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Marvel Mythology Surgery

 
  

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thirty/thirty
09:30 / 16.04.04
1: Why has Xavier never been able to find a mutant whose gift is spine-resonstruction or one who has the power of RoGain? There are mutant powers for every occasion, why not for these?

2: When the Phoenix reached down and chose Jean, it is said that it selected her because she was such a powerful mind. What about Xavier? Isn't he technically the most highly evolved consciousness on earth ever? Why pick some co-dependant, redhead with a daddy complex?

3: If Lilandra and D'Ken were twins and Lilandra and Xavier are psychic counterparts, wouldn't D'Ken also have had a similar thouht-buddy (maybe called Cassandra)?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:13 / 16.04.04
1. He lives on a planet filled with people like Tony Stark who can invent things to get around disability. He has a couple of doodads in his Shi'ar kitbag that allow him to walk. The Shi'ar already cloned him a new body once. The guy is a dick.

2. But Xavier wasn't flying in a space shuttle at the time. And isn't as hot. And I think it was retconned so that Xavier believed Jean had the potential to develop to be a much bigger psychic power than him. And there was that omnipathic Gamesplayer guy from the early nineties who was more powerful than Xavier but couldn't shut out any thoughts from all over the planet. And wasn't his son Legion more powerful but hindered by being madder than a sack of fatbeards?

3. No.
 
 
Mario
11:23 / 16.04.04
1. Chicks dig the smooth look.

2. Jean was already more powerful than Chucky...he never had TK.
 
 
Pan Paniscus
11:53 / 16.04.04
I've just started reading GM's Nex X-Men run, and as I haven't got round to reading all my flatmate's Byrne/Claremont telephone directories yet, I welcome this 'stupid Marvel universe questons' thread with open arms.

Okay, so, in the 'Imperial' trade, where the U-Men attack the school, they think there'll be no resistance since it's just "one uppity redhead and a bunch of students" or whatever left to defend it, having neutralised everybody else. So - where are all the other X-men, who aren't part of that core NXM team? Are they just off fighting different bad guys in other books, killed in Genosha, on annual leave or what?

Not being familiar with the series, I figured there were hundreds of these freaks all over the place, ready to leap into action at a moments notice. I realise that doesn't necessarily make for great storytelling, but just as background, why has Chucky X scaled down his operation (if indeed he has at all)?
 
 
TroyJ15
12:30 / 16.04.04
Well, the are two answers to that question...

1) Yes, for the stories sake all the other X-Men (Angel, Havok, Skin, Nightcrawler, etc., etc.)are off on other missions. You have to understand that the New X-Men cast are the only teachers in the mansion (that is Emma, Logan, Beast, Cyclops, Xorn, Jean and Charles) and therefore they are the only ones who really stay with the children, the teams in Uncanny are the striketeam primarly so they are always out do other stuff.

2) Most of the other X-Men who are not directly related to New X-Men are kinda crappy anyway and dont need to be heard of in the first place.

Now, I have a question (it doesnt have to be X-related right?)...
Where did Galactus come from. I heard he was an average sized alien first, but where is his origin.
 
 
tituba
12:33 / 16.04.04
good point, chimpo. that is exactly what i've been wondering for a couple of years now. in situations like the
Mutant Massacre or during that onslaught "saga" or that whole gathering of the twelve in the desert, in which
the fate of the mutant/human populace is at stake, where are all the other mutants. When they were
fighting Apocalypse, you'd think the x-men that weren't busy with something else or who weren't featured
in anoter book, could at least get off of their collective fat asses and help save the planet.
 
 
Mario
12:50 / 16.04.04
>> Where did Galactus come from. I heard he was an average sized alien first, but where is his origin

It's been told a few times, mostly in Surfer or FF.

Galactus was originally Galen of Taa, the last surviving being of the previous universe, which was collapsing in the Big Crunch. He was contacted by the sentience of that universe, who transformed him into the fashion nightmare we know and love.
 
 
diz
13:17 / 16.04.04
And I think it was retconned so that Xavier believed Jean had the potential to develop to be a much bigger psychic power than him.

that wasn't a retcon, or at least, if it was, it wasn't recent at all. Jean's been on her way to surpass Chuck for a while.

anyway, i still maintain that the Phoenix didn't reach down and choose a pre-existing Jean, but instead created Jean Grey as a vessel and wrote her into the MU's history retroactively.

Galactus was originally Galen of Taa, the last surviving being of the previous universe, which was collapsing in the Big Crunch. He was contacted by the sentience of that universe, who transformed him into the fashion nightmare we know and love.

hey, Galactus' look works for him! i mean, i couldn't pull off that helmet, but that doesn't mean the man shouldn't go for it.

anyway, yes, Galactus was Galen of Taa, a space explorer from a civilization from the universe that preceded ours. as that universe collapsed in its Big Crunch, Galen went in and encountered the sentience of that universe (basically that universe's equivalent of the MU's Eternity). when our universe exploded outwards in the Big Bang, Galen emerged as Galactus.

AND HE HUNGERED MIGHTILY!!!

but i suppose that last bit goes without saying.

It's been told a few times, mostly in Surfer or FF..

most recently, it's a pretty big part of JLA/Avengers, which, by the way, kicked serious ass.
 
 
Pan Paniscus
13:22 / 16.04.04
Cheers Troy! Thanks for that.
 
 
Sax
13:36 / 16.04.04
Why does Bucky stay dead?
 
 
Pants Payroll
13:47 / 16.04.04
Galactus' reason for existing had always been in question, or even defended, as if he had some higher purpose. I was reading an interview with John Byrne where he outlined the rest of his unfinished "Last Galactus Story" that ran in Epic in the 80's. In the far future, as the universe is collapsing on itself, Galactus releases all the energy he's accumulated by eating all those planets over the past gazillion years and causes the next big bang - creating the next universe, in which his herald, Nova, becomes the next "Galactus", to serve the same purpose. I thought that was pretty cool.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:48 / 16.04.04
Jesus, at this rate, somebody'll be asking how come Apocalypse Now wasn't a ten-minute movie about Kilgore's helicopter squadron just illegally crossing the border into Cambodia nd blowing fuck out of Kurtz's hideout, incidentally killing all witnesses. Honestly.

Psh. Cynics.
 
 
Pan Paniscus
13:56 / 16.04.04
If I'm threadrotting here, then tell me to fuck off, cos this isn't to do with continuity at all (or even 'The Marvel Universe' as such), BUT...

...why did Marvel decide to start doing all their lettering lower case? I suppose it might just be as simple as "Because it looks COOLER, dummy" (although for the record, I don't agree), but if so, who made that decision and on what aesthetic grounds? Or is it so they can fit in more speech per bubble? And if that was the case, couldn't they have just asked the writers to write fewer words?
 
 
Mario
14:25 / 16.04.04
Remember...he was a teenage "mascot" of a bunch of soldiers, one of whom liked dressing up. He actually came back 5 years ago, but keeps a low profile.

Seriously, tho...I think it's because some deaths (Bucky, Uncle Ben, the Waynes) are considered so fundamental to the way a character was created that bringing them back borders on heresy.
 
 
Mario
14:26 / 16.04.04
>> And if that was the case, couldn't they have just asked the writers to write fewer words?

Chris Claremont?
 
 
houdini
15:25 / 16.04.04
I will now bore you on the subject of the Phoenix. Be warned.

Iteration 0

Originally, the transformation of Jean Grey into Phoenix in the space between Uncanny X-Men #'s 100 and 101 was meant to have happened thus:

Jean flies a space shuttle through a particularly deadly radiation storm. The shuttle's shielding is damaged. So she forcibly stows the other X-Men in a shielded compartment and pilots the ship down herself (having telepathically learned to fly off of somebody). The radiation storm does what all good radiation does in the MU: It gives her Real Ultimate Power.

The saga of Phoenix, then, is that by an accident Jean Grey became this incredibly powerful being, and what it did to her. As she channels greater and greater levels of TK she begins to lose it more and more, till she freaks out completely, flies off into deep space and munches on a few stars, including at least one with inhabited worlds.

She then comes back to Earth for a final showdown and, of course, the X-Men talk her out of it. Just when it looks like Scott has persuaded her not to eat everybody, Xavier steps in and mindblasts the bejeesus out of her, placing mental blocks over her power so she can keep it blocked forever.

Iteration 1

Except.

Iteration 0 didn't even make it out of Marvel editorial. The reason was that then Ed-in-Chief Jim Shooter insisted that Jean "has to die". Shooter's reasoning, back at the end of the 1970's, was that heroes don't kill. This was still pretty canonically enshrined in the MU in those days. And Jean wasn't just an accidental killer. She had wantonly destroyed an entire inhabited world. Simply getting a quick hypnotic addiction-fix from Chuckie and saying, "I'm sorry" would not be enough, Shooter felt. So he insisted that Claremont and Byrne end the story with Jean's death.

To be honest, he was perfectly right. If Jean hadn't died then no-one would look back on the Phoenix Saga as a particularly important or moving part of X-Men history. The willingness to put a character through so much trauma and turmoil, and then to end with a moment of (what was intended to be) genuine tragedy, is one of the things that distinguished X-Men from its competition of the day.

So right after Xavier's given her blocks, the Shi'ar empire show up and put Jean on trial for genocide. Xavier invokes the ancient rite of trial by combat to which all super-advanced interstellar empires must still adhere, and the X-Men are pitted against the Imperial Guard. The "arena" is the Blue Area of the Moon so that Uatu can step in to say pithy things at the end. Of course, the Impies club the X-Men down pretty savagely till only Jean and Scott are left, at which point Jean loses her shit, breaks through Xavier's wards and turns back into Phoenix. The X-Men wake up and fight her a bit more and then, fearing that she is about to kill her friends, she commits suicide with the last of her human will.

Jean Grey, formerly known as Marvel Girl, later known as Phoenix, was dead.

Iteration 2

Flash-forward to the late 1980's. Claremont was still toying with the "dark future" that he and Byrne had introduced in 'Days of Futures Past'. He brought back Rachel (a redhead of unknown origin from DofP who had mindswitched Kitty Pryde's adult self with her teenaged self in that original story) and had her physically return to the present day. In short order, Rachel was revealled as the daughter of Scott Summers and the Jean Grey of her world, who had become Phoenix but kept control of her mind and powers. Shortly thereafter, Rachel claimed the power of the Phoenix for herself.

Quite how this was supposed to work was anyone's guess. But it might be related to...

Iteration 3

"I sometimes think that in mutant heaven there are no Pearly Gates, merely revolving doors."
- Charles Xavier (written by Peter David)

Also in the late '80's the bright sparks in Marvel Editorial decided to add a third X-title to the roster of Uncanny and New Mutants. The title, X-Factor, was to feature the five original X-Men. Of course, Bobby, Hank and Warren hadn't been near the team in ages. Scott had left the X-Men (see below) so could be recruited. But Jean was dead.

Hey, no problem.

So this was where the meaty retcon comes in: Jean Grey, of a sudden, was not the Phoenix. Instead of being a human being granted power by an incomprehensible cosmic accident, Phoenix was now suddenly an energy being, a "celestial avatar". Turns out that she'd come to Jean during that gap between Uncanny #'s 100 and 101 and offered to switch places with her. It wasn't Jean's intelligence or power that attracted the Phoenix to her. No, in typical X-Men style, it was her passion for life, and her love for and commitment to her friends. So the Phoenix placed Jean's radiation-burned body inside some sort of cocoon and then created an exact duplicate of her flesh for itself to wear. The shuttle came down in Jamaica Bay. And then the Phoenix cheated on the deal. It burst out of the water, pretending to be Jean, and left the real Jean down there in her cocoon.

So now it wasn't Jean but some weird energy-being clone of Jean which had either tricked itself into thinking it was Jean or had forgotten that it wasn't Jean or maybe was just a really compulsive liar. And it was responsible all the time for everything the Phoenix did. So Jean, the real Jean, was still in her pod in Jamaica Bay, still Marvel Girl, never did any of those cosmic things, and could be fished up at leisure, morally exonerated.

We have Kurt Busiek to thank for this particular wonder of continuity.

Iteration 4

The other effect of the retcon, beyond ensuring that Jean had never been Phoenix, was to redefine the Phoenix as this energy being. People started talking about "Phoenix force" an unnecessary amount. And it wasn't clear how much consciousness the Phoenix had at different points.

This was important because of Madelyne Prior.

Before the Jean Grey retcon ever started, Claremont had decided to celebrate 25 years of X-Men (ca 1988) with a thematic reprise of the Dark Phoenix story. With this in mind, he brought back the villain Mastermind, who had been responsible for corrupting Jean and turning her into "Dark Phoenix" in the first place (long story). He also introduced a new girlfriend for Scott - Madelyne Prior, a woman who was an exact double of Jean. More spookily still, Madelyne was an amnesiac, having walked as the sole survivor from a burning plane wreck on the exact same night that "Jean" committed suicide on the moon.

Boy, the guys who wrote Dallas didn't know what they were missing.

Scott and Maddie met, fell in love, defeated Mastermind (who had of course ensorceled Scott into thinking Maddie was the Phoenix when, in fact, she wasn't) and got married. Scott left the X-Men and they moved to Alaska to work as pilots for some hauling firm. Shortly after, Jim Shooter (or possibly Ann Nocenti) called him up and mentioned that the 100% Real Jean was back, and going to be appearing in X-Factor. So Scott Summer did the shittiest thing of his life: Abandoned his wife and newborn son and went running off after the girl he used to crush on in high school.

My opinion

The trouble is that any one of these follow-ups to the original Phoenix story might have worked. In the manner of sequels, they wouldn't've been as good, but they were all passable ideas. But to have the energy being, the original Jean, the mysterious body-double and the future-daughter from alternate Earth all running around at the same time ... well, that was just asking for trouble.

There was just too much, and something had to give.

Iteration 5

Where Claremont had originally planned to go with Madelyne Prior I will never know. Maybe no-one will. But with Phoenix and Jean out there, it was decided she just couldn't take the competition. So Marvel turned her into a villain, then killed her.

It turned out that Scott had always been under the manipulation of a bad old villain named (brilliantly) "Mr Sinister". He was obsessed with Scott for various pseudo-mystical reasons, and 'cause he had a whopping vulnerability to Scott's optic blasts. How inconvenient. Sinister had long ago decided Jean Grey and Scott could produce the Perfect Child, so he swiped some of Jean's DNA to study. Then when "Jean" got herself inconveniently killed he decided he'd better go to his backup plan: He grew himself a clone of Jean and named her Madeline Pryor. ("Prior" -- get it???)

Now the clone (somehow) existed by the time when Phoenix committed suicide on the moon. The traumatised Phoenix entity left its (now defunct) mortal shell and set off to find and free the real Jean, returning to her the "life essence" and memories it had borrowed. Didn't happen though. Instead, the poor cosmic dearie got a bit confused and ended up finding Maddie, infusing her with a (comparatively small) portion of its power and a whole bunch of repressed memories.

Power and memories both then lay dormant for many years, until they were drawn to the surface by the whims of the almighty plot.

There were these demons, right, and... oh god. I don't think I can go through with this. Madelyne becomes eeeeeeeeeeeeevil, okay, dresses up in some extremely dodgy lingerie (designed by Silvestri, I believe) and starts calling herself "the Goblin Queen". Yeah, I know. This was the period where Claremont was unrestrainedly getting his perv on. She and Sinister fight the X-Men and X-Factor and at the end of the day, Maddie dies, but not before returning to Jean the "life essence" and memories that the Phoenix had borrowed all those years ago. Sinister gets blasted into component atoms by Cyclops (in a particularly graphic "flaying" visual by Walt Simonson, quite cool, really) and manages to stay dead for almost 3 years before Peter David brings him back in a bit part in X-Factor.

So.

Exeunt Sinister. Yay. Exeunt Maddie, and "Phoenix". And the one good effect of all this was in cleaning up an assload of loose threads. Jean finally has all the memories of all three characters. So she effectively is all three characters, but without moral stain. So Jim Shooter can let her live. And she can function in stories that would've required any of the three of them.

Iteration X

Now if they'd only left Rachel Summers alone....

To be fair, Alan Davis took quite a good stab at dealing with Rachel and the Phoenix during his run on Excalibur. But there was just too much crazy mojo flying around the MU in those days. Plus, the Lobdell era didn't do anybody any favours with regard to Phoenix either. This was where I stopped reading, so I can't really keep track of things, until...

Iteration Y

Thank God. Grant Morrisson writes X-Men, invokes "superconsistency" and throws out all of the above garbage. The Phoenixes (Phoenices?) now become a more caballistic version of the Green Lantern Corps, talk about crown chakras and operate in a wholly different way.

And we finally get a Phoenix who really is Jean Grey to boot; something we haven't had since Claremont and Byrne created this whole mess in the first place....
 
 
Mario
15:36 / 16.04.04
You left out Bonita "Firebird" Juarez, who had a similar shtick to Maddie....she received her powers at the exact same moment Phoenix died. Turned out later it was a coincidence....
 
 
SiliconDream
15:51 / 16.04.04
And don't forget that a "Maddie" came back in X-Man, to be revealed (under Warren Ellis and Steven Grant) as an alternate-universe Jean Grey, and it turned out that a whole bunch of universes have Jean Greys and they usually become power-mad psychos. Having nothing to do, apparently, with the Phoenix force.

Then Nate Grey blew her up. Which was good, because by that point he'd been macking on an alternate version of his mom for a couple of years.
 
 
diz
16:46 / 16.04.04
Then Nate Grey blew her up. Which was good, because by that point he'd been macking on an alternate version of his mom for a couple of years.

just for fun, i'm going to throw in the fact that Nate, himself, was the child yet another alternate timeline Jean Grey, and was in some sense an alternate version of Cable himself. Cable being Scott and Maddie's son, sent into the future as a baby to be raised by a cult founded by Rachel. if i recall correctly, the main timeline Scott and Jean went forward into the future on their honeymoon or something to raise baby Cable, that is before he was sent back in time to the present to fight Apocalypse, who used to be Mr. Sinister's boss and gave baby Cable the disease which forced Scott to send him into the future in the first place.

did you know that when Bob Weinberg was writing Cable, he was planning on saying that Apocalypse was Scott's brother/Cable's uncle/Jean's brother-in-law, sent back in time as a baby to ancient Egypt? thankfully, he was canned first.

so, Nate Grey was hitting on alternate-universe Maddie, who in our universe is a clone of Jean, who, from Nate's perspective, is an alternate universe version of his mom from his home timeline, which is ruled, incidentally, by Apocalypse who was very nearly his great-uncle.
 
 
Metal_Jesus
16:47 / 16.04.04
1)Why does every villain fall in love with Storm?

2)Why can Chris Claremont not see the difference between writing powerful women and physically powerful women?

3)Why does any time people ask about comic book fights hardcore Marvelists will come out with power levels and insist on straight hand to hand fights? Wasupwitdat? Hello Lucifer and Constantine calling!
 
 
diz
16:49 / 16.04.04
oh, and did we mention that Scott's dad is also, for no particular reason, a space pirate?
 
 
Aertho
17:23 / 16.04.04
Yeah, a space pirate dating a humanoid skunk with really bad grammar.
 
 
Aertho
17:25 / 16.04.04
And Metal Jesus, the answer to question number 3 is becasue they're all being affected in some way by the rogue bacteria DNA in their bodies. Sounds crackpot, but Sublime is my favorite villain EVER.
 
 
Mario
17:27 / 16.04.04
> 1)Why does every villain fall in love with Storm?

Leather bikinis.

> 2)Why can Chris Claremont not see the difference between > writing powerful women and physically powerful women?

Leather bikinis.

> 3)Why does any time people ask about comic book fights
> hardcore Marvelists will come out with power levels and > insist on straight hand to hand fights? Wasupwitdat?

Insufficient leather bikinis.

Alternatively, because the nature of the serial medium is such that no character can really explore the full potential of his or her powers (since, if they did, most of the villains would be beaten in a page, tops). So, battles are usually decided by the "last one standing" rule.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:44 / 16.04.04
God, Houdini's post is amazing.

Sax Why does Bucky stay dead?

He doesn't. Peter David brought him back in The Incredible Hulk, revealed he was an immortal that mainly tried to rule a top secret, vaguely beneficient organisation called the Pantheon or somesuch, but every fifty years would sneak off for a while and have adventures before faking his death and returning to the secret mountain lair. Not surprisingly it all ended with the plane he was in being destroyed, killing him once and for all... or did it?
 
 
diz
19:06 / 16.04.04
He doesn't. Peter David brought him back in The Incredible Hulk, revealed he was an immortal that mainly tried to rule a top secret, vaguely beneficient organisation called the Pantheon or somesuch, but every fifty years would sneak off for a while and have adventures before faking his death and returning to the secret mountain lair. Not surprisingly it all ended with the plane he was in being destroyed, killing him once and for all... or did it?

i didn't know that, either. i was going to say that someone needs to keep Doug Ramsey company, but didn't Doug come back at some point anyway?
 
 
SiliconDream
19:12 / 16.04.04
Well, Warlock (the technorganic alien, not Adam Warlock) came back in a Doug Ramsey-like form during the Ellis Excalibur run, but they made a big deal about him not being Doug. Although possibly they changed their minds on that later, at which time I was no longer following the book.

Dunno if he showed up elsewhere.
 
 
Mario
21:53 / 16.04.04
Warlock had his own title for a bit (part of that M-Tech) thing, where it was basically decided that Douglock = Warlock, but he has Doug's memories. I did some research for Louise Simonson for that....
 
 
fluid_state
22:36 / 16.04.04
Bucky ran the Pantheon? Man, I'm so glad I dropped that title when I did. Between that and Houdini's post, this thread is a goldmine of geekery.

Why did the second series What If? suck so bad? Wolverine, Lord of the Vampires? And why did they never follow up on the 1st series What If with Conan the Barbarian joining the Avengers?
 
 
ThePirateKing
22:47 / 16.04.04
Thanks hondini - Amazing post and much enjoyed.

My question is this: Can anyone explain to me that stupid stupid Iron Man plot line where he went bonkers, betrayed the Avengers, and was replaced by his younger self from the future??? (I think it was around 7-8 years ago?)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:47 / 16.04.04
Is there a thread like this for the DCU, please.
 
 
ThePirateKing
22:57 / 16.04.04
And while I'm here what the heck is happening with Thor? I picked up an issue a couple of weeks ago and Asgard has been rebuild following its destruction over new York!?! This issue was set 150 (or so) in the future. Does Thor have, like, its own universe now ie separate from the rest of the Avengers & co?
 
 
black mask
23:40 / 16.04.04
Where are they now..?

Luke Cage: Power Man and Iron Fist were an unstoppable Marvel Team-Up. Racially, socially, kick-assedly they had all the bases covered. Motherfucker. Where are they now?

Dominic Fortune. That badass had a leather trenchcoat, leather gauntlets, leather riding-boots and a pair of broom-handle Mausers. Where the FUCK is HE now?

Deathlok. He's... just... He's a fucking ZOMBIE. Bionic! And... lasers? I mean... fuck! What the..? wHeRe iS hE NoW?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:05 / 17.04.04
Dom Fortune:

I seem to recall he was breifly in a nursing home or somethign with one of Aunt May's friends. I think his grandson is running around taking the family name, kicking ass, and never appearing in any recent books.
 
 
Metal_Jesus
00:23 / 17.04.04
I think Iron Fist and Power Man got busted by the fashion police and sentenced to life for their crimes against Super-threads.
 
  

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