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Underground > Creation >

Jenny Everywhere Clearing House and Update Point

  
  

Page: 12345(6)7891011... 16

 
 
The Dadaist
02:26 / 02.12.03
The End. This is my last post about my comic. You could be less agressive. I´m a little angry.
 
 
moriarty
03:43 / 02.12.03
"Never heard of her."
-John Byrne on the suggestion that one of his sketches looks like Jenny.
 
 
Sax
06:12 / 02.12.03
Phew, it was rather inevitable this was going to happen at some point. Haus talks a lot of sense; even the loosest, most coolly anarchic comix collective has gotta have some editorial control, otherwise it's going to be all pictures of Rupert the Bear with his thing hanging out. And if Moz is indeed wearing his editor's hat, then he can't be afraid to say, in the nicest possible way, of course, that such-and-such strip didn't make the grade because, well, sorry about this, but it's shite.

I've outlined my reasons above why I didn't *like* the Dadaist's strip, which of course is purely subjective. I think the Dadaist should probably lick his wounds and go and write something else. I'd like to see Jenny in Argentina investigating the disappearance of one of her friends, for example. The rest of us should wait with bated breath for the next Jenny story. Anyone who's just written a Jenny story should get their tin underpants on.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:47 / 02.12.03
Byrne has gone crazy (unrelated to Jenny) -- that sketch doesn't really look like Jenny but I could see where someone might say it might. But that was a fun post admist all this furor and debate...

>> 'Though Jenny can be showcased in stories with serious intent, she was primarily conceived to be a pulp adventure character is a crappy argument,' speaking of a limited vision. In what sense, exactly, was Jenny so conceived? Which rulebook demands it?

Well, it doesn't seem like moriarity is saying you CAN'T do non-adventure Jenny stories, he just says that was the sort of main theme when she was created. It's hardly a 'rule' or a 'rulebook', from my vantage point.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:19 / 02.12.03
On a tangent, I noticed that in the latest issue of the really-very-good DC comic H-E-R-O, which features a device that can make anyone into a superhero, there's a would-be 'super'villain who uses the device constantly and then screws the whole thing up. He tells cops that he can become many different superpowered characters - after he's lost the device. In a hasty attempt to come up with a name for himself to make himself sound cool, like a real supervillain, he tells police he is called - 'The Shifter.' Because he can shift into many different superpowered characters.

Jenny influenced? Or just coincidence? Synchronicity at its best here, folks.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:52 / 02.12.03
Rats - this is what happens when Internet Explorer crashes on you twice while writing a reply to something, and then you come back 24 hours later to a thread - some people have already made your points, other people have announced that they're no longer going to be participating in the discussion.

The first point I wanted to make - which by bothering to quote what's actually been set out specifically in the past, moriarty has made more accurately than I would have - was that it's always been very clear to anyone who bothered to do the reading that there is a distinction between what you can do in a JE story, and what kind of story might get on the website. As has been hinted, and contrary to snipes about "censorship", far more freedom is allowed where Jenny is concerned than pretty much any other collaborative project one can imagine, because you can have her nuke Washington and non-consensually sodomise the Queen if you like, and it's STILL a Jenny Everywhere story - no less 'proper' or 'official' than any of the others. It's just that there is also this website, which showcases some Jenny Everywhere stories (as I understand it, the ultimate intention was never to host *all* of them there - hopefully, there'll be too many of 'em to make this feasible, relatively soon) - and I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that the people involved in building and maintaing the website exercise some kind of editorial control over what they put on that site. Again, to repeat, this is something they've been quite open about, both on the site and on this board.

The second thing I wanted to say was to the Dadaist, and Haus has sort of got there first: I think that all of the anotations you provide above are things which were reasonably clear to me on a first reading of the strip, and I don't think they actually serve to counter my own misgivings/criticisms. These misgivings may not be exactly the same as moriarty's, and they probably belong in the thread about this specific strip that's been started in Comics, but I wanted to explain them a little because I think Haus is slightly off the mark when he asks moriarty to just come out and say that he thinks 'New York Chaos' is "a bit poor".

To me this suggests an entirely aesthetic failing. I think it's the fact that here we have a massive act of violence being presented as "Just a subversive jape! A bit of a situationist prank! Messing with the masses' miiiiiinds! Tee hee!". This could easily have been avoided, mind you, by inserting a throwaway line about Liberty Island being evacuated and tourist-free at the time... Otherwise, you're not just representing a symbolic act of rebellion. You're turning killing a whole bunch of people just 'cos they happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time into something light-hearted and frivolous (it's not like I even get the sense that the humour here is meant to be read as dark or sick, which would maybe be a mitigating factor).

I don't think this is about politics exactly, either. A lot of people here don't need any persuasion to accept that the USA is responsible for innumerous acts of appalling terrorism, or that it's symbols are often invoked hypocritically. I suspect reaction would have been even stronger if Jenny were to appear in a comic in which she parachuted into Basra and started blowing away Saddam's boys. There's just something about the tone of 'New York Chaos' that bugs me. I guess the best way for me to express this, however harsh it may sound, is that it doesn't read so much like the word of someone who's informed and angry about the Desaparecidos, more like someone who really liked the lobby gunfight in the Matrix and the bit where the building blew up...

(And with that, I go to draft previously promised response to critiques of own JE work.)
 
 
moriarty
14:46 / 02.12.03
"...and I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that the people involved in building and maintaing the website exercise some kind of editorial control over what they put on that site. Again, to repeat, this is something they've been quite open about, both on the site and on this board."

I'm in the middle of my finals with no hope of finishing the projects assigned to me, so I'll have to get back to this later. However, I would like to clarify that there is no "they". Though there is more then one person working on the site, it has been agreed by all people involved in building and maintaining it that I have full editorial control.

All kudos or blame lie with me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:00 / 02.12.03
Oops - wasn't sure, and thought making you plural was less risky than failing to give more than one person relevant credit/responsibility!
 
 
FinderWolf
20:05 / 02.12.03
>> You're turning killing a whole bunch of people just 'cos they happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time into something light-hearted and frivolous (it's not like I even get the sense that the humour here is meant to be read as dark or sick, which would maybe be a mitigating factor).

As opposed to an intended 'frivolous' tone, I kind of read it as being a big clumsy "Fuck you, USA, let's kill lots of innocent people for fun and subversion" and not much more than that. And like you said, most people here aren't remotely Bushies or mindless Ashcroft patriots. When the Dadaist responded "YOU need a motivation [in the story for Jenny to] blow up the statue, I don't need one", I feel like he/she sort of unintentionally made our point for us about what some feel the story is lacking.

And I geniunely think the critiques here of the story have been honest, intelligent, not harshly made, and came out of an attempt to be constructive and respectful. It wasn't like 'Dude this sucks, you suck', it was something an editor might tell you when you submit your writing samples to a comic company, publishing house or newspaper (artists get the same critique from publishers, agents and comic editors - "this is not clear, you need to work on the anatomy here, the storytelling isn't clear in this sequence, etc.") - talking about motivation, characterization, tone, etc. etc. But that's just my take on it, and I'm sorry the Dadaist feels he/she is just getting mercilessly slammed with venom. But believe me, I know how it's no fun to get critiques of your work.

I agree with this comment:

>> I think that all of the anotations you provide above are things which were reasonably clear to me on a first reading of the strip, and I don't think they actually serve to counter my own misgivings/criticisms.

No one is saying the Dadaist didn't put a lot of work or thought into the comic. I saw a lot of those things on my first reading but they were more like the research or magickal intent that goes into a story, for me, they didn't serve up the story points that I wanted to see more of in the story. But no one is saying "you suck, don't come back here, you have no talent" - far from it. I think, of those who critiqued the story, 95% of them were like "There are some good ideas here, I would like to see more of this and this and I think it could use more clarity as to this and this." I would hate to think that an author who got some mature criticism would be offended and think we're all trying to drive him/her away, because I honestly don't think that's what happening here.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:41 / 02.12.03
To devil's advocate my own points and to stimulate further discussion: how is NYChaos different from the Grant Morrison short piece in THE INVISIBLES which has Gideon Stargrave and his sister, who he has an incestuous relationship with, dropping a nuke on England and destroying the whole country, even the world, just for a laugh? I feel like there is a difference but I can't really quantify it.
 
 
at the scarwash
02:32 / 03.12.03
One of the things that I think differentiates the approach of the Gideon Stargrave stuff from the Dadaist's piece is that it's admittedly a fantasy created by KM as a psychic shield--as well as a silly tribute to Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius. Also, it underscores the beginnings of KM's discomfort with his status as a fashion-whore assasin. Then again, it's certainly not the strongest part of The Invisibles, in my opinion.

Looking at the Gideon stuff as a tribute to Cornelius, there's also the fact that Cornelius was amoral in conception. Killing and incest were just something that he did, without questioning anything very much. Jenny, so far has been on the moral side of the coin. Someone who exists mulitdimensionally certainly could be im- or amoral in one or more of them--someone will certainly write a Jenny Everywhere vs Evil Jenny at some point--but we are given the usual hip (for the first time drug using), smiling Jenny hanging out with her friends and proceeding to murder people and blow shit up. What's more, I feel certain that we're intended to read it and go along with the tone of light-hearted violence. You know, they're just fascist Americans, anyway. So who cares?
 
 
grant
02:40 / 03.12.03
Surreality.
 
 
_Boboss
13:59 / 03.12.03
moriarty's second explanation was better.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:37 / 03.12.03
Does that mean you are no longer accusing him of censorship? If so, maybe you should apologise.
 
 
_Boboss
08:32 / 04.12.03
perhaps mention of the word was what drew moriarty into providing an alternative explanation to

'Though it was hardly the only reason why I vetoed the story, the part that tipped the scales for me was the cold-blooded murder that ended the piece.'

which i think could otherwise be indicative of a previously unmentioned stipulation that strips to be included on the current 'official' JE site must not include the main character exhibiting behaviour that the site-developer finds ethically, morally or politically objectionable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:41 / 04.12.03
So you were mistaken to have accused him of censorship? But you were right to have accused him of censorship, as only your mistaken accusation forced him to explain why he was not censoring, but editing?

What a happy accident.

Honestly, if people admitted their mistakes once in a while the world would be a far more well-adjusted place.
 
 
Sax
06:10 / 05.12.03
Now we've got the censorship/editing question settled, let's get this thread back on track, eh? Perhaps the issue could be the source of a separate thread to avoid threadrot, if people think it's worth exploring.
 
 
rizla mission
10:34 / 05.12.03
Sorry to immediately fly in the face of Sax's post, but I wasn't able to read this thread a few days ago when the big argument was going down, so I thought I'd just register my response and say I'm very much perturbed by the rejection of the Dadaist's story.. Obviously it's Moriarty's decision etc. and and I'm fine with that, but excluding the story because you find it's politics (expressed in a pretty hammerblow fashion though they may be) uncomfortable or too extreme not only undermines the 'anything is possible' ideology of an open source character, but also gives the impression that the Jenny Everywhere project is only open to good natured, un-challenging and easily digestable tales, the net result being, I'm afraid, blandness.

I'm not trying to restart the argument, but just feel the need to say that it's shaken my enthusiasm for the JE project somewhat.. thinking through the various ideas I've got floating around for Jenny stories, I have to ask "would they recieve a similar response?", and unfortunately conclude "quite possibly".
 
 
rizla mission
10:42 / 05.12.03
(..and somehow during the writing of that post I failed to state that whilst the NY Chaos story isn't exactly genius, I don't think it's of a significantly low level of quality in comparison to the other stories on the site to legitimately claim it's being dropped purely for reasons of rubbish-ness..)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:58 / 05.12.03
not only undermines the 'anything is possible' ideology of an open source character

...Except it doesn't, because the Dadaist's story still exists, it still IS a Jenny Everywhere story.

but also gives the impression that the Jenny Everywhere project is only open to good natured, un-challenging and easily digestable tales, the net result being, I'm afraid, blandness.

...Except it doesn't because it's been made very explicit both in this thread and before, that the project and the website are two different things.

Look at it this way: moriarty created a character, and now someone has written a story about that character behaving in a way moriarty objects to. And moriarty hasn't stopped this guy from doing that at all - 'New York Chaos' is still a bona fide Jenny Everywhere story, it's just not going to appear on the website which moriarty edits.
 
 
rizla mission
11:57 / 05.12.03
To a certain extent yeah, but I think whether we like it or not the website functions as the hub of the whole thing and, assuming he has no as yet unmentioned connections in the comics world, the Dadaist's work is unlikely to get seen by many people elsewhere.

And there IS an ideological issue here - surely a central assumption of declaring a character you've created to be open source is that you're handing that character over to the rest of the world to use as it sees fit, with the approval or otherwise of the original creator becoming irrelevant. Isn't the central point to try and cover as many perspectives, aesthetics and different kinds of subject matter as possible? Saying "no, sorry, i don't like that one, let's get rid of it" seems to go against the whole 'freedom of imagination' principle that the JE thing is based on.

I realise this discussion was done to death, like, a page ago, so I'll try and leave it there..
 
 
The Dadaist
01:11 / 09.12.03
My comic generates a lot of comments, haha. I like that.
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:14 / 10.12.03
What the fuck are you talking about? Do we have another troll on our hands?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:59 / 14.12.03
No pictures on this one, and a typo that is driving me insane - Spinning Jenny.
 
 
Sax
06:12 / 15.12.03
That's fucking genius. And I always knew that Jenny and Alf Tupper were one and the same in some strange, distant dimension.
 
 
moriarty
01:58 / 16.12.03
Aspiring comic writers have decided to make Jenny the next theme in their writing exercise.
 
 
moriarty
01:10 / 04.01.04
 
 
FinderWolf
13:50 / 05.01.04
Uh, moriarity? What does this strange picture have to do with Jenny Everywhere?
 
 
sleazenation
13:56 / 05.01.04
have a look at what the klingon is holding - looks like one of moriarty's jenny primers...
 
 
moriarty
15:52 / 05.01.04
Kanadian Klingons love Jenny Everywhere!
 
 
Sax
19:56 / 06.01.04
I think Kit-Cat Club's been abducted by Klingons.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:08 / 08.01.04
I haven't.

I've finished!

I have no idea whether it's any good or not because I have no distance from it.

Now all I need to do is scan the pages, work out how to turn them into image files of a manageable size, send them to Sax for approval, and find somewhere to put them. I hope this will not take another, err, eight months...
 
 
Sax
12:11 / 08.01.04
Woo-hoo!

Can't wait. Sure it'll be jennymendous. As to "putting them somewhere"... I think we need to speak to Persephone about the actual mechanics of getting the pages on to the site... if Moriarty thinks the story's suitable, of course.

But, well done you.
 
 
Bed Head
13:51 / 08.01.04
I’m really looking forward to seeing this. So don’t forget to give Barbelith a noisy ‘Hey!’ when it’s all scanned and hosted and available for a good reading.
 
 
lentil
16:24 / 08.01.04
Kit-Cat-

I hope this will not take another, err, eight months

Better than the 12 it's taken me to finish Impulsivelad's "Bacterial University"! And to think I originally said it'd be done in May 2003...

(Imp, if you're reading, it is indeed, finally, in the can. Expect an email tonight.)

... and now it can be told, with apologies to Sax and Anna de L who were casting about for artists a couple of pages upthread: My next Jenny story will be "Spores of Doom", scripted by our very own Grant Balfour! It's available to view on the jenny website, so that in a year's time people can compare the text to my illustrations and tut "ooh, I wouldn't have done it like that"

At this point I would like to mention that it was drunken cajoling by sleazenation that led to this tryst coming about, so any complaints from unattached writers should be hurled in his direction.
 
  

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