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Batman Begins

 
  

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FinderWolf
17:44 / 16.06.05
I just searched on amazon to answer my own question - there are no official DVDs, just bootlegs, because 20th Century Fox owns the 60s TV series, but Warner Bros. owns everything else Batman, so there are legal issues. Huh.
 
 
Seth
21:42 / 16.06.05
Outrageous. Not a bad word to say. They fucking nailed it.
 
 
Triplets
00:54 / 17.06.05
Just saw it! Fucking ACE!

Batman is scary in this one, Scarecrow scarier. Loved Morgan Freeman as the Q character. Makes more sense for Bruce to be a Theatrical Ninja God with others backing him up behind the scenes. Batman has to be the one out there punching people and it makes more sense for Bruce to excel at that than the science stuff.

Loved Ra's. Loved the ninjas. Didn't like any of the baddies being tied into the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Wayne, though. What is this, 1989?

Alfred was top, his friendship and love for Bruce truly came through in the witty back-and-forth they had going.

Batman, however, did not dance. And he should have.
 
 
CameronStewart
01:34 / 17.06.05
>>>Didn't like any of the baddies being tied into the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Wayne, though. What is this, 1989?<<<

Ra's Al Ghul isn't DIRECTLY responsible for the Waynes' murder though, he didn't pull the trigger like the Joker did in the Burton version. The Waynes' murder was a result of the depression brought on by Ra's' plan to economically destroy Gotham. He sneerily suggests to Bruce that it was philanthropists like Thomas Wayne who were getting in the way of his plan, but I never took that as a suggestion that Wayne was specifically targeted by Ra's to be executed.

I liked it. It didn't feel nearly as contrived as Jack Napier/Joker killing the Waynes.
 
 
Spaniel
07:29 / 17.06.05
Yes, Ra's wasn't directly responsible, Thomas Wayne wasn't targetted, but that scene works on an emotional level and I'd be very surprised if the intention wasn't to make the audience feel the hand of Ra's in Bruce's parents' death. The tension's being ratcheted up, we're approaching the end of the movie - emotional fever-pitch, etc...

Look at it this way, he was certainly responsible for trying to kill Thomas's dream of a better city, and I'm not sure Thomas's dream and Thomas can be neatly separated - this is Hollywood, afterall.

As for what I thought: excuse me while I wallow in fanboy glee. WOOOOO!
Sure, it wasn't perfect, but scary Batman is something I never thought I'd see. Scarecrow is bloody horrible, Lecterlike in his enjoyment of cruelty. Also, Batman as a proper badass - none of this getting beaten on by some big palooka crap. Wooshing out of the dark, grabbing some hapless baddie and dragging them into the blackness; he's like the Alien.

Oh, and the end. TEH END! Oooh, I need a sequel right now. NOW.


Fanboy rant over.
 
 
DaveBCooper
08:24 / 17.06.05
Saw this last night at an IMAX, and y’know, I think the format may have played slightly against the content, as I sometimes found myself having to move my head to see what was going on on the other side of the screen, if you see what I mean. May have to see it again on a smaller screen.

But Bale was very good, and the ongoing stuff about fear was well handled. Kind of wish Caine had talked with a more posh accent, but that’s probably more me than anything else. Liked the way it cheerfully jumped around between the past and present at the start, and am I right in thinking the Opera they left in a hurry was ‘Die Fleidermaus’? It seemed that way to me.

I know they filmed some of it here in London, but did anyone else think that the look of Wayne Tower and the train looked like the way the Docklands Light Railway goes into Canary Wharf? Maybe it’s just me…

Anyway, overall I liked it a lot. Quite a bit of stuff going on – which is a good thing, and let’s face it, previous Batfilms haven’t been overburdened with plot complexity – and I think a re-see will help appreciate it all.
 
 
CameronStewart
11:30 / 17.06.05
>>>Yes, Ra's wasn't directly responsible, Thomas Wayne wasn't targetted, but that scene works on an emotional level and I'd be very surprised if the intention wasn't to make the audience feel the hand of Ra's in Bruce's parents' death. The tension's being ratcheted up, we're approaching the end of the movie - emotional fever-pitch, etc...<<<

Oh yeah, no question at all, I agree completely. I'm just saying that it didn't feel awkwardly contrived, it worked fine for me.
 
 
CameronStewart
11:33 / 17.06.05
Oh, and the only movies you should see on an Imax screen are movies shot in the Imax format. I learned that lesson when I saw Kill Bill Vol.2 in Imax and it was terrible - the screen is too big to take in, your eyes dart all over trying to get everything, and the edges of the picture are blurred and distorted. Bigger doesn't always equal better...
 
 
Spaniel
11:55 / 17.06.05
Yeah, it didn't feel horribly contrived, unlike that awkward Napier business.

On the IMAX tip, a complaint about BB that I've seen elsewhere, and I'd like to echo, is that the camera could do with moving out during the fight sequences occasionally. I appreciate that Nolan was trying to plonk us in the thick of it, and that he wanted us to feel the baddies' confusion and fear, buuuut I found it a little claustrophobic at times - in a bad way.
I wonder if it had anything to do with the suit looking crap in wideshots.

I noticed Nolan tried to avoid any shot that showed the suit clearly. A good strategy, I reckon.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:28 / 17.06.05
and am I right in thinking the Opera they left in a hurry was ‘Die Fleidermaus’? It seemed that way to me.

I read somewhere that it was Faust, but I can't remember what my source was. Looked plausibly Fausty to me.
 
 
Triplets
14:01 / 17.06.05
Yes, Ra's wasn't directly responsible, Thomas Wayne wasn't targetted, but that scene works on an emotional level ... The tension's being ratcheted up, we're approaching the end of the movie - emotional fever-pitch, etc...

Yeah, I see what you mean there Boboss. Maybe I misunderstood that bit of dialogue. It was late - and I really needed to pee - so concentration was dipping somewhat. I can definitely appreciate it on the level of "trash-talk" to throw Bruce off and make him lose control... Vader/Luke stylee.

Just another excuse to see it again


Oh and: another thumbs up for the end.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:03 / 17.06.05
I think you’re right, Cameron – the IMAX screen size means you have to almost read the screen like a single comic panel, and it highlights the difference between the two oft-compared media.
Though maybe Ang Lee’s Hulk film would work to some extent on an IMAX.
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:42 / 17.06.05
I right in thinking the Opera they left in a hurry was ‘Die Fleidermaus’? It seemed that way to me.

If I recall correctly the Opera was Faust... based on reading the credits at the very end where they listed the characters in the opera.

The Bit about Wayne's father becoming a casuality in the ecomonic war being waged on Gotham was OKay but it sort of brought me out of the film and reminded me of the Burton version.

I would've also liked to see them pull ou for at least a couple of fight scenes consdiering the amount of training BALE went through to pull it off. It would'a been nice.

Must see it again but there was this once them that keeps poping up in my head. Thomas Wayne make the huge effort of having an affordable & effictive mass transit system created for the betterment of the City. 20 some odd years later his own son has that public Transit system distroyed "to save the city" and does so with his tank like SUV. Is there some sort of social comentary going on there?
 
 
Professor Silly
19:47 / 17.06.05
Something subtle I noticed:

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!











No mention what-so-ever of the Lazarius Pit...but didn't Ra's look utterly calm at the end--no fear. This implies that death holds no meaning to Ra's, and that he know he will be resurrected.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!END SPOILER
 
 
CameronStewart
20:19 / 17.06.05
SPOILER SORT OF CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST


Also, Ra's mentioned how the League of Shadows destroyed all the other decadent cities in history - "WE toppled Rome, WE burned London to the ground" - giving another sly suggestion of his immortality.
 
 
diz
23:43 / 17.06.05
SPOILER


i wasn't 100% sure that Liam Neeson was actually R'as. i thought it was entirely possible that Ken Watanabe was still R'as, and used the Lazarus Pit to resurrect himself, and sent Liam Neeson to Gotham. Bruce is the one who says that Liam Neeson was really R'as - maybe Neeson decided to roll with his misconception in order to direct Bruce's attention from the real R'as, Ken Watanabe?

though the Liam-Neeson-is-really-R'as switcheroo has a very cool Magnum P.I. vibe to it. "oh, no, Robin Masters wouldn't like it if you did that. Robin Masters would be very upset."
 
 
Billuccho!
00:23 / 18.06.05
Nah, Ducard is, was, and always had been Ra's. He did all the talking, all the work, he had all the brains and the skills... he even had the proper goatee!

Oh, right, and the movie *was* pretty awesome. Not perfect, but still great.
 
 
FinderWolf
04:17 / 18.06.05
Just saw this - really terrific film. I agree that the origin first half was better than the Batman second half. The one was terrific, great acting, mostly terrific dialogue...

Things I could have lived without (most of these are crowd-pleasing Hollywood laugh one-liners):

"Nice coat" Bats says to the bum who he coincidentally gave his coat to right before he leaves Gotham.

"Nice ride" says the dreadlocked guy to Gordon as Gordon drives the Batmobile.

"I gotta get me one of those!" says a dumbfounded Gordon when he sees the Batmobile. (also just out of character for Gordon who's not a guy prone to saying goofball lines)

I thought Gordon shooting down the subway tower pillars was sort of bizarre. I can accept him driving the car to Wayne Tower, but his shooting down the pillars was a bit weird for me.

While I liked the fast-edit-thrashing-around fighting in the beginning and middle of the film, the climactic fight with Ra's should have slowed down just a bit so we could savor and really get the final big fight between hero and villain.

There were times when Bale-as-Bats seemed to be pushing it just a bit, acting-wise. There were many other times when it was pitch-perfect. Bale overall did an amazing job. Michael Caine ruled as Alfred.

I think 70% of this movie was amazing, 30% could have used a little fine-tuning. But overall, an amazing Bat-film.

>> seeing the final result had me actually GIDDY in places.

Ditto. Despite my critiques, I was giddy and delighted in many many places too.
 
 
FinderWolf
04:22 / 18.06.05
Tom Wilkinson as Falcone rocked hard. Cillian Murphy was great as the Scarecrow, and man were those Scarecrow effects scary. The Joe Chill stuff was nicely done, although sitting there in the audience I found myself going "Wow, the name "Joe Chill" sounds really lame, fake and comic book-y when you heard it spoken aloud by real people."
 
 
FinderWolf
04:34 / 18.06.05
the scene where Bruce goes to confront Falcone was bad-ass and very well written and well acted. Ditto the idea of Bruce wanting to shoot Joe Chill at the hearing and being beaten to the punch.

SPOILERS (I guess it's fair game for all spoilers now, as of several posts above this one where major spoiler stuff is discussed, which is why I didn't label my posts spoilers, incidentally) - I like the idea of Lucius Fox being brought into the Batman inner circle, esp. since the idea is that he supplies Bruce with the gadgets.

I thought the final scene with Katie Holmes & Bale was trying too hard to be like the Peter Parker/Mary Jane graveside scene in the first Spider-Man...I get what they were going for but it just seemed like I'd seen the scene before, in a movie called Spider-Man, but this time it was the girl rejecting the guy because of a dual identity thing.

But Katie Holmes was surprisingly good and not as out of place as I thought she'd be here. She was written well, too -- and her two slaps on Bruce when she finds out he was going to shoot Joe Chill were suitably dramatic and rendered everyone in the theatre hushed (that whole scene did, in the car as they talked about it).

Bale's antics as goofy wacko playboy Wayne were terrific, too. Alfred and Bruce have a number of funny lines together that are genuinely funny, not just canned Hollywood lines begging for a laugh from the audience.
 
 
Spaniel
08:45 / 18.06.05
Diz, it's a bloody Hollywood blockbuster, there ain't a hidden agenda. If Ducard says he's Ra's Al Ghul he's Ra's Al Ghul, end of story - otherwise the twist carries no weight.

I suppose you could read it differently, but I'm pretty sure you're not intended to.
 
 
Seth
11:54 / 18.06.05
On the IMAX tip, a complaint about BB that I've seen elsewhere, and I'd like to echo, is that the camera could do with moving out during the fight sequences occasionally.

Disagreed. I've seen movies that focus on fight scenes about a million times over the last decade. I really liked that this movie was different, emphasising the effect of the character over more identikit cinema violence.
 
 
nedrichards is confused
12:23 / 18.06.05
I thought Bale quoting his Patrick Bateman performance in 'shallow Bruce' mode was a joy to behold. As for the destruction of the supercool monorail by a great trampling SUV thesis I thought that symbolicly that had more to do with disconnecting Waynecorp from the reform movement. Previously it had used the garb of reform as an attempt at control, to put itself at the centre of the city was a line said a couple of times. This in a way mirrored Bruce's Dad's solitory fight which aas we were told only succeeded in integrating a general change with the shock of his death. The deprivation was the inspiration rather than the acts themselves. Or something like that. After all, it's not like the whole monorail was destroyed, just the bit that interconnected with Wayne tower.

Perhaps.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
12:28 / 18.06.05
Having seen this last night with some friends, I must say that it was a perfectly decent Batman film. By no means great, but good enough to justify the time I spent watching it.

A few qualms...

Despite the justifications for such, the sction scenes were badly shot (or maybe edited). The car chase scene deserved to be a good ten minutes shorter, at least, and all of the action scenes were cut so quickly it made it very difficult to follow most of the time. I actually found myself feeling visually assaulted and confused by the action scenes, and not in a good way. I think Nolan has a great grasp of character, sure, but he can't shoot action to save his life.

Katie Holmes. Good god, will someone just kill her career already? She's from my home town, and by god, she's a terrible actress who has built her career upon looking vaguely cutesy. Her part would have been served better by largely being replaced by Michael Caine; imagine if Caine had been in that scene early in the film, if it had been Caine that slapped Bruce, etc. I think it would have been great, actually, but maybe I'm just making excuses to have more Alfred/Bruce interaction, because that relationship was played perfectly.

Katie Holmes played "The Woman" as in, the only woman in the film, really. Bruce is sad. Bruce misses his... mom? Well, not really, since he only ever thinks about what his dad would think of him, his dad's business, his dad's last actions and words... and so on. His Mother is a cipher, designed to die on cue and harass us no more in the plot. That rubs me the wrong way.

Insanity = evil. You get this in a lot of films; it's not just a problem with batman, but many other films portray those with mental illness as evil. Yes, I know that it's a comic book film, but it irks me that we have yet to get over the idea that all people with mental illness are evil.

Despite these problems, it was an enjoyable film. Particularly liked the character interaction, which was top-notch (but for Katie Holmes).
 
 
FinderWolf
14:45 / 18.06.05
I thought it was really cool that someone, for the first time ever in Batman history, had the balls to put forth the idea to Bruce Wayne that his parents' deaths were his father's fault.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:16 / 18.06.05
Every time I see the DC logo at the beginning of the movie, I think 'wow, they just directly ripped off the Marvel movie logo animation.' And Marvel's at least has many practically-subliminal fast shots of actual panels from Marvel comics, whereas DC's seems to have generic comic book-type shots of punching and toothy mouths. Are there are any actual shots of DC comics art in the animated DC logo edit?

Anyone else find those little cape-lapel buttons on Bats' new costumes annoying? I feel like they look out of place...also, I know that Bale now has freedom of neck momentk, thankfully, but sometimes the neck piece of the cowl looked really big, like a fat-necked person or something. I know these are supremely nit-picky and not a big deal at all, but just wondering if anyone else noticed these or if it's just me.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:38 / 18.06.05
I can't stop posting about this movie!!

The demonic Batman that the drugged Scarecrow and various drugged extras saw was really fantastic and well-done...

Batman sure flew around a lot, like really FLEW, at the end of the movie. Lucius Fox never says the cape will work like a glider but I guess it does...he flew around SO much that it was a little much for me, but no biggie.

Anyone else find Gary Oldman to be a bit bland as Gordon? Maybe that was the point in his performance...but we didn't get to see much about Gordon, no indication that he was conflicted in any way about helping Batman.

Nice use of the Bat-signal, and the way it looked in the clouds was perfect; the bat-image is there but just barely, very blurry but the shape is present. Introducing it with Falcone's body on the huge spotlight (which even more vaguely forms the shape of a bat) was cool.

Flass! Yay Frank Miller Year One.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:45 / 18.06.05
so basically in the Marvel/DC film wars, we now have(IMO):

MARVEL great superhero movies:

X-Men
X-Men 2
Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2
[i haven't seen the Blade movies so insert where you wish]

MARVEL medicore or bad superhero movies:

Hulk
Punisher
Daredevil
Fantastic Four (soon to be; I can't imagine this being good)

DC great superhero movies (new era, i.e. last 5 years):

Batman Begins
Superman Returns (I feel confident this will rock)

DC mediocre or bad superhero movies:

V for Vendetta (again, a prediction only)
Constantine (didn't see it but heard it was ok but not great)
 
 
FinderWolf
15:50 / 18.06.05
>> Quite a bit of stuff going on – which is a good thing, and let’s face it, previous Batfilms haven’t been overburdened with plot complexity

I second that emotion - this plot had meat to it, which was refreshing in comparison to all the previous movies.
 
 
at the scarwash
22:20 / 18.06.05
I liked the "I gotta get me one of these" line. It gave us a Jim Gordon before he was jaded, before Gotham ate his sense of humor. Also, I don't think I've ever seen Oldman play anyone so awkwardly.

I liked that Alfred's accent was lacking in Jeeves-y polish. That and the "Goodbye, Lucius" moment gave us a hint that he hadn't always been a butler.

I hated the fight scenes for the most part. I laud the attempt to push us into the thick, ooh, where's batman coming from, geez he's fast, but it ended up being quite incoherent for the most part. Will American directors ever come up with a way of shooting action that makes sense?

The bats were great in the Arkham scene, as was the fact that Batman was scared of them. It reminded us that he's not a completely emotionless killing machine.
 
 
This Sunday
23:00 / 18.06.05
Bad DC movies of the past:
Swamp Thing 1 & 2

Batman 4 (the third was poor, but I dunno, I liked the Riddler's panel-perfect imitation to ignore much the rest)

Superman, everything other than the first two, and we'll just pretend amnesia-kiss and super-time-turn-backing weren't there. Oh, the giant plastic S-shield trap, while we're at it.

That Catwoman thing.

And that's cutting a lot of others some severe slack.
 
 
Seth
01:39 / 19.06.05
Isn't Hulk the best movie ever made, though?
 
 
iamus
01:57 / 19.06.05
I took the whole Waynecorp/monorail thing to be a metaphor of Bruce's own psyche. Gotham is his mind, with the big Wayne building sitting right at the centre. It's a city that's falling apart, barely hanging on due to the efforts of his father. The Batman identity is Bruce's way of holding it together as it falls apart.

His whole journey is about the mastery of his fear and the Monorail bit at the end is what will happen if he lets that fear overtake him. When it reaches his centre, Waynecorp, it'll burst out and rip everything apart. Ras Al Gul is using the memory of Bruce's father (The monorail, signified by the early scene with both his parents) against him. If he wants to suceed he has to stop looking back to his father and take Gotham's future into his own hands.
 
 
iamus
02:00 / 19.06.05
Oops.

Which is why the monorail gets destroyed.
 
 
Billuccho!
02:52 / 19.06.05
Ooo, nice analysis.

I've really nothing to add to this thread... the movie was just damn awesome. Can't wait for the DVD...!
 
  

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