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The miserable thread

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
15:12 / 05.03.08
Quite possibly not. I think the appearance of woman-hating is kind of a structural problem (on its own it's actually Specific Person Disliking, but there's a lot of men being angry at Specific People who are women) as Haus says. That doesn't neccesarily make it look any nicer when there's a bunch of testicle-havers decrying an ovum-haver.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:13 / 05.03.08
My quite possibly not is a cross-post. What Haus said.
 
 
Papess
15:18 / 05.03.08
Yeah, but I don't have testicles!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:21 / 05.03.08
Ah, but whereas being on the receiving end of the appearance of misogyny is generally a single-sex gig, creating it is unisex. See Triplets' pregnancy scare thread for some really impressive shoe-ins from a sister.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:25 / 05.03.08
Yes, good points.
 
 
Papess
15:29 / 05.03.08
I favour an acknowledgement of the person's own feelings, and commiseration with and engagement with said feelings, rather than a rush to judge the failings of the other party based on extremely limited evidence.

I don't care for what you favour, Haus. You should look to your own behaviour about judging on very little evidence.

I am commiserating with ABB from my own experiences of a person who takes no responsibility for their hand in a relationship.

Come to think of it Haus, you may have something there with the anti-women thing on Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 05.03.08
Ah, well. I tried. Another thread to avoid, I think.
 
 
Papess
15:40 / 05.03.08
You tried? Tried what, exactly? To stifle my womanly voice on this matter because I might have some relevant experience that implicates a man as the so-called "bad person"?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:42 / 05.03.08
Does Barbelith, however, uncritically take the side of members? Often, yes. Does it have a limited skill-set in doing so, and does this support often therefore take the form of telling the complainer that the complainee is evil, manipulative, worthless, immature and so forth? That it do, gammer, that it do.

Does it happen that a majority of people vocally unlucky in love on Barbelith are male and heterosexual? Well, yes, it does seem so. As a result of which, a lot of the dissing tends to attach to women, and often as a result of our constituency young or emotionally fragile women, which emotional fragility is acceptable in the person who is complaining about them, or indeed in the person being complained about when it was part of a setup that involved the complainer getting together with them. It doesn't seem, all round, very salubrious.


Yeppers.
 
 
Papess
15:46 / 05.03.08
Yeah, but not always, nhrn/TTS.
 
 
HCE
16:01 / 05.03.08
To stifle my womanly voice on this matter because I might have some relevant experience that implicates a man as the so-called "bad person"?

Dude, are you totally high? When has anybody once suggested that the problem is with your womanly voice or your experience? Haus and Allecto are both sticking completely to the content of posts. WTF?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:04 / 05.03.08
I knew of somebody who actually carried around small cards saying "you have just played the race card. please have it back." i thought that was a bit blunt, but that shameful attempt to paint me as a misogynist makes me rethink my position. which is a positive outcome, at least.
 
 
Papess
16:05 / 05.03.08
I am speaking from my own experiences and Haus seems to have an issue with it.
 
 
Papess
16:06 / 05.03.08
Paint you as a misogynist? You were painting me as one because I was empathizing with ABB!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:10 / 05.03.08
Sigh. OK. Dealing with flame out protocol one. Does the account of what has happened seem to anybody to resemble in any way at all what has actually happened in this thread?
 
 
Papess
16:15 / 05.03.08
What account of what happening? Can you be more specific?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:23 / 05.03.08
Let's just rewind to the point where Papess was comisserating an upset poster, and Haus was thinking about whether you get misogyny when a lot of men are comisserated about (what are talked about as) nasty women, because both of these are good things to be doing or thinking about and there's been some crossed wires.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:26 / 05.03.08
Of course. The account you have provided from around womanly voice onward. The account that inspired brb to ask if you were high. I am asking if anyone apart from you (and i suppose megs and mathlete - usual exemptions apply) felt that your reading had any relation to what had actually been written. It's a technique you might relate to triangulation.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:00 / 05.03.08
Ah, interpost. Yeah, Legba, you're probably right.
 
 
Papess
17:04 / 05.03.08
Haus, you state: And? Shall we spurn Eve, and all who give her shelter? The swine!...In response to me. When in fact, I said nothing of the sort about "those who give HER shelter".

Then you go on almost immediately afterward to elaborate further on the so-called "spurning of Eve" and the women hating on Barbelith because we "uncritically take the side of members". These members being invariably, male heterosexuals with romantic issues regarding women. Over-looking the fact that I have a similar experiences and I am a woman with issues in my past regarding a male.

I am not sure if it is because your comments about misogyny and the "spurning of Eve" that you made to me are so close together in tone and proximity, or the fact that you completely ignored that I am a woman with similar experiences regarding a man (which seem of little relevance to you for some reason), or all of the above, but it makes me wonder why you make these implications with me and then ignore my experience as a woman.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:14 / 05.03.08
Right. Does anyone else see any connection there? Any logic whatsoever? Note, for example:

Over-looking the fact that I have a similar experiences and I am a woman with issues in my past regarding a male.

Now, to overlook that I imagine I would have to be aware of it, but no such statement turns up until the womanly voice post, at which point the rubber of perception leaves the road of reality entirely. We have:

What about her? So, the relationship was all on you Bigger Boat, she has no responsibility for it? Gut feeling tells me that if she wanted to be friends with you, she would decide to be, despite what has gone on. But regardless of what has gone on, she has decided not to be and to torment you instead.

My personal opinion: she can't bloody well forgive herself for the way she treated you and so she either avoids you or blames you. Be careful, if she drinks, she'll be texting you, professing her love for you. Just remember, this is not about you, it's all about her. For someone like that, it's all about what they want when they want it.

That doesn't seem like something someone says if they have any maturity about how to behave in a relationship. Be thankful the other guy has to put up with her. Just take care of yourself.


Which has gut feeling and personal opinion, but no experience. That doesn't turn up until 18:29 barbetime, along the womanly voice and the specious claims of misogyny. As brb says:

Dude, are you totally high? When has anybody once suggested that the problem is with your womanly voice or your experience? Haus and Allecto are both sticking completely to the content of posts. WTF?
 
 
Papess
17:15 / 05.03.08
...my experience as a woman

More precisely Haus, my experiences as a woman that gives me some insight into ABB's situation, but insight which you largely have denounced.

Man or woman, someone who blames the other person in a relationship and doesn't take personal responsibility may not be evil, but they are lacking in emotional maturity.

Yeah, I think that was all I said in a nutshell.

Haus, do I have to go into my experiences in detail for you to just trust that I have had this experience? Or do you just assume that I talk out of my ass every time I post?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:20 / 05.03.08
Experience not mentioned, as I just identified, until it was convenient to claim that I, misogynist that I was, was stifling it.

Again, call out. Does anyone feel that Papess' account of what happened in this thread is accurate or complete, or based on an accurate and complete understanding of what was said in it? Please, come forward. Show no fear.
 
 
Papess
17:29 / 05.03.08
Dude, are you totally high? When has anybody once suggested that the problem is with your womanly voice or your experience? Haus and Allecto are both sticking completely to the content of posts. WTF?

Brb, both of them have quoted me and reacted to my "commiserating" (which directly relates to my experiences). However, I take more issue with Haus for bringing up the idea of misogyny after suggesting that I was "spurning Eve".

Also, I didn't mean the problem was stated as being with my voice as a woman, it's just that it was distorted and denounced.

Oh Haus, DO I HAVE TO MENTION THAT I HAVE HAD THESE EXPERIENCES FOR MY OPINION TO BE VALID!?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:29 / 05.03.08
Ah, so I have to work on the assumption that you have experienced... everything of which you speak? And can relate that experience precisely on the strength of a paragraph of description, identifying who is in the wrong and how? And if I don't, I am seeking to stifle your womanly voice? And that this entitles you not to read what I write - citation - and then, when called om that, claim that there is no need to do so, since it is "contrived verbosity" - citation. Thus stifling my voice?

Fair enough. I don't at this point expect you to take much on board from me, stifler that I am. what I am asking is if _anyone_ else sees what happened in this thread the way you do. Anyone at all. For I fear we see it very differently, and I may need to be corrected.
 
 
Papess
17:39 / 05.03.08
Ah, so I have to work on the assumption that you have experienced... everything of which you speak?

Oooh, no Haus. You should definitely interrogate me in-thread when I am trying to console other member so that my comments and opinions become mute and over-shadowed by your oh-so lofty ideals about how we possibly, maybe, could be demonizing women.

*sigh*

There is a certain subtle irony here, considering that I am a woman.
 
 
HCE
17:41 / 05.03.08
Ok, look, I'm sorry I asked if you were high. That was rude of me, and I know better than that. I apologize. What I should have said was that I absolutely do not see any validity or relevance whatsoever in anything you've written here about Bigger Boat's post, or Allecto & Haus's reaction to that post and the subsequent ones.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:42 / 05.03.08
I don't recognise the term "demonise", but if anyone, anyone at all, thinks that this is accurate, they are please invited to say so. Here or by PM, it's fine. At this point, the views of the world are so at variance I do not believe both can be correct, and while I believe mine to be closer to what has actually happened, I see no profit in defending it beyond the point of reasonable usage of time, which I think has already happened.
 
 
Papess
17:49 / 05.03.08
Thanks for the apology, Brb. I understand. However, I am responding to Haus, specifically. I am surprised that you can't see how Haus makes implications about my responses to ABB - "spurning of Eve" and so forth - and then goes on to further that implication with a talk of misogyny, which, unless connected to my posts and his responses to me, woulkd be largely out of context.

Haus...you brought up the word "evil" a few times. Demons characterize evil. I thought it fit.
 
 
A Bigger Boat
18:12 / 05.03.08
*sigh*

Ok look guys, I was/am feeling miserable. This is the miserable thread. I just wanted to bash out what, specifically, has made me thus.

I don't think my post implies "good guys" "bad guys" or "evil" in any of its forms - it's just a bunch of unfortunate shit that's happening to me at the moment. And once again, I do bear part of the culpability for this.

I could give a blow by blow account of a monumentaly self destructive 12 month relationship as I see it, but I didn't think that would help the quick "miserable" fix that i thought this thread supported.

If I had, then some of you may have come to some of the same personal opinions of Papess. She's bang on the money. You would also have come to the conclusion that I in turn also acted abominably in my own way. I am guilty of behaviour that, when the rock bottom crash came, I viewed as appalling, so I was not trying to cast sides.

Yes, she's a girl and I'm a guy - over that I have no control.

I'm not a regular reader of this thread or this board so if I in any way contributed to a muted form of woman bashing then I apologise. I just happen to be a guy; that's how it played out in my dear old ma's womb. I was just exasperated and unable to deal with a wealth of emotion. If I made any of my comments sound like I was trying to get people onside by decrying some "evil" woman then I apologise. I don't think anyone's done that - I think none of the responses that have had acception taken to them do that either.

For what it's worth I really appreciated Papess' replies. Thank you. Truly.

Starting a shit storm hasn't really helped my mood any so I guess this really is the miserable thread : )
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:21 / 05.03.08
Actually, ABB, none of this has been about your post. Sorry it caused it, though.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:01 / 05.03.08
Nothing to do with you ABB. This is just Barbelith being Barbelith. We all saw this argument over and over and over (and over and over and...),concerning a myriad of loosely related issues. People actually get a kick out of it, me supposes sometimes.

Yes, she's a girl and I'm a guy - over that I have no control.

Have more faith in modern science, dude! Plus, that all depends on how you define "girl" and "guy". There are controversies
 
 
HCE
00:19 / 06.03.08
Oh, there are? Do tell.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
04:24 / 06.03.08
Meggsy, the next time you feel moved to chip in on gender issues... just don't.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:57 / 06.03.08
some really impressive shoe-ins from a sister

I believe the correct form is shoo-ins.

Get it right, Haus. Tsk.
 
  

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