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New X-Men #146 (SPOILERS)

 
  

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diz
00:53 / 14.09.03
Phoenix knows. In Jean's panel with Xavier she says "You needn't be disheartened. Whatever happens it will be for the best."
Now this is a very suspect thing to say whether its regarding her Phoenix powers or about the subsequent revelations. I think she's known all along and I think she knows she can take Magneto if it came to it.


see, i was thinking this, but then Jean was surprised up on Asteroid M.

i think that Phoenix knows, but Jean doesn't, if you take my meaning.

Mike-O - I'd definitely be on the side of the Xavier school. No question about it. I'm all for social integration, and I'm against segregation and genocide. I mean, aren't you?

i don't know, i've always been distinctly Magneto-sympathetic. i mean, let's be real: mutants and humans aren't the same underneath it all. they are fundamentally different, and i think mutants collectively have an interest in sticking together for self-defense, if necessary a somewhat aggressive self-defense.

i guess i'm a mutant separatist. i kind of liked the idea of Genosha as a mutant paradise.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:08 / 14.09.03
SPOILERS FOR NEW X-MEN #147

According to some people who've seen the preview of this issue, it seems that we find out that Magneto isn't who we think he is - he's been secretly The Gorch all along!
 
 
some guy
01:22 / 14.09.03
Why discount the Leningrad?

For the same reason we forgive the actions of Logan, Rogue etc. prior to their reformations. Magneto turned himself in for the Leningrad and voluntarily stood trial; afterward, he tried to make amends by running the school. Even before that - if Magneto was the sociopath Flex is trying to paint him as, Lee Forrester would be dead. And more recently, Lilandra.

Not saying he's not insane - only that he's not an indiscriminate killer and not a sociopath. It'll be interesting to see if he was behind Genosha, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:00 / 14.09.03
I think it's a bit harsh to say that Scott murdered Ugly John. He killed Ugly John, because Ugly John was dying, and doing so in great pain... that's a mercy killing, surely?

I still don't know what to think about the Xorneto revelation - my immediate instinct is "oh, for fuck's sake", but it was certainly a surprise, and does at least explain the killing of the U-Men..
 
 
Mike-O
02:52 / 14.09.03
LL, I don't believe he's insane.... he's of a different moral complex than most, to be sure, but insane? He is not hindered by some biochemical imbalance, or a warped sense of right and wrong. He see mutants as the heirs to the earth who can never be accepted by humankind, and that statement is very mucht he truth... if anything Xavier is the idealist detached from reality.

However, I would ultimately find myself on the same philosophical path as Xavier: to give up our strive for perfection because it is impossible is not only stagnation, but it is in turn to lose sight of the fact that it is the strive ITSELF which defines us, not the end result.

Thoughts?
 
 
Mike-O
04:35 / 14.09.03
And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Leningrad ordered to fire on Magneto b4 he took it out??
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
08:31 / 14.09.03
Why don't you apply this thinking to the X-Men? Charles shot Cassandra and currently employs Mystique. Cyclops murdered Ugly John. Storm would have murdered Calisto if a healer hadn't been present. Colossus had killed in his time. Wolverine would have murdered his own teammate Rachel in cold blood if she hadn't been saved by Spiral. So it's very much a numbers game ... I'd have to check Fatal Attractions to see if the EMP actually kills, but if he wasn't behind Genosha, then Magneto hasn't actually dealt out much death aside from the Leningrad.

Ok sorry, have to debunk some of this.
Cassandra shot Cassandra. Not Xavier. His mind was in her body. Charles pretty much spells out his refusal to use that gun on another living being earlier in the arc. We should have been suspicious then.
Cyclops and Ugly Jon was euthanasia. He put him out of his misery.
The EMP wave did kill hundreds if not thousands. Consider all those people who were on life support or using dangerous machinery. It is definitely noted that although Magneto didn't kill them directly his actions caused a lot of death indirectly.
Lets not forget he ripped the admantium out of Wolverine's body, without knowing if he'd survive. Thats a pretty harsh thing to do, even in self defense.

This thinking is applied to the X-men which is why its always so shocking when they do actually kill someone. Storm ripping Marrow's heart out springs to mind. She wasn't to know Marrow would have two hearts.

But my point I guess is that Magneto is the villain, we're not supposed to be suprised when he kills because he is the bad guy. The X-men are the heroes, when they kill there has to be something else behind it.
 
 
some guy
12:24 / 14.09.03
Cassandra shot Cassandra. Not Xavier. His mind was in her body. Charles pretty much spells out his refusal to use that gun on another living being earlier in the arc.

Good point about Cassandra. However, we have to ask why Charles had a gun in the first place. Not sure I buy his explanation, really.

Cyclops and Ugly Jon was euthanasia.

Potato, potahto...

Consider all those people who were on life support or using dangerous machinery. It is definitely noted that although Magneto didn't kill them directly his actions caused a lot of death indirectly.

The X-Men cause a lot of indirect death as well by battling in public. If Magneto wasn't thinking about the practical effects of the EMP then he's not a murderer - it'd be a manslaughter charge. Not that that's really any better, but let's try to focus.

Lets not forget he ripped the admantium out of Wolverine's body, without knowing if he'd survive.

This hardly makes Magneto a mass-murderer ... I'd file it under the personal section.

This thinking is applied to the X-men which is why its always so shocking when they do actually kill someone. Storm ripping Marrow's heart out springs to mind.

No, it's not. We're never really supposed to judge Logan (and fuck, look at the behavior in his solo series). And that goes for the other X-Men, too. Is Magneto's decision to sink the Leningrad really any different than Logan's decision to murder Rachel? Or Havok's decision to finally use his powers at full strength? Or Storm's decision to stab Callisto in the heart?
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
13:42 / 14.09.03
You are using very old examples...
There's been a lot more delving into the ethics of the X-men killing than that.
Oh and my Wolverine example wasn't to prove Magneto was a mass murderer, it was to show that he has a blatant disregard for the damage and pain that he is able to inflict. There is no "too far" for this man.

I'd argue that Wolverine was similar but to be honest I couldn't care less for the character so I can't be arsed to defend any of his actions.
 
 
Slim
13:59 / 14.09.03
1) Concerning Magneto's EMP, he would be charged with some degree of murder, not manslaughter.

2) While the whole Xorn=Magneto thing strikes me as completely ridiculous, you folks sure are getting worked up over something that has yet to be explained.
 
 
some guy
14:17 / 14.09.03
You are using very old examples...

There's no statute of limitation for murder...

Concerning Magneto's EMP, he would be charged with some degree of murder, not manslaughter.

Isn't the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent? In that case, we would have to demonstrate that Magneto intended the EMP to kill people on life support etc. If he wasn't thinking about it at the time, it's manslaughter. In fact, just going by what we've seen of Magneto in the past, I don't think it's unlikely that he experienced some form of regret later when he realized the implications.

Part of the problem with Magneto is writing. The Claremont Magneto had a clearly defined arc from his first appearance through his death in NXM 3. His actions were logical and consistent, and he was an idealogue but not a sociopath or indiscriminate murderer. Things get murky after that, with his bizarre behavior in Fatal Attractions and the Magneto War. Grant's use of Magneto so far seems to be an attempt to synthesize the two depictions (the Lilandra episode shows he's not quite the mustache twirler of Lobdell's period, and the U-Men incident is still waiting to be explained).

One possible reading is that whatever event stopped Magneto's apparent suicide in NXM 3 sent him over the edge, and now he's truly bonkers. Who knows.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:58 / 14.09.03
Why is Magneto saving Lilandra an example of him being a good guy? He's pretending to be a good guy, of course he's going to do the right thing. He doesn't want to blow his cover. Also, he had no reason not to help her. She doesn't apply to his masterplan, and he has no ill will towards her.

Profile Of A Sociopath (Or: Description of Magneto's Personality)
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
16:03 / 14.09.03
I think the "Lillandra episode" can be explained as Mags being in character as Xorn. It'd be far more suspect if he left her to die especially as Scott was there.
He's been holding back to put Xavier in a state of false security (although that is questionable considering some of the events that have been happening) and now its time to let loose.
Don't forget he gave Prof X his legs back only to take it away again, purely for fun. I think it was someone else who mentioned that Xorn was never called a 'healer' until Scott went off to get him in Imperial.
 
 
kid entropy
17:02 / 14.09.03
to the ones who keep piping up,telling others to 'calm down'etc....piss off ,we're excited, you dry .joyless .grownups.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:32 / 14.09.03
Just noticed what in retrospect is an enormous clue about Xorn: in #127, Charles tells him that when he tries to read his mind, he sees "orchards in China... a star falling across the sky". Then in the next issue, Fantomex shows up and almost the first thing he says is, roughly, "you only only see white roses when you try to read my mind because of my special THOUGHT-PROOF CERAMIC PANELS IN MY HELMET". That, coupled with the helmet Quentin builds and explicitly refers to as a Magneto design, ought to have set off a few alarm bells. But we were all too busy thinking "Grant, stop trying to make us like Fantomex, he's a cliche" (and of course he is, the Weapon Plus peeps wrote him that way) to notice.
 
 
Quireboy
19:27 / 14.09.03
Yes, Flyboy I noticed that - and posted it a few pages earlier! Magneto's strategy has focused on blocking and confusing the prying minds of telepaths throughout NXM.

Xorn's key (false memory); his helmet (blocks psi-probes); Martha's psychic static; Cassandra's memory of the womb I suspect is also false - I suspect she is part of the Weapon Plus programme; Fantomex's telepathy-proof mask; his false background - his house and mother (virtual reality?); the anti-telepathy helmet Quentin finds designs for on the internet - surely planted there by Magneto; recruiting Esme who helps set Quentin against Xavier; supplying Esme with Kick so she can overwhelm the group mind of the Stepford Cuckoos; setting Emma against Jean; the fake Weapon Plus files; finally destroying Cerebra.
 
 
some guy
19:47 / 14.09.03
Flux, why are you linking to a site that shows Magneto isn't a sociopath when you are trying to claim he is?

• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
• Shallow Emotions
• Incapacity for Love
• Callousness/Lack of Empathy
• Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Nope, nope, nope, nope and nope.

As for Lilandra - the episode in 125 not only had plausible deniability for Xorn not acting, but he risked his life to save her from the fall. Worse, he risked exposing himself to Scott by "flying" to save her (unless we're supposed to assume that all mutants can easily leap a floor or more to catch falling bodies). He wouldn't have "let" her die - she had already made her suicide leap. There's nothing that, say, Charles could have done in a similar situation.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate for Magneto here...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:04 / 14.09.03
Well we could go on like this ad infinitum but its really GM's call now. How bad is Magneto? Whats his big game plan?

We won't know till the bald man sings, or something.

Its not like Barbelith's idle specualtion has ever been right before...
 
 
bio k9
20:21 / 14.09.03
Unless MAGNETO WAS SECRETLY APOCALYPSE ALL ALONG!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:28 / 14.09.03
I don't know, I think you're still fixated on the Claremont version, LL - all of the items you're disagreeing with are definitely part of the character post-1992.

Well, except for Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency and maybe maybe maybe maybe Incapacity for Love.

Keep on playing devil's advocate, though. Somebody should.
 
 
deadhead
20:29 / 14.09.03
I havent had time to read the whole tread but man sorry if somebody posted that before.

Why Xavier said : I still that when I step down this summer you'll be willing to take over as headmistress of the institute:


I just found that to be a little wierd since my freind told me GM's run finishes next summer...and GM looks kinda like professor x..weill I think.. maybe


anyway
 
 
Quireboy
21:05 / 14.09.03
Rawkusboi - it seems clear now that Magneto wants to start a war betwen humans and mutants.

He has has been manipulating the X-Men on the one hand and the Weapon Plus programme* on the other to achieve this - whether he is behind the destruction of Genosha, or this was an unforeseen consequence of his plan is not known as yet. But I would suggest the former seems more likely.

Consider, Magneto wanted the X-Men to think he was dead so they would never suspect he was connected to any of their post-Genoshan crises; he wanted the world to think he was dead because 1) he would become a martyr and his philosophy would be taken up by the new generation of mutants, and 2) this provided him with a cover to subvert - or set up (see* below) - Weapon Plus.

*Unless Weapon Plus does not exist at all, and is a complete simulation based on the Weapon X programme. I suspect the files Wolverine saw were to some extent fake.

He has infected mutants with nanosentinels, which he can control with his magnetism.

He is the most likely supplier of kick.

And if you take his inverted map literally he intends to create Planet X by turning the world upside down, wiping out humanity in the process.

On an earlier point about Jean. I don't think the Phoenix is going to remove the extinction gene from humans, it more likely - from the Shi'ar's description of disinfection - that she's going to cleanse mutantkind of nanosentinels and kick.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
21:08 / 14.09.03
Rawkusboi - it seems clear now that Magneto wants to start a war betwen humans and mutants.

I know its in answer to my previous post but you've just said exactly what I said a few pages back. My point being that all the idle speculation on here is fun but we won't know the true story until we read it in NX.
Imagine if Apocalypse HAD been behind it all... wouldn't that have been a bit of a let down becasue you'd already guessed?
 
 
bio k9
21:47 / 14.09.03
No. I like being right all the time.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
22:23 / 14.09.03
So, okay. My big question of the day: Why now? Why did Magxorno decide that now was the time to start acting sinister and unmask? Am I missing obvious reasons here? Is it the absense of X-Men in the mansion?

I ask because it would seem, logically, that the Xorn identity has reached the end of its usefulness w/r/t Magxorno's masterplan. He must be feeling awfully confident that everything else is just going to fall into place from this point on, since the revelation of his subterfuge would likely drive some in the mansion to extreme acts of violence. Something was behind the disposal of the Xornsuit and I wanna know what it is.

But I'm sure we'll find out next issue.
 
 
sleazenation
22:29 / 14.09.03
Magneto's culpability in the massacre at Genosha seems to be key to our reading of his actions. It seems if he knowingly sacrificed the mutant population there he is simply a sociopath and consequently a fare less interesting and sympathetic character, where as if it is revealed that it was cassie nova, and characters such as john sublime, Magneto remains sympathetic.

Unfortunately, at this point it seems that the sociopath solution seems more likely. That coupled with Morrison's seeming willingness to embrace a return to the status quo of a live magneto versus Xavier and x-men in constantly recurring battles (negating his earlier attempts to change the book's dynamic). It seems such a shame because Magneto was proving to be an interesting martyr figure too.

And despite the masterful misdirection isn't anyone a bit annoyed in one of the main ways in which it was pulled off? - Dead means dead in the marvel universe unless we are lying, kind of similar to Warren Ellis' denials that elijah snow was the fourth man until he revealed that actually he was.

Still we still have a few issues left and Morrison could still surprise us. Perhaps the magneto will now turn charles into a martyr - which would be interesting if it now wasn't plain that his death would be entirely reversable, and consequently, meaningless.
 
 
some guy
22:31 / 14.09.03
I don't know, I think you're still fixated on the Claremont version

Well, I guess we could ask ourselves what the statute of limitations on behavior and characterisation is. Those stories are a part of Magneto, and help make him the person he is in the current storyline. We see hints of that Magneto (saving Lilandra and the Special Class) emerge even now. I think calling him a sociopath is needlessly glib and incorrect.

Anyway, all the big questions remain unanswered. I have a feeling this arc is going to really pull the rug out from under us...
 
 
some guy
22:34 / 14.09.03
That coupled with Morrison's seeming willingness to embrace a return to the status quo of a live magneto versus Xavier and x-men in constantly recurring battles (negating his earlier attempts to change the book's dynamic).

...unless the point of this "ultimate" Magneto story is to finally destroy the old series paradigm forever. This could be a wolf in sheep's clothing. And even if not - who the fuck cares? X2 used the same old 40-year-old formula and was great. Why are we expecting gourmet cuisine from an Easybake oven here? Let's just enjoy the cookies...
 
 
sleazenation
22:59 / 14.09.03
We see hints of that Magneto (saving Lilandra and the Special Class) emerge even now. I think calling him a sociopath is needlessly glib and incorrect.

WEll it has been argued that lilandra was saved only because it was in character - the special class are his new ideological recruits and as was shown 146 you are either with xorneto or, like dust - you are against him and need to be contained... I think describing Magneto as a sociapath is entirely valid if it proves to be the case that he he took it upon himself to orchestrate the death's of millions of his own people as part of an effort to jump start a war between mutants and humans.


But hey this might not happen and the ultimate paradigm shift might still be waiting for us as LLBIMG indicated. But if there is just a return to the status quo i'll be disappointed. To borrow LLBIMG's imagery...
if after leading us to expect something of a gourmet meal, with all new villains and all the trimmings it does indeed turn out to be a burgerking whopper of same-old we are actually dinging into I for one will be disappointed.
 
 
some guy
01:39 / 15.09.03
WEll it has been argued that lilandra was saved only because it was in character

Nope. Check out 125 again - Lilandra has already jumped to her death. Since Xorn can't fly, has no practical training, and is unlikely to be strong or agile due to his imprisonment, saving Lilandra arguably puts the identity ruse at risk. Charles and any other number of X-Men would have only been able to stand there aghast - it's the ultimate plausible deniability. Which means something else was going on. It's consistent with Magneto's past that he is willing to kill to achieve his goals, but not willing to kill (or allow to be killed) indiscriminately. But potato potahto I guess.

if after leading us to expect something of a gourmet meal, with all new villains and all the trimmings it does indeed turn out to be a burgerking whopper of same

Corporate superhero comics ... all I expect is that the Whopper is the best damn Whopper I've ever had. I'm not expecting a steak. The X-Men is about these characters, not other ones.
 
 
Mike-O
02:47 / 15.09.03
The more I think about it, sleazenation, the more I think you should expect the former, and not the latter which i agree would be completely anticlimactic and undeniably what I think we are all fearing: the discrediting of all that Morrison has given to this book and to the X Men in general with his run.

Seemingly, Morrison's motivations for killing Magneto in the first place way back in 115 were exactly what the character needed, but what no one was willing to admit: have these characters, this CONCEPT take the next step in its own evolution, and find out what the world is like when Xavier gets his chance, and gives "The Dream" its next breath. But of course it would be a waste for the brilliance of character, metaphor and analagy that is Erik Lensherr to simply go quietly into the night. I find Quicksilver's comment in 132 to be reflexive of that: "I believe my father's greatest trick is to be more dangerous dead than alive".

And so the general assumption is that while he IS dead, as a martyr the character lives on and continues to be the intricately complex and multifariously dynamic juxtaposition to the essence of Xavier's dream that Magneto has always been... though now, ironically, Magnus's role in that sense is given new life.

Now it's discovered he's still alive. More than that he's posed as a character which has served as perhaps one of the foremost representations of Xavierism (if u will), and now we see that he's pulled the rug out from all. How deep the deception is remains to be seem, though I sincerely hope he was not involved in the destruction of Genosha as that would seem DEEPLY out of character for him.

My point is (sorry it took so long) that is Morrison has all the foresight and imagination to which we have thus far credited him, I can see now that he's done all this with reason... if we all believed the death of Magneto to be what was best for the character, no doubt he saw as much too, only perhaps he saw more. One last story, to do Magnus the justice as a master manipulator, as despotic ruler, as the archetype of his cause that he could forever be defined by.

So I'm hoping....
 
 
The Falcon
03:42 / 15.09.03
Why should the star for a head have been obvious, by the way?

Is this a Star of David metaphor - I know Magneto is of Jewish parentage? I'd've liked to have seen his conversation with Dust.

I think he may have been pulling the strings on everything here, just about. If so, he's obviously morally repugnant.

Barbelith - Magneto awaits your final judgment(!)
 
 
Quireboy
10:25 / 15.09.03
Well how could an iron helmet contain a star?

Magneto is only Jewish in the film - isn't his background Roma (Gypsy) in the comics?
 
 
Jrod
11:48 / 15.09.03
It wasn't obvious. If it was there would have been discussion about the possibility somewhere along the line here in the forum, and I don't think there was. I'm not about to comb though 50000 posts to see, but no fanboy could resist gloating after guessing this little twist.

Magneto's just trying to make Xavier feel dumb, to put it mildly. And really, Xavier does now come across as rediculously naive. Not out of character, by any means, but he let his idealism get the best of him. Chuck may be a genius, but he's not very smart sometimes.

MAGNETO WAS RIGHT!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:02 / 15.09.03
It's never been definitively established that Magneto is a Jew in the comics, though it has been strongly hinted many times over. There's been a few writers who have suggested that he was of gypsy origin, but they are minority and weren't writing the more important bits of continuity. If we're going on Claremont's vision, and the one that has since been embraced by the films and other spin-off versions, then he is most certainly a Jew.

Once again, I find myself wondering why some people are worrying about Morrison's legacy on this title, not just because the legacy is of questionable importance if you're not planning on reading X-Men comics regardless of creative team for the long haul, but because this was all part of Grant's plan all along. This Magneto story is just a part of his masterplan as anything else. Don't blame him, you're the sucker.
 
  

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