it, reminds me of the story about dikto leaving spiderman because stan wanted the goblin to be osbourne and dikto thinking it sucked as an idea, integrity vs a grinning permatan.

One man's "integrity" is another man's right-wing nutjob idiocy. Ditko wanted the Goblin to be just some random criminal, on moral grounds - the idea that it was Peter Parker's best mate's dad was just too upsetting for him. Does anyone really think it would have been better the Ditko way?
 
 
osymandus
10:34 / 14.03.05
"Of course the Beyonder and the Molecule Man are pretty godlike, seeing as they can do just about anything.

Well, the Molecule Man can do just about anything other than beat up the Beyonder. "

I think that turned out to be becuase their we're really 2 split beings of teh same thing (or some such ) , they merged became a cosmic cube then changed in to ... Kubic the cosmic blonde with long legs !!
 
 
doctorbeck
11:17 / 14.03.05
>One man's "integrity" is another man's right-wing nutjob >idiocy.

amen to that, defintiely prefer stan the mans version in terms of the ongoing spidey soap opera mythology.

all this mention of the cosmic cubes - also in that wonderful post to the awful aquarian character biog above, made me wonder at their omniopotence.

was really wondering if there is a God in the MU wouldn't it be cool if some of the big guns took Him on sometime?
 
 
Mario
12:26 / 14.03.05
Just a few corrections:

There is no real "Satan" in the Marvel U. Mephisto takes the role most often (as he did in the original Ghost Rider run) but there are others.

Daimon Hellstorm's dad is a demon named Marduk Kurios, who used the name Satan in his dealings with mortals. (Steve Englehart said he was actually Satannish in the Hellcat mini, but Marvel ignored that bit pretty quickly)

The blonde who was formed out of the merging of Molecule Man and the Beyonder was Kosmos, not Kubik. She was recently made mortal and lobotomized in the last Thanos series. In any case, MM had managed to free himself from her a while back, at the cost of most of his characterization
 
 
hachiman
13:25 / 14.03.05
The last i remember, according to secret wars and an old Thor annual, Molecule Man was the most powerful living being in MU, the embodiment of all forces within the MU is Eternity, who is ultimately outranked by the Living Tribunal, who judges over all the multitude of Eternitie analogues and their host realities and who in turn has an unnamed boss referred to as the Creator, i.e. God.
But (and this is where it get weird), according mto Infinity Gauntlet, the Infinity Gems which allow the user to control all within the MU are actually the re-incarnated heart and soul of the Creator, who committed cosmic suicide out of boredom and loneliness. Demons like Mephisto, Belasco, Satan et al are the leftovers of a failed experiment by the Creator, who were wiped out by the creator when the attempted to overthrow him , but found themselves alive again after the Big Bang.
Then theres the Galactus origin retold in JLA/Avengers, and the other stuff thats spoken of the above posts, GAHH!!..
Forget it! Is there a God in the MU? a better question is who cares!!
15 minutes i will never get back.
 
 
doctorbeck
14:57 / 14.03.05
hachiman your 15 minutes explaining how god is dead in the MU was not wasted, all that remains are some demons and high powered non-creator distant beings


so, an empty existantial MU it is and not even stan the man can write his way out of that one.

oh wait, no-one seems to stay dead for long in the MU do they?
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:50 / 14.03.05
except for GOD I suppose... maybe that's why they keep comming back. THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE for Marvel characters.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
18:03 / 14.03.05
surely Wolverine must be God in the Marvel Universe.........with Adamantium of course

God could re-create the Universe down to the last atom and totally obliterate any remnant of Wolvie .....but with his mutant healing ability, he would come back and tear God a new one

Or maybe the Hulk.....if God pissed him off enough, there is no reason why old Greenskin couldn't get strong enough to take over the universe


YES I am joking but I have heard similar ridiculous arguments put forward by the fans of these two respective characters.
 
 
Spaniel
20:01 / 14.03.05
Thanks for telling us you're joking, Joe. And there I was thinking you we're being serious. Silly I.

The god of the MU definitely has a massive head.



Whatcha reckon?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:32 / 14.03.05
Answering, cluttering up a couple of messages here.

The Aquarian does indeed look like the famous white brown-haired and bearded hippie Jesus we all know -- I remember his entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe but I never read any actual stories with him in them.

The Aquarian was Steve Gerber's version of "Superman", and he used the character as a bit of a jab at how DC was using the character at the time. When Gerber left, he became "generic naive alien" and went from looking like a hippy Superman to a white tunic hippy.

One man's "integrity" is another man's right-wing nutjob idiocy. Ditko wanted the Goblin to be just some random criminal, on moral grounds - the idea that it was Peter Parker's best mate's dad was just too upsetting for him. Does anyone really think it would have been better the Ditko way?

The biggest problem Stan had with it was they had spent so much time building up who the Green Goblin could be, he thought readers would feel cheated if it was just a random guy...and also, Ditko had used that device before, and Stan didn't like the idea of them repeating the same "twist" so soon.

Dikto left for a number of other reasons, though, and to say that he left because of that isn't quite right. Ditko and Stan frequently butted heads of the books, and if you read the early Spider-Man strips, you'll see that Ditko is credited as "plotter", mostly because he was no longer talking to Stan. The story is that he would do an issue, bring it in to the office for Stan to script, leaving Stan notes on what the story was.

The series changed a LOT when Ditko left...the "bitchiness" of the women softened considerably(just read the difference in Gwen Stacy once Ditko left...it's not even remotely the same character), villains became more mundane (Kingpin, Silvermane, Prowler and Rhino, for example), Jameson became more of a comic foil than a threat, and the biggest change in my mind, was that Stan softened the stance of the book toward its audience of teens and college students. Ditko always portrayed protesters as an evil that must be stopped, a sign that society was spinning out of control while Stan showed them in a positive light.

While Ditko was a better artist than Romita on the book, I much prefer Stan's plotting to Ditko's.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:47 / 14.03.05
The story is that [Ditko] would do an issue, bring it in to the office for Stan to script, leaving Stan notes on what the story was.

That was standard operating procedure at Marvel in those days, wasn't it? I've heard the same thing went for Jack Kirby, and possibly others. Admittedly, there were some (Gene Colan springs to mind) who needed a full-fledged plot to work from, but in many cases the artists were in effect "writing" the books, while Stan was just providing dialogue.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
21:35 / 14.03.05
thanks Boboss

Y'know it gets right on my tit to hear these Hulk fans talk

much more than it should for a thirty six year old anyway!

Continuing in this totally ridiculous rant of mine, I would like to explore these arguments

WARNING, TOTALLY POINTLESS NONSENSE FOLLOWS BELOW!!!!!!!!!


for example, you have probably come accross the argument

'The upper limits of the Hulks' strength have never been reached as he could conceivably keep getting more and more angry' (?)

let's see...............

Jarella was killed...the love of the Hulk's life, killed in front of him. One would presume that this would tick him off like nothing before or after

similarly

years later (before she was ressurected or cloned or whatever) Betty was killed ....again, I cannot imagine this happening wthout the Hulk reaching some upper level of 'annoyance' and ergo an upper strength limit


yet to hear the Hulk fans speak, something could conceivably make him even more angry than the murder of his most beloved person on the planet? Your guess is as good if not better than mine, as I am stumped


Wolverine's fans (with adamantium mind you ) are equally lacking in logic or as much logic as we can assign to such matters


For example, I am not a doctor or even that knowledgable about all matters human body BUT say for example Wolverine had the part of his endocrine system or nervous system, wherever the immune system is regulated, shot or destroyed

How would he recover?

a well placed bullet BANG right in the cranulog and taking out his whatchamacallit.....how would he recover?

Or even the fact that he fought the Hulk!

fair enough, he has an adamantium skeleton but brain damage from blows is caused by the brain rattling in the skull as it is jarred by the concussive power of the blow not from the point of impact. So theoretically one punch to the skull of Wolverine from the vastly more powerful Hulk, should have enough decelerration/accelerative force to cause his brain to spin like a top in his head, even if outwardly, no apparent damage is done

even accounting for his recuperative powers, they are not fast enough to allow him to recover in time to stop a third a fourth and even Wolverine with adamantium, would be unconscious for sometime whilst his healing power went to work

I know I am ranting, I am tired
 
 
osymandus
21:47 / 14.03.05
Totaly agree on your rant , also what would happen if someone used white phosphurs on wolverine (he he).

Another thing about the hulk is he may get strong but he dosnt get any more skillful or even dextourius (im unaware of teh fighting prowess inherant in nuclear physicist but im guessing its not good ), in fact propably worse . So any skilled strong guy in his strenght class (Gladiator, Thor) Should really just knock the seven bells out of him .

2 mins gone there i wont see again.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
22:16 / 14.03.05
mine was about ten so don't you worry!
 
 
Joetheneophyte
22:18 / 14.03.05
I'm laughing here, I'm thirty six......my eyes are like onions through too much internet use tonight and I have spent many minutes of my life, talking about the Hulk!

then again, it was good to get off my chest and I will enjoy the Hulk fans telling me how wrong I am!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:03 / 15.03.05
That was standard operating procedure at Marvel in those days, wasn't it? I've heard the same thing went for Jack Kirby, and possibly others.

According to a number of sources (Roy Thomas, Dick Ayers, John Romita and Gene Colan) the way Stan would give the artist a plot once he knew they could work his method was to bring them into the office, run them through the ideas he had (and in some cases act it out by jumping around the office), have them go home and draw it up, the inker would fix anything Stan thought needed to be changed, and then Stan would write the dialogue.

When both Ditko and Kirby were getting ready to quit, they just quit showing up at the office for the plotting sessions and drew it on their own, sending it to Stan when they were done.

John Romita has told a story about riding in the back seat of a car with Jack and Stan in the front seat plotting the next issue of the Fantastic Four, with neither of them really listening to the other one as they talked about what should happen in the next issue...and a LOT of people at Marvel believed at the time that the reason Kirby left was that Stan completely re-wrote the first "Warlock" story from the FF, and Jack was so mad, he decided to start talking to DC about working there. I don't know a whole lot about the changes tho, since I haven't read a decent article on what Jack's plot for the story was...but it wouldn't surprise me, as there were a LOT of panels where the dialogue doesn't match the art.
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:11 / 15.03.05
Which fits the 'how to write comics the marvel way' pattern, if everything I've ever read on the subject is true (DC tend to script a book, whereas Marvel plot, draw then script).

Didn't JLA vs Avengers imply that rather than a God in the Marvel universe, there was energies, a la chaos energy? Or did I just get so bored during that book that I wasn't paying attention?
 
 
_Boboss
09:24 / 15.03.05
the wakanda issue flares up again.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:38 / 15.03.05
that was so funny

loved the Wakandan line about the US being a 'backward' state


great stuff
 
 
Benny the Ball
16:57 / 15.03.05
here's a question. Way back Marvel ran a contest to create a new character for the X-Men. Was Jubilee the winning character of that contest, as she appeared soon after it ran? If not, who was?
 
  

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