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New X-Men #146 (SPOILERS)

 
  

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Rawk'n'Roll
10:43 / 11.09.03
Don't forget that is how the world really looks. Although I don't know quite how you ascertain up from down in space.

I thought it was more a statement on "This is how things have always been but you've been led to believe the opposite by others". Thats a really bad way of saying it but I think you catch my drift.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:35 / 11.09.03
Y'know, if Xorneto did murder Quentin (and it looks like he meant to, although I'm neither sure how it was done, or entirely convinced that Quentin didn't either die or 'change' all by himself), then how fucking tragic does that make the Quentin/Xavier/Magneto dynamic? Remember when Quentin's really bugging out and says something to Chuck like "all my life I was promised peace and security - where is it?". And he's right. Xavier is supposed to be protecting young mutants - the school is supposed to be a safe haven - and he's utterly failed to deliver. He says some nice things while Quentin's lying there, but Lilandra was right: they're just words, platitudes. Essentially Chuck just stands and watches whilst Xorneto kills this kid, and doesn't think anything's amiss because he's so taken in by Xorn's own platitudes. What makes this even more heartbreaking is a) the fact that Xorneto may have been selling the Kick to Quentin, so he was being corrupted by another of these idealised, peaceful father/authority figures he's supposed to look up to and be protected by, b) Quentin is killed by the one father/authority figure he wanted to emulate, the guy he idolised and whose approval he gets, in a way, just before the old git murders him. And Quentin was an orphan. SO fucked up.

Y'know, at first I didn't quite get why Xorneto would kill Quentin, someone who was basically on his side (although he'd sort of recanted by that point). Then I realised it makes perfect sense: Magneto wants followers, not rivals. He recognises that Quentin is another potential revolutionary leader, and he's happy to use him as a smokescreen and just to cause trouble. But Quentin wouldn't be a very good acolyte, he'd ask too many questions. So he has to be cut down. The revolutionary-turned-dictator quashes all dissent ruthlessly, right? The revolution devours its children.

Considering that the heart of NXM is children, and specifically stopping them from DYING, I can't see how Charles won't be crushed by the realisation of all this.

Jesus. I remember getting so annoyed with Xavier's smugness prior to 'Riot', and thinking "I want Chuck to fall *hard*, and I want Quentin to be instrumental in this". And I remember being annoyed that this hadn't happened. Be careful what you wish for.

If nothing else, Morrison has succeeded in making me care about the outcome of this story. God help me, I want that tin-headed bastard dead.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:04 / 11.09.03
Bio already cleared it up, but I'd may as well say it again for the slow kids: Just because I wasn't the first to think it was En Sabah Nur, it doesn't meant that I didn't get suckered by that too. And it doesn't change my appreciation of this story.

Everybody should go back and re-read all of Flyboy's posts in this thread. Flyboy gets it. This is "New X-Men" because of the ideas and subtext, it's not "New X-Men" because of the shiny new toys and surface details. It's about taking the old thing and investing it with new/revised ideas. I think the whole "they blew up Cerebra! they're 'retconning' everything!" thing to be hilarious, because it seems to miss the point of drama entirely. Cerebra wasn't wrecked because it was some kind of attempt to throw out the new stuff (and c'mon, Cerebra is just Cerebro, and that's been there since the beginning), it was to make the story more dramatic by stacking the odds against the X-Men.

Please, enough of this "he's wrecking his legacy" bullshit. If you stop and think for more than 40 seconds, you'll realize that a real lasting legacy on this sort of thing has nothing to do with the little details and everything to do with the power of the stories. Only a fool would diminish the impact of Chris Claremont on this franchise, but Morrison hasn't been using his characters and situations for the most part. But it's still very Claremont in spirit. Future writers need not use Nano-Sentinels, Fantomex, and Beak to evoke Morrison's run on this title.

And why are you all so concerned about the future of this franchise anyway? This is a self-contained story. Who the fuck cares if no writer ever wants to use or mention these stories again? Morrison barely acknowledged an entire decade of X-continuity. So what?
 
 
diz
13:06 / 11.09.03
Cerebra is just Cerebro

well, yes and no. Cerebra is the female Cerebro, the X-equivalent of the JLA Information Womb, or all the liquid computers and such in The Invisibles.

GM has a tendency to look at information as immersive, evolving, and most importantly organic, and consistently and consciously reframes information technology as feminine in keeping with that.

the Cerebro/Cerebra shift is analogous to the Sentinels/Nano-Sentinels shift: away from 20th century "hard" tech into 21st century fluid tech.

the rest of your points are well-taken.
 
 
Quimper
13:39 / 11.09.03
Although I am a huge proponent of the entire run, I do have issue with this doddering version of Chuck, and with the fact that Logan and Hank were taken in so easily.

Chuck has been completely ineffectual and foolish. I want to see some redemption. I want to see the greatest telepath on earth pull an ace out of his f*cking sleeve already.

And here is my moment of frustration with Beast. During Imperial, I asked why Hank stuck Cassandra/Xavier with those syringes, which probably contained nano-sentinels. Obviously, he was told to by Xorneto who yelled, "Hank! Now!" while he had Xavandra in a patented full-nelson. What logic did Hank use to think that was a good idea! How did he not think to himself, "okay this primitive luddite buddhist who knows nothing about the world just told me to stick these horrible things that are killing us into the body of my mentor who we are trying to save. Hmmm...red flag! Something's not right here." Beast better be the one who says, "Actually, my fictionsuit wearing foe, I've known you were up to something ever since Imperial, so I...." C'mon Beast. C'mon Chuck.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:44 / 11.09.03
The thing I love about all this is that Grant has managed to ensure that a fan-favourite character that he created can never, EVER be used again by anyone.

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:51 / 11.09.03
I agree with that, Charles and Henry should be smarter than this, but if we're being realistic, they are having their character flaws used against them by Magneto. Henry was caught up in the action, and was desperate to prove himself in that battle with Cassandra. He trusted Xorn in that moment. It's weird that it never occured to him to check back on that - surely he'd realize what he did - but I think he just went along with the "Xorn healed Charles" thing.

Charles has been painfully naive and too trusting the whole time, but that's exactly how he'd be. He thinks that he's already living in his utopia to some degree - he only wants to believe in the best of people. He's not cynical. He's pretty typical of the dreamer type, I think. He's not dumb, he's just oblivious.

I'm sure Charles will redeem himself now. It's his turn.

However, if this next issue doesn't begin with Charles immediately launching a psychic strike on the helmet-less Magneto, he may really just be a dumbass.
 
 
Quimper
14:14 / 11.09.03
We really haven't seen Angel puke up acid in a while. I say Charles's first strike is to telepathically control Angel to throw up on Maggie's face! Then, in a mystical full-circle way, Mags would truly have no face...just like his fictionsuit!
 
 
diz
14:38 / 11.09.03
We really haven't seen Angel puke up acid in a while. I say Charles's first strike is to telepathically control Angel to throw up on Maggie's face! Then, in a mystical full-circle way, Mags would truly have no face...just like his fictionsuit!

Xorn isn't really Magneto's fictionsuit. he would be Magneto's fictionsuit if Magneto wrote himself into a work of fiction as Xorn. i suppose that if you want to count the Xorn of the infamous "Zen Diaries" specifically as a fictionsuit, you could, but that's really stretching...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:49 / 11.09.03
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the word fictionsuit is a totally devalued currency on this board now - it means everything from writing yourself into a story to a faked identity to the screename you use online.

It's a pretty meaningless word at this point.
 
 
diz
14:58 / 11.09.03
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the word fictionsuit is a totally devalued currency on this board now - it means everything from writing yourself into a story to a faked identity to the screename you use online.

It's a pretty meaningless word at this point.


~sigh~ yeah, i know. that's why i posted that. i feel like the little Dutch boy with my finger in the dike at this point, but i really like the concept and i want to at least try to salvage it...
 
 
Quimper
15:00 / 11.09.03
I stand corrected. Sorry diz. Sorry flux. Sorry John, wherever you are.
 
 
diz
15:24 / 11.09.03
well, OK.

i was wrong. way wrong. clearly. all appropriate concessions to those who called this.

i was opposed to the whole Xorneto development because a key part of NXM for me has been the idea that the X-Men were moving on into new conflicts, and that there was a certain "passing of the torch" from Xavier to a new generation going on.

to me, Xorn was a major new unknown quantity, a character with seemingly limitless potential to change the dynamics of the X-universe. Magneto's death was the necessary sacrifice to makr the point of transition, the clean break.

that's obviously not the case.

the thing that still bugs me here is the loss of potential. the great unknown has been replaced with a very-well-known. it's really killed a lot of my enthusiasm for the climax of GMs run, and makes me like a lot of the older stuff less in retrospect.

that said, maybe that's the point.

to a certain extent, i was expecting that when Xorn finally stepped up to the plate, something amazing would happen. in some ways, i was hoping for Xorn to save the day, or something. i wanted to believe he was capable of becoming anything.

BB Said: "I'm finding that Xorn solo issue to be even more poignant as it's pretty much Chuck's projection of what he wants Xorn to be, manipulated by Erik."

to a certain extent, Xorn was the embodiment of Xavier's dream. Xorn is exactly what Xavier hoped humanity would become in some sense: peaceful, gentle, and wise, but powerful - a great force for good.

but now, Magneto has killed that. "the dream is over," indeed.

GM's been playing here with a lot of core concepts here, but the one that's really striking me now is the power of ideas to affect the world. the X-Men were revolutionary in terms of superhero concepts in part because the main conflict was, in many senses, ideological, and GM has been playing with that. first, with Magneto-as-pop-culture-icon, and now with Xorn, the embodiment of Xavier's dream, exposed as a sham.

i suppose that what i'm feeling is a sense of disappointment and disillusionment, and a sense of hopelessness. all the progress that i thought was being made is, in some sense, gone, and we have returned to the familiar set of players, the same conflicts that i had hoped we'd left behind.

which, i suppose, is also how the X-Men are feeling at this point in the storyline. Magneto's reappearance has crushed my hopes as much as it's crushed those of the characters in the storyline.

i have to concede that this is a fucking masterful accomplishment.
 
 
uncle retrospective
15:39 / 11.09.03
Well.... That was a pile of shit.
I was worried about buying Xmen, I'm not a super hero fan but I was willing to see if Grant was going to give us something new. "This is not your fathers X men" as some one round here once said.

And after slogging through the last 3 issues what happens?
Magneto.
Fuck.
That.
This is the same old shit that made the X men stink for decades.
YAWN

Now I know it's only part one. I hope to eat my words but I smell shark.
 
 
Elegant Mess
15:47 / 11.09.03
Did I miss the part where Emma came back from the "dead", or was it just glossed over?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:50 / 11.09.03
Oh come on. Have you even read those old Claremont Magneto stories? Magneto's been one of the best things about the X-Men for a long time. Just because the people in charge of the franchise in the 90s totally wrecked Magneto for a little over a decade, it doesn't mean that Morrison can't redeem the character now.

If you want to talk about lame X-villains, you're thinking of Mr. Sinister, Stryfe, Onslaught, stuff like that. Magneto is the fucking core of this story, and is a very good character. Haven't you seen the films?

I really like that now I hear Ian McKellen's voice when I read Magneto's dialogue. Speaking of which - what do you reckon Xorn's voice sounded like? Surely it was different enough so that no one suspected anything. I imagine that it sounded kind of otherworldly.

As for Emma - she came back to life at the end of Murder At The Mansion. Jean put her back together again. She was never dead - her conciousness was still clinging to the diamond shards or something.
 
 
uncle retrospective
15:59 / 11.09.03
Yea Flux, I saw the films. I was expecting Magneto. He was very good.
New X Men said it was going to do something diferent.
Magneto isn't. It's my fault I belived them.
 
 
diz
16:16 / 11.09.03
Did I miss the part where Emma came back from the "dead", or was it just glossed over?

Murder at the Mansion pt 3. Jean fuses her broken parts (as reassembled by Hank) together and she "comes back to life."
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:18 / 11.09.03
"Did I miss the part where Emma came back from the "dead", or was it just glossed over? "

Very much glossed, only mentioned in the recap page of Weapon Plus Part One.
 
 
Elegant Mess
16:35 / 11.09.03
How the hell's that going to work in the trades?
 
 
Quimper
16:44 / 11.09.03
When Emma sat up and screamed "ESME!" after Jean put her back together, she looked pretty alive to me.
 
 
diz
16:47 / 11.09.03
Very much glossed, only mentioned in the recap page of Weapon Plus Part One.

How the hell's that going to work in the trades?


what are you talking about? Jean said she was bringing her back. she brought her back. THEN SHE SAT UP AND SCREAMED. seemed pretty clear to me.

When Emma sat up and screamed "ESME!" after Jean put her back together, she looked pretty alive to me.

exactly.
 
 
Elegant Mess
16:50 / 11.09.03
what are you talking about?

Yeah, what am I talking about?

Somehow, I'd managed to forgot about the final issue of "Murder at the Mansion".

Damn my goldfish memory...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
16:53 / 11.09.03
Damn. I'm glad I read the book before I came in here.....
 
 
Elegant Mess
16:59 / 11.09.03
Hey, I read it!

I just embarrassed myself by subsequently forgetting it...
 
 
FinderWolf
18:12 / 11.09.03
I believe that Beak will become the full-fledged hero Morrison intended to be and he will FIGHT Magneto's philosophy. I bet he'll make Angel come around, too. Let's not forget how much Morrison loves Beak!!

I have a hard time believing how the ENTIRE Special Class would fall under Magneto's sway so quickly. The big stupid dude with the strobe-eye, yes. Martha, ok, esp. if she's the plant. But I bet Angel and Beak will shine forth as good guys.

Also, am I correct in thinking that 'beach' was not a place where there's water and sand but 'bee-yatch', referring to Dust of course? Just wanted to double check this.

On an art note, it seems Jimenez' inks are shifting in style - I got a sense that his inks make his art look more like Neal Adams type stuff - maybe echoing, consciously or subconsciously, the grand old Neal Adams X-Men days? Anyone else get a Neal Adams vibe from the art (esp. the faces)?

I trust Morrison to still make this fresh and new. It is only part 1 of a massive 5 part story.

Although I was upset that in the page with Emma and Beast on the jet talking, Jimenez never showed Emma once. I had to go back and check to make sure that's who went with Hank on the jet to go fetch Scott. Was this an artistic choice or just clumsy weirdness?

Why is Logan fighting Weapon XV? I thought Weapon XV/Ultimaton (snicker snicker) just wanted to know the meaning of life, not duke it out.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:27 / 11.09.03
Just read the whole run... can't say there were any telltale signs anywhere about Xorn = Magneto.

But my first thoughts went to some of the unanswered questions from Murder....
1) who was making Kick? If Beak was selling it where'd he get it from?
2) Angel says that Emma "found out something" which was why she had to shoot her but Angel didn't know what.
3) Esme is either the plant or working with Magneto. Or both.
4) What was the connection between the U-men and Cassandra? Just the fact that they both utilised nano-sentinel tech?
5) In Imperial Beast injects Xavier as Xorn is healing him. But I can't work out why? He's obviously injecting Prof X with nano-sentinels so Xorn can control them but wouldn't that mean that Beast has known all along? (someone else mentioned this, I'm just agreeing)
6) Emma has been questioned over her loyalty to the X-men way too many times for it not to be a clue to something.
7) What happened to No-girl?
 
 
Eskay Doss
19:01 / 11.09.03
I'm right here!
 
 
diz
19:09 / 11.09.03
Why is Logan fighting Weapon XV? I thought Weapon XV/Ultimaton (snicker snicker) just wanted to know the meaning of life, not duke it out.

yes, but Logan has gone batshit and he wants to duke it out. bummer for ULTIMATON! (sorry...had to bold and caps that)

4) What was the connection between the U-men and Cassandra? Just the fact that they both utilised nano-sentinel tech?

it kind of seems like everyone is using nano-Sentinels sometimes, doesn't it?

6) Emma has been questioned over her loyalty to the X-men way too many times for it not to be a clue to something.

i'm still curious about her "Road to Damascus" moment waaaaaay back in the beginning.

7) What happened to No-girl?

No-Girl is a joke. she's an in-joke shared by the Special Class. that's all.

if there's anything "deeper" to No-Girl it's that she's an example of abstract ideas having force with a group of people because they choose to act as if they're real or important.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
19:14 / 11.09.03
No-Girl is a joke. she's an in-joke shared by the Special Class. that's all.

I dunno... I get the joke angle but I was expecting GM to pull a fast one there aswell. Still either way she could still be mentioned by someone.

Emma's Road to Damascus moment is what got me. Something make her go back and it ain't her Luis Vuitton bag like she says and I think snapping Cassie's neck is just good timing.

But I'm probably speculating too much and missing the simple story.
 
 
some guy
19:18 / 11.09.03
1) who was making Kick? If Beak was selling it where'd he get it from?

Magneto is probably behind Kick (a great way to get control of several students through NanoSentinels ... and perhaps explaining Quentin's death). Beak, anxious for acceptance, could have been a middleman for Xorn, although perhaps Mags was supplying to a third party.

Angel says that Emma "found out something" which was why she had to shoot her but Angel didn't know what.

Emma found out that Esme was the mole. Magneto is probably the "killer" from that arc.

3) Esme is either the plant or working with Magneto. Or both.

She's obviously working with Magneto - check out that driverless cab she leaves in. The question is, was she planted by Magneto or did he turn her, perhaps taking advantage of fallout from the Imperial arc?

What was the connection between the U-men and Cassandra? Just the fact that they both utilised nano-sentinel tech?

Not sure on this. They're obviously connected to Weapon Plus. My theory is that Cassandra is a fake and never was Charles' sister. Weapon Plus is a fake, along with Fantomex. The entire Weapon Plus gambit was designed by Mags to take out Wolverine and Cyclops, both dangerous opponents (and yes, Logan has the adamantium, but he's taken down Magneto before).

In Imperial Beast injects Xavier as Xorn is healing him. But I can't work out why? He's obviously injecting Prof X with nano-sentinels so Xorn can control them but wouldn't that mean that Beast has known all along?

Beast may have thought the injection might have aided the effects of Xorn's "healing" powers. Magneto is never going to just kill Charles - they have a long and complicated history, and part of his victory is forcing Charles to know defeat.

Emma has been questioned over her loyalty to the X-men way too many times for it not to be a clue to something.

This could go either way, but Generation X makes me think Emma's legit now. She was shot because she's either loyal to the X-Men and was too close to catching Magneto out through Esme, or because she was the original plant but because loyal to the X-Men through her love for Scott. Either way, she's not the villain here - and surely Phoenix would have sniffed it out in their mental catfight anyway.

What happened to No-girl?

No-Girl is almost an injoke about this whole storyline - paying attention to things that aren't there to distract from what is!

I'm confused about Xorn's blue light, but I can accept that Logan didn't suss out Magneto because of the suit/helmet was designed to block his senses, just as it blocks telepathy.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
19:29 / 11.09.03
I'm confused about Xorn's blue light, but I can accept that Logan didn't suss out Magneto because of the suit/helmet was designed to block his senses, just as it blocks telepathy.

The blue light (and smoke, and steam and general physiology) have been consistant throughout. I think GM is gonna have to work to explain that one.
In Xorn's solo issue he's healing people at the end as they enter ambulances.
Also (I'm nitpicking here) when Xorn joins Cyclops during Imperial he keeps up this pretence all throughout their capture by the Shi-ar even though both he and Cyclops are completely outmanned.
After re-reading the whole thing I'm having difficulties reconciling this plot twist cos GM could really have had Xorn be anyone at this stage. There aren't ANY telltale signs. The only one I've seen that Xorn has a secret is when he and Angel are in the woods. That scene works beautifully now and could be important in explaining the Special Class's turning to the dark side.

I really need to get to a comicbook shop and buy 146 before I carry on though, its hard to do all this just from a synopsis.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:01 / 11.09.03
Well...there was the driverless cab. And maybe some others. I agree, though, that there was little chance of anyone figuring out that Xorn = Magxorno. Unless I've missed something glaringly obvious. Which I may have.

But, you know, I'm still not really convinced that Xorn = Magxorno, insofar as Xorn's complete fictitiousness is concerned. Creating Xorn wholly from scratch, complete w/fake prison, is admittedly within Magneto's ability, but it still seems needlessly complicated. Just because Magneto says that Xorn never existed is no reason to believe him, of course. "What is this world of liars?" indeed. I still think Xorn might be hogtied in Xavier's toolshed or something.

And speaking of Charlie: he's stepping down as headmaster. As mentioned multiple times in old-school X-Men issues, Charles has always been frustrated by his inability to be functional within the world that the X-Men inhabit (in the thick of the action). Now that his walkies have been taken from him and he's voluntarily turning over the keys to the kingdom, what is his purpose? Is it to do whatever it takes to upend Magxorno's plan, perhaps at the cost of his own life? I know that Morrison has said that no one will really die during his run, but now would be as good a time as any for it to happen. But I doubt that it will.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:11 / 11.09.03
Mags must have been Xorn from the end of Imperial at least since he "heals" Xavier then.
The driverless cab still makes me think of any number of telekinetics (which Sophie may be) or similarly powered people but the safe money is on Magneto there.

Charlie stepping down as headmaster is possibly the only lasting effect that I think the next writer will have to deal with. Either that or the school will be no more (but with New Mutants in publication thats unlikely).

Oh and Dust is still annoying me... she could be the plant as Fantomex delivers her to Wolvie BUT why does Magneto/Xorn try to recruit her if she is?
So I'm a bitconfused with Dust, perhaps she's just what she appears to be.

So far we've had lots of people pretending to be something they're not:
Cassandra as Xavier, Emma as Jean, Beast as gay, Xorn as Magneto, his whole run has been about dual identities of some sort. And all the way through there's been sentinels. So far I'm counting on the sentinels to be the glue which binds the book together.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:11 / 11.09.03
I think Emma's "Road to Damascus" moment happened because Cassandra pushed her to do it. She's been legit the whole time, though, I'm sure of it.

I agree with Lawrence. I think Cassandra was a construct. She may have been Charle's genetic twin, but the body was given to her by someone else. Note that she's constantly aging as she uses her powers. That's got to be a clue. The fact that she had access to so many mutant powers is suspicious too. I'm very interested in how Grant explains her, and how she's part of Magneto's master plan.

Beast injected the nano-sentinels in Charles's body so that Magneto could use them to fuse his spine.

The blue light from the Xorn mask is probably just for effect. Magneto probably just had that be part of the mask to throw folks off - when he 'd kill people with the light, he's probably doing something else, like cutting off their blood flow or somesuch.

I doubt that Weapon Plus is fake. I think they've just been played by Magneto, the same as the X-Men. Magneto needs them to start the war, remember?

Rawkusboi, if you go to the store and buy the comic, then actually read it, you'll note that there never was a Chinese man called Xorn, it was always Magneto. Every time Xorn has appeared so far, it was Magneto.
 
  

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