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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Batman Begins

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18:41 / 20.06.05

who was "Sparks" in the Matrix movies? Saw them but don't remember his role.

18:49 / 20.06.05

This reviewer criticizes Batman Begins for its anti-monorail message.

18:59 / 20.06.05

It's the current profits on Batman Begins that have me worried. I really want this movie to succeed financially, as positive reinforcement to WB to continue making good comic book films like this was. I honestly believe they only decided to go the serious route because the campy films just didn't make enough money the fourth go. But so far, Begins isn't exactly making the argument that serious and gritty is better. So far it's under Batman And Robin in margins and it's going to have a harder slog of it once War Of The Worlds premieres.

It has yet to even gain its production budget back, both domestically and worldwide.

20:23 / 20.06.05

Yes, but Bruce knows that Duccard was alive when he left and even Duccard knows that he couldn't have teleported alone in the village.

totally.
he also knows because the tibetan(?) dude promises to tell ducard that bruce saved his life.
ducard doesnt care, and you could argue that bruce still left him for dead, being more concerned with getting the fuck out of dodge.
i mean, he hardly nursed him back to health, did he?

the viral personality kinda works, but for me it feels wrong.
the idea that rhas is a name that means not a man but a role works better, and the idea that ducard was always ghul rings a bell.

still.
time will tell.

20:25 / 20.06.05

What kind of sick world do I live in where a movie like Sith gets all the big bucks but a movie like this one gets the shaft?

i plan on going to see it again and again and again.
i have an 'unlimited' card however, so this may not help.

20:54 / 20.06.05

The more I think about a sequel the more I don’t want to see The Joker, Riddler, Penguin, or any of those other fuckers. I want more Ra's Al Ghul and more Ninjas!

21:42 / 20.06.05

Hell I just hope they'll continue the same kind of realism with the sequels. If they could do that with the Joker and with Two-Face, as planned, I think I'd lose control of my bladder.

08:42 / 21.06.05

if they treat the origin and development of the joker in the same realistic way they treated bruse wayne's ascent/descent it will be awesome.
from that link it sounds like they might do.

11:41 / 21.06.05

I love reading the first few pages of this thread, now that I've seen the final film. It's funny seeing people react to all the casting news and scraps of plot that were revealed.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

12:13 / 21.06.05

Isn't Neeson Ras all along? In the party scene Wayne points out that all he does is set up a false Ras, a figurehead (which is what Watanabe is) whilst he leads from the so called shadows. Or did I misunderstand?

12:44 / 21.06.05

No, I think as far as the filmmakers' intentions go, that's exactly right.

Some people like to make up their own additions to the screenplay though....

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

13:14 / 21.06.05

Apologies if I was stamping on the kittens of other people's imaginations.

15:10 / 21.06.05

No, I think the movie is open to other interpretations, but, like Cam, I think the intention is that Neeson was Ra's from the get go. The film goes to great pains to rationlise everything from Ninjas to Bat Gauntlets. Neeson even points out that the League of Shadows' methods rely on trickery and subterfuge - on theatricality.

Misquote: Invisibility is simply a matter of patience and planning (or something).

Neeson Ra's fits this pattern of grounded rationisation perfectly, whilst leaving the door open for Lazarus Pits, etc...

Haus of Mystery

15:51 / 21.06.05

Sorry to say, I didn't like this film. Began well, but by the time the chunky rubber suit was dusted out I'd lost interest. Nolan can't direct action at all, and there never seemed to be any sense of scale or grandeur Or excitement. Say what you will about Burton's film, but at least he nailed Gotham. This film really lacked an identity. Bale was great, Michael Caine an adequately loveable Alfred, but the story was weak, full of ludicrous plot twists and ultimately unsatisfying.
"Here you go Jim, you drive the Batmobile, I'll fanny around on the mono-rail"
"OK"
Very dissappointing.

16:20 / 21.06.05

>>>Nolan can't direct action at all<<<

You know, I don't understand this complaint. Before I saw the film I read several reviews that mentioned the "incomprehensible" fight scenes, shot too close, edited too quickly, blah blah blah.

The fight scenes were clearly deliberately done that way, for practical and dramatic reasons. The practical reason is that the suit, despite being more streamlined than previous versions, is still pretty chunky and probably impossible to move gracefully. The quick editing and tight shots help disguise that. The dramatic reason for it is that they're meant to be disorienting, we're experiencing it from the criminal's POV, so we just see a blur of fists and flapping fabric. It creates the IMPRESSION of tremendous speed and force, while giving it that unsettling "what the fuck was that?" feeling.

To say Nolan "can't direct action" is, I think, silly - it's never actually confusing, at no point was I saying "hang on, I can't follow what's going on here, this isn't clear storytelling." It may not be a showcase for martial arts choreography but in the context of the story it works fine. And the Batmobile chase scene is one of the most exciting things I've seen in a film in quite a while.

16:48 / 21.06.05

Totally agreing with you on that point, Cameron...
And about reincarnation or not reincarnation, actually, who cares ? It's great both ways.
(And I was one of those talking about it...)

This movie is really really good.

17:44 / 21.06.05

On top of it NOT being a showcase for Martial arts Choregraphy, the "style" of fighting used for BATMAN is no longer famous for its cinematic flair. Not since Bruce Lee used it, at least.

It's called the Keysi Fighting Method and stems from roots established by Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. It's not fancy in the House of Flying Daggers sense. In Nolan's own words:

"We've gotten comfortable seeing fighting portrayed in this graceful, dance-like fashion to the point where the violence loses its threat. I wanted to take it back to a grittier place, where you feel the punches a bit more."

From this article.

I wouldn't have minded them pulling back a bit here & there but it's certainly no complaint.

Meanwhile I'd recomend a look at LAYER CAKE for a new take on some very In your face fight scenes... Literally.

18:17 / 21.06.05

from Hollywood Reporter:

>> Meanwhile, a report over at AICN refers to the next Batman film as being titled, Batman Continues, which would sort of make sense when you think about it. The piece states:

A lot of places are cottoning onto the idea of Australian actor Lachy Hulme as the Joker in BATMAN CONTINUES. Something about a rumoured invite to the US premiere that Mr Hulme was unable to attend due to shooting commitments for M, the Geoffrey Wright adaptation of Bill Shispeare's 'Macbeth'. No script has yet been written for the sequel, but so far the lanky Aussie is at the top of the list.
---

18:22 / 21.06.05

( That awful misspelling of the Bard’s name is courtesy of the Aint It Cool Piece, not mine, incidentally. )

Batman Continues sounds kind of silly to me....hopefully it’s just a working title. Then again, I thought “Batman Begins” sounded silly at first too and now I like it fine.

Brigade du jour

19:38 / 21.06.05

'Batman Proceeds' ... ?

19:40 / 21.06.05

Can we then have it followed by 'Batman Again', followed by 'Batman Some More', 'Batman Another Time', 'Batman Ends', 'Batman Ends Again'...?
Technically, I should probably just be happy nobody refers to them as Episodes 1, 4, 5, and that really horrible one with the laughing Arnie Freeze.

23:20 / 21.06.05

Totally agreed on the treatment of the fight scenes, Cameron. Why do we need yet more movies which focus on detailed hand-to-hand combat? It's a pleasure to see a different approach.

06:28 / 22.06.05

Mac, you think Burton nailed Gotham?
I couldn't disagree more strongly. For me Burton's vision felt parochial, small, constricted by it's fantastical design, fairy tale narrative and over reliance on sets. I just couldn't imagine it as a real place, and I certainly never felt a sense of grandeur or scale. For me Nolan's film has a solidity that Burton's movie doesn't even aspire to.

Cam, Mac wasn't criticising the car chase, he was criticising Gordon behind the wheel of the Batmobile. I have to say, I wasn't too keen, neither.

07:48 / 22.06.05

yeah.
that was the weak link in an otherwise solid chain.

"can you drive stick?"
"sure."
"great. well, this isnt a fuck like that at all. good luck!
we're all counting on you!"

exit gordon, stage left and into a river, loosing several missiles as he vainly tries to find the hand brake.

07:59 / 22.06.05

i completely agree on the cityscapes.
burton's was gothis, but it wasnt anything liek a real city.
nolan's looked like a dirtier, nastier new york, which is exactly how i always pictured gotham.
the narrows especially really reminded me of the comics i used to love.

Haus of Mystery

09:30 / 22.06.05

Okay, parts of Burton's cityscape were stagey, but Anton Furst designed a fully realised 'other' place, that felt true to Kane and Sprand's monstrously warped vision of New York (IMO).
Cam, I don't think it's 'silly' to criticise Nolan's action-handling. For me it was symptomatic of a bigger problem with modern action movies - the whole blurry, hand held ultra-fast cutting technique, which frankly leaves me cold. Headache inducing and uninvolving. Blade II suffered similarly, although Del Toro reined it in nicely for 'Hellboy'. I really liked the build up to this film. Bale was perfect for Bats and Bruce. No complaints there. Just once it reached the unveiling it never really grabbed me. There was no sense of awe, no air-punching thrills. And it's Batman. So I want those.

12:24 / 22.06.05

yeah, toksik, that bit with Gordon 'driving' the Batmobile seemed a bit weird to me...also, did anyone tell him the Batmobile was programmed to shoot missles into the pillars of the monorail...?

>> This reviewer criticizes Batman Begins for its anti-monorail message.

This reminds me of the famous Simpsons episode with the monorail guy coming to town. "Monorail!" "Monorail!" clearly, monorails are a paltry band-aid on society's problems.

12:24 / 22.06.05

I'd like to see a Bat-fight in a movie done in the style of the 'two guys just pounding into each other' bit from 'They Live', where there's a visceral sense of impact.
Mixed in with the dance-of-the-psychotics ballet battles and ninja trickiness like dropping the guys with silent darts from thirty feet away while they never see him.

14:53 / 22.06.05

Whilst I don't think it's silly to criticise Nolan's approach to the fight scenes, I don't think they're symptomatic of a broader problem. If anything Nolan used the close-and-confusing technique more thoughtfully than most - it made sense (for the most part*) in this movie.

As for air-punching moments, I agree the end lacks something, but I give you: the docks, the batmobile chase, the final scene with Gordon, the horror of the Scarecrow, the fear gas in general.

15:25 / 22.06.05

I loved this film to small bits and am going back on Friday for another viewing. Hooray!

* Fight scenes - After way too many films relying on bullet time and dance-style fighting, it was nice to see herky-jerky fists and kicking. I didn't notice that the fights were difficult to follow; I might try to pay more attention the second time around. I kind of like that, though - if I were a genuine bystander, that sort of "What the hell just happened?" disorientation is probably what I'd feel.

* Gordon in the Batmobile - This just reminded me way too much of Anakin accidentally destroying the droid control ship at the end of *Phantom Menace*. It came off too slapstick for my taste.

* Speaking of small kids, the little one who believed Batman was going to save him just got on my nerves, ARGH. I'd rather have the "we appreciate you, yeah!" city people from *Spider-Man* if you need to have any kind of "ordinary citizen in danger."

* Alfred - At first it was hard for me to buy this guy as a refined butler type. Then I read an interview online where Michael Caine said how he'd come up with this whole ex-SAS background for Alfred, and suddenly it felt more appropriate. I.e. he's not just a weedy butler who passes around the fingerbowls, he could also be a trained bodyguard to safeguard the wealthy Wayne family members. Damn, now I'd really like to watch *The Adventures of Young Alfred*.

18:54 / 22.06.05

* Speaking of small kids, the little one who believed Batman was going to save him just got on my nerves, ARGH. I'd rather have the "we appreciate you, yeah!" city people from *Spider-Man* if you need to have any kind of "ordinary citizen in danger."

I didlike that the kid was wearing Robin colors... it was a nice nod to the Boy Wonder, without any kind of set up or artificiality.

19:01 / 22.06.05

I am fairly sure, but Alfred's background as an ex-MI6 agent is fairly established in comics. I know for sure that it is true in the cartoon. There is an episode of the cartoon called, I believe, "The Lion and the Unicorn" which deals with it pretty well. It is used to explain his field medical abilities, among other things.

19:57 / 22.06.05

Alfred had some sort of military background, which played into the plot in the comics about ten/twelve years ago, as well as elsewhere. I've seen his training as a field medic mentioned, as well as superspy espionage allusions... so, yeah, Swedish Apple Shooters, why not? Actually, the SAS makes a lot more sense than some of the more fantastical Alfred histories given over the years, comics and elsewhere.

20:11 / 22.06.05

Also, Alfred does manage to creep up on Ducard and clip him one with a 9 iron.

As for the Gordon behind the wheel, I read it as Batman had pre-programmed what the car needed to do (kind of). Not that it meant it travelled alone, but the GPS fired up automatically and directed him to Wayne Towers, where the car stopped, and the weapons mode kicked in automatically. What I'm saying is, Bat's needed a human to do the stuff like drive the car, and aim the rockets, but he had the car ready to do the rest.

Maybe I'm just saying this as I loved Gordon in the film, so can't see any fault with him no matter how blatent...

01:34 / 23.06.05

Yeah, the back-up in Detective is all about secret agent Alfred. Kinda rubbish though.

Anyway, I don't think so, Caine, you lying bastard.

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