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New X-Men #146 (SPOILERS)

 
  

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some guy
20:14 / 11.09.03
In Xorn's solo issue he's healing people at the end as they enter ambulances.

I guess the question now is, did that issue actually happen? Do we have a reliable narrator?

Also when Xorn joins Cyclops during Imperial he keeps up this pretence all throughout their capture by the Shi-ar even though both he and Cyclops are completely outmanned.

If push came to shove (and assuming Xorn was Magneto at that point), I'm sure he would have used his powers to save his own life. But he's known Scott forever; no wonder he sent him off on a fool's errand with Logan via Fantomex to get him out of the picture. I'm sure Mags thought that with Scott around, the Shi'ar didn't have a chance.

There aren't ANY telltale signs.

I think there are quite a few; I'll go back through the series and see what I can find. In fact, if it hadn't been hammered home to us by Quesada so many times that dead means dead at Marvel now, I imagine some of us would have already predicted this. We were beautifully distracted. You just know the Marvel policy was entirely linked to Grant's plans ... we even had hints earlier, when Claremont was surprised to find Psylocke off limits. You can bet Colossus will be back within a year or so.

I know that Morrison has said that no one will really die during his run

This was the biggest clue of all. No wonder he made damn sure we saw Magneto in the hospital instead of leaving him dead from the previous arc.
 
 
some guy
20:19 / 11.09.03
I doubt that Weapon Plus is fake. I think they've just been played by Magneto, the same as the X-Men. Magneto needs them to start the war, remember?

Nah - the whole thing's a scam. No wonder Weapon X was always referred to as a program in the past - it was. Magneto's just fucking around to get the heavy hitters out. What else is going to pull Logan away like that? You can bet the files that drove Logan to suicide (and that's what the explosion must have been intended to be) are fakes as well.

Don't forget that Magneto used to be one of the X-Men. He knows all of their weaknesses (maybe Emma was the plant all along)...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:24 / 11.09.03
I honestly couldn't find any obvious signs... oh I'm sure there will be some in hindsight once GM's said what they are but for the moment I couldn't find any.

Ok...
Except the driverless taxi, Sage's mindwipe and Xorn and Angel's secret. BUT these are fairly recent clues in the scheme of things.

Xorn's solo issue is in debate but it was such a brilliant issue I think it's a bit disappointing to say it was all a fake to confuse Xavier.

I'm going on Ethan's say so that he knew from the outset about the Xorn/Mag thing... but the dialogue is so charmingly naive its hard to imagine anyone BUT Xorn being Xorn (if you know what I mean). So long with Chinese lessons Magneto did a crash course in method acting aswell he he.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:39 / 11.09.03
I still say: Magxorno is a liar. A big, fat, stinky liar. His words are not to be trusted. Ever! I'm not saying that Xorn does necessarily exist, but identity theft does seem more practical in this case than identity invention. Think about the key, for instance. How would Magxorno have gone about faking the psychic resonance that Emma picked up? Simply put, I'm not going to be terribly surprised if we see a for-real Xorn before Morrison's run is over.

One major quibble: I can buy Magxorno sneaking around the mansion in Xorn fatigues for months without most people catching on, but I see no way that he could have hidden his identity from Wolverine. Even if his suit/helmet combo was specifically designed to mask his scent, he still had two little naked hands poking out. Wolvie would have noticed Eau-de-Magneto. This still needs to be resolved, I think.

Oh, yeah: I also think that the Special Class will be instrumental somehow in bringing Magxorno down. They are the New X-Men. That is all.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:39 / 11.09.03
Another minor clue: when Cyclops and Xorn escape the Shi'Ar Superdestroyer, they use a teleportation device which relies on visualization. Scott tells Xorn to just try to imagine the Xavier school, though to our knowledge, Xorn has never been there. Magneto, of course, has. He used to live there.

Why is it so hard to believe that Magneto is an excellent liar?

There's loads of telltale signs if you're looking for them. Note how Xorn is always aloof. He never really talks much to the other faculty members. He obviously has more interest in teaching than the others. He is not part of the psychic conference. Think about Xorn's powers. There's plenty there, but nothing that gives it away. Pretty well handled, all told.

Lawrence, if Weapon Plus is a scam, then who are all of those people? What about Sublime? I think you're going too far over the top.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
20:40 / 11.09.03
145, the atmosphere: like a game; thin narrative, boss levels, explosions.

thissun: a blast! loved the black white flash gordon storytelling device at the beginning: I'm sure the satellite was obliterated at the end of 145 - but no, just a wee scratch!

the one sided conversation with dust was great; another cheese based narrative device.

fast and loose. like it. loads more shit to come. can't wait.

the mobility of these x-creatures is impressive. in and out of space is nae bother at aw!

I chalk that down to it being a game.

how come jean/phoenix has been so blind?

bobby dream deserves retrospective respect.

gift:

no characters will die: just change.......

suits?
 
 
Quimper
20:46 / 11.09.03
HA HA HA! Xorneto said to the special class after Ernst wanted to leave the woods..."We've only just collected the DEAD WOOD." He totally meant them, not the logs.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:46 / 11.09.03
If you check the 'manifesto' thing, it indicates that Wolverine is supposed to distrust Xorn. I wonder why that fell through the cracks - are we to believe that Wolverine just didn't believe his senses because he was convinced that Magneto was dead? (He was similarly confused when Jean came back...)

Xorn and Logan only share a couple scenes through the series, and they are both at times when everyone is distracted by something else big happening. Of course, they live on the same estate. But Logan is gone a lot.
 
 
some guy
20:51 / 11.09.03
Lawrence, if Weapon Plus is a scam, then who are all of those people? What about Sublime?

Pretty simple explanation - WP is the U-Men main program, with the workers believing they're working for Sublime, who is really working for Magneto. Works without fucking over continuity.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
21:16 / 11.09.03
Oh and a quick connection between Magneto and the U-men.

Nano-Sentinel Technology.

Which is probably what fixed Mag's severed spine after Eve of Destruction. If it worked for Xavier it can work for Eric.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:32 / 11.09.03
Wow. Grant really did have us thoroughly suckered, didn't he? I didn't post in that thread, but I'm sure I would've said the same general thing.

Hats off to Rawkusboi and Solid State, though.
 
 
Mike-O
23:28 / 11.09.03
.... That is really one of the bigger questions now, isn't it? Is their a Weapon Plus or not? And if yes, has Magnus played them, and how deeply? I'm not sure I understand how Asteriod M fits into this: inside of the satellite, or...?

And yes, what of Xorn's physical dysplays of power (where credible, ie: not 127 as that is his own account of events thru his "diaries")? But I guess the biggest one is how Logan was fooled... But Magnus is a crafty one so, hopefully Morry can flesh this out.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
23:38 / 11.09.03
Wow... get me! I forgot I wrote that.
 
 
neuepunk
23:52 / 11.09.03
I don't think it'll happen now since the helmet came off and Magneto was obviously in there, but I was predicting a secondary mutation for Magneto: the ability to manifest himself as pure electromagnetic energy. Think about it.. the mask comes off, and there's just a large glowing mass of energy, just like the cover. Not that scientifically sound, but stylish. It'd also explain the problem with Xorn being in China while Magneto was in Genosha; he could have been concentrating on creating an energy double of himself inside the mask. Optionally, when Genosha was destroyed, Magneto could have lost his physical body, leaving only his disembodied state.

Of course, now that we've seen the man behind the mask it's not likely, but it'd be cool.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
00:20 / 12.09.03
Alright, I;m not possitive I think Magneto really is Xorn. As someone said above, this whole comic is about fake idrntities. However, assuming Magnet=Xorn, there are several things that make sense to me, that aren't even obvious.

Way back in 115, when Magneto "died", the first thing I though of was "there is no body". Erik's corpse has never been located. Important.
Sentinals sentinals everwhere. The sentinals were originally built so that Maneto's powers wouldn't work on them. However, the rogue batch in E is for Extintion didn't use the same metal. So, Magneto could easilly control them.
Sublime keeps coming up. Remeber when he first appeared, and he suddenly had sentinal technology? I thought that was odd then. Still do, and now Sublime is tied to Weapon Plus. Even though he's dead. If it was even him that died. Hmmm....
In the Wizard Preview for the next(and last) arc, 100 years from now there's at least one Sentinal working for the X-Men. What does that tell you?
If Magneto set this up, Cassandra was part of his plan. She had to be. My real question is really "Would Magneto do it?" He could pull it off. But would he? 16 million dead mutants because of him. It will set mutants up for their eventuall take over, but would Magneto make that sacrifice? (I'm reminded of Watchmen here)

My really big issue is still why pose as an X-Men? He could have set it all up without the rouge. And if he set this all up, he always planned to join the X Men again. Why? Just to rub it in Charlie's face? I can't see him doing it just for that. But I might be missing something.

Or maybe there's more to this then meets the eye...
 
 
Mike-O
02:16 / 12.09.03
Spyder: Would Magnus let the death of 16million mutants from HIS nation justify a gamble of a ruse? Maybe, but he is a damn meticulous planner, and I don't see him taking that kind of unneccesary action for a relatively unlikely end result... and yet, who can be told just how far he would go? I find it hard to fathom he set up Cassandra... But I feel Sublime's role in all this needs clarification that will come soon.
 
 
Mike-O
02:20 / 12.09.03
Flux, I have to say I find your passion for all of this very compelling and hope I didn't offend u before. You're wise for having the foresight to stick shit out regardless and let the story be told, to jsut sit back and bloody well enjoy it.
 
 
bio k9
02:27 / 12.09.03
Logan was run down/had a cold due to the mini-sentinels...probably did his senses in too.
 
 
Bingoboots
03:47 / 12.09.03
I just read the issue, and I feel an overwhelming desire to use that special "L" word:

Lame.

Did someone say "Jump the Shark"?
 
 
The Falcon
04:13 / 12.09.03
Several people.

Thanks for quantifying your distaste, with that informative post.
 
 
rexpop
04:48 / 12.09.03
Actually it sort of all fits together, with a couple of loose parts that can easily be explained over the course of the next four issues. I hope the explanation is given.

1. The Magneto that died in #115 was probably a fake. Magnus was off in China preparing the Xorn Facade while the whole Genosha thing went down. Remember that we only saw some guy in a wheelchair die, and Magneto has been known to use/have robot doubles in the past.

2. Xorn's healing powers can easily be explained. Magnets have shown healing properties and after all Magneto is basically one big magnet.

http://skepdic.com/magnetic.html

Ditto with the bit in Imperial with the Star/Sun Guy. Magnetic fields can be used to contain or hold Plasma.

3. Asteroid M has been created/destroyed more times over the past 40 years so its return isn't totally surprising. I think one past issue even showed Magneto recreating it. So again the fact that it is back isn't a total surprise.

Admittedly I would have liked to see more build up to this. Over the course of say another 10 or so issues, while #136 did bring up the idea that Xorn wasn't as nice as he could have been, it wasn't really built on.

Also anybody notice that this arc bares a resemblance to Grant's last Doom Patrol arc where Niles Caulder revels himself to be a complete whack job and tries to change the work with his Nano machines ?.
 
 
rexpop
04:58 / 12.09.03
And actually Paul O'Brien of thexaxis review breaks it down and it all makes even more sense:

link
 
 
diz
05:18 / 12.09.03
"Sometimes the teacher must leave to make room for
learning"


that makes sense. that's practically the whole Xorneto thing in a nutshell.

i don't buy (yet) that the key put the idea of seducing Scott into Emma's head, but other than that, i like O'Brien's take. thanks rexpop...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
06:52 / 12.09.03
I don't think that the thought was somehow imbedded in the key. The way that Xorn seems to have been working all along is by setting up the dominos and letting them fall on their own. Undoubtedly because he knew

a) Scott Is Tremendously Repressed

b) Emma's Self-Image And Emotional State Is Tremendously Fragile

c) Jean Is Very Far Away

Magneto simply loaded the key with as much awful horrible psychic shit as possible and then let everything else happen, each in its own due course.

Thanks for the link, Rex. Paul knows his shit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:07 / 12.09.03
I'd add to O'Brien's account a couple of other "clues".

1) The very first page we ever see Xorn, he looks a hell of a lot like Magneto. Seriously, check out the first page of the annual. The shadow on his helmet at this point fits in with where the gap to show Mags' face would be on his normal helmet, he's sitting on an enormous throne if you look at it right, and blue (electromagnetic) energy is crackling either side of him.

2) In the Xorn solo issue: "There is no word for monster in any mutant dictionary", said to a couple of cops - this is straight Magneto dialogue, particularly reminiscent of the way Millar wrote the character in Ultimate X-Men. The annoying thing is I even remember thinking how this was an oddly confrontational, Magneto-ish thing for Xorn to say, but just attributed this to Morrion making the X-Men themselves a little more militant, a little more separatist. (Also, Magneto would probably have been genuinely pissed off about the kid being killed before he changed into something really powerful...)

3) The Genosha issue: the electromagnetic fields are described as creating an effect of "air bending". This is very reminiscent of the way Xorn talks about perceiving major events (see his response to the Jean/Emma showdown, "like gravity bending space", as mentioned by O'Brien, but also the way he talks to Angel about the riot kicking off - "can you feel it?" - which in retrospect he has no intention of stopping, he's basically saying "watch and learn" here). I'm going to hypothesis that this isn't just acting, this is the way Morrison thinks Magneto perceives the world...


But in retrospect, the main thing I think everyone was thrown by may have been looking for a more complicated story than was ever there. As of issue #141, we knew there had to have been a master villain, and that they had to have had access to the school. We also knew that there was something seriously up with Xorn (killing the U-Men, being rather suspicious when 'helping' Quentin on his way...). Now, in retrospect, it's easy to see that "the real enemy" Quentin was referring to was Xorn, but at the time it seemed so obvious a hint that I took this for misdirection, and I'm sure others did too. No, it was exactly what it looked like...

Let's say we'd figured out, then, that Xorn was EVIL, and that Esme was working with him. Esme tells Bishop tauntingly "oh, if only you knew" (who she was working with/for). This doesn't make much sense unless she's working for someone with whom Bishop is familiar (if she'd taunted one of the NXM team/staff, it could have just meant "if only you knew it was Xorn", but Bishop barely knows Xorn).

So the really clever people amongst us could probably have figured out by this stage that Xorn = old X-villain. But we were all so busy with our clever theories about En Sabah Nnnnnhhh God I'm Repressed Summers, we missed the obvious stuff. Like the fact that Xorn's agenda clearly involves the Special Class, and who's the guy who always tries to steal Chuck's children out from under his nose? Not Apocalypse. Plus, if anyone is going to whip up an iron prison specially for the occasion...

I'm wondering if Magneto has now mastered Nano-Sentinel technology completely - if in fact, they were always "his" toys. At no point does Cassie say "aha, AND I bet you're feeling really shit and run down thanks to MY Nano-Sentinels!", does she? If that's the case, they could be the reason Logan didn't smell Mags - they could also enable him to pull off just about any trick imaginable...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:33 / 12.09.03
I'd be really upset if O'Brien is right about the key thing - I think that's really far-fetched, and I'd hate to see the Emma/Scott relationship invalidated. I think Scott and Emma's delicate emotional states are one of the most interesting things about this series, I can't imagine why Grant would discount that.

Man, I never even thought about the fact that the last thing Quentin saw was Magneto's face. Wow. That's a nice touch.

Feng-Tu was the land of the dead in Chinese Mythology. Ruled by Yen-Lo Wang, the Chinese god of the dead, and Meng Po, the goddess of forgetfulness, it was described as having five levels, each one ruled by another god as its governor. The first level was saved for the honored dead of the ancient Chinese. The second level was ruled by Chu Jiang and reserved for thieves and murderers. The third level ruled by Song Di kept for sinners guilty of disloyalty and rebellion. The fourth level ruled by Wu Chang reserved for cheats and counterfeiters. The bottom level was reserved for the punishment of souls.

By the way, there's no reason to be confused about Magneto's body situation. He never died on Genosha. One might think that's a big "no duh," but apparently not. We only see Magneto in the chair. That's it. Magneto could have easily protected himself with all of the metal around him, and those sentinels were made of metal too. The question we really should have thought about back then should have been, why didn't Magneto, a man with the power to stop these machines dead in their tracks, NOT save his own people? We totally underestimated him.
 
 
diz
11:39 / 12.09.03
Feng-Tu was the land of the dead in Chinese Mythology. Ruled by Yen-Lo Wang, the Chinese god of the dead, and Meng Po, the goddess of forgetfulness, it was described as having five levels, each one ruled by another god as its governor. The first level was saved for the honored dead of the ancient Chinese. The second level was ruled by Chu Jiang and reserved for thieves and murderers. The third level ruled by Song Di kept for sinners guilty of disloyalty and rebellion. The fourth level ruled by Wu Chang reserved for cheats and counterfeiters. The bottom level was reserved for the punishment of souls.

i believe they forgot the final level, ruled by Wu-Tang, reserved for the punishment of wack MCs.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:48 / 12.09.03
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Magneto DID survive the attack as evidenced by the Ambient Magnetic Fields issue. He had enough time as he lay in the rubble (not dead) to record himself and every other Genoshan onto that black box.
Its not that far fetched to think he survived under the rubble if Polaris managed it aswell (see the most recent issue of Uncanny). Hell even Emma survived the attack through her instinctive secondary mutation so we know that people have survived.

But I'm still having difficulties reconciling what we know and have read about Xorn with his big reveal as Magneto. I'm getting the feeling that this is one of Grant's "trust me" moments where you have to accept it because thats what he wrote.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
13:06 / 12.09.03
Hm.

Clues over in de Filth, too.

Psychovillain gets killed.

They bring him back.

He gets killed again.

Back again.

Killed again.

Back again.

De Hand *never* lets go, boy.

Yeah, when you think about it, if it’s all about “novelty versus the old”, then this *is* the ultimate challenge for the new x-men, like. The whole brand new direction of the gang being undermined in the worst possible way – “you don’t even get a new baddie to fight, lads! You’re still fuckin’ about with the same oul’ eejit you have been for years and years – and this is how it’s *always* gonna be, lads ‘n’ lassies – *always*!”

Status Q rules.

Next week’s visit to Greg’s place might give us a few hints about how things are gonna go for Charlie and “his” x-men. The NXM vibes are all dirty now.

Logan like Feely with his parapersonas, and his pessimistic “suicide”.

How’s this? (Please excuse the Qabalababble.) Human race like Tony the sick cat. Charles like Greg an’ all Chesedy, like. Sentimental for the pathetic wee thing. It won’t survive, it’s terminal, but hold onto it for as long as you can, nurse it and be nice to it. “Anal retentive.” An’ then Magneto like the Hand, all Geburah and Pachady, like. “Just get rid of the thing, for fuck’s sake!” Wants to “help along” nature’s process of elimination, a la Psychopath’s Bible. No point in giving the thing medicine, prolonging its miserable existence! He’s shovelling the dirt into the little grave like a boyo while the diseased moggy inside mews weakly. Impatient fucker. He’s got fucking *plans* – places to go, people to do! “Shit or get off the pot, Charlie!”

Fucking prick. He’s just a big bully. I don’t like him.

Beak’s had the upsetting experience of being forced to hurt a friend once before. He won’t take this shit.
 
 
Quimper
14:10 / 12.09.03
Beak will rise up! The Chicken Run is at hand! Beak IS Scott Summers with a KFC twist. Scott bailed and will be back with authority. Scott will embrace his role as Cyclops the X-Man. And so will Beak. Chuckie has already given him the title of X-Man. All it takes is ONE insult from Magneto and Beak will prove that he is NOT Mortimer Toynbee. And Angel will follow. Freedom will prevail. Control through Nano-Sentinels will fall. Love will win. As above, so below. Jean and Scott. Angel and Beak.
 
 
Professor Silly
14:32 / 12.09.03
...I don't think Hank injected Charles' body with nano-sentinals. When Cassandra switched places with Xavier and then shot her body up, it only sprayed the nano-sentinal laced blood all over three of those present: Scott, Logan, and Emma. Somehow the infection spread to Hank and Jean, and not to anyone else at the school (like the students). This suggests that the infection of all involved must have happened at the shooting...so it seems likely that they spread to Cassandra-in-Xavier at this time. This would mean the nano-sentinals where present in Xavier's body thoughout the trip into space.

Which begs the question...if Hank's injection didn't contain nano-sentinals, what did it contain...and did this have anything to do with why Cassandra had to leave the body and become vulnerable?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:33 / 12.09.03
I'm curious how those kids will react to finding out that Xorn was Magneto all along.

It's one thing for your teacher to tell you that Adolph Hitler had some good ideas, but quite another for your teacher to actually BE Adolph Hitler, you know what I mean? Surely at least half of them should be scared/confused/betrayed/horrified.
 
 
_Boboss
14:33 / 12.09.03
yeah but the kids are under the control of martha though, who having come from dr sublime is all part of maggie's plan. people in marvel comics don't have shading that dark around their eyes unless they're possessed, hypnotised or otherwise acting against their better will.
 
 
adamswish
16:02 / 12.09.03
going back a bit I thought the think Emma had found out was that angel was pregnant and the fear of being expelled (worry built up either by esme's telepathic meddling or Xorneto messing) drove Angel to shoot Emma.

And don't forget her kids in the lodge, and the arm with the gun and soemone able to wipe Sage's hard-drive, who we all now suspect to be Xorneto knows of the kids. If the gestation period of a human/fly combination is a few days, just how big are those kids now, and more importantly where are they?

Looking forward to getting this issue. Spoilers never worry me, and it's been great reading more informed opinions over the last seven pages too.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
16:57 / 12.09.03
Two things. Magneto is not evil. He never was. (well, except in the 60s. And with that whole onsalate thing. But that's it. I think. Maybe I'm wrong) He's a man obsessed with his mission, and that's saving his specises at all costs. But he's not evil. And then there's Cassandra. We've never really gotten a good explaination about what she is. Homo Sapein Superior Superior? I'd like to know what she is, still. I think we haven't been told everything.
 
  

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