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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men #146 (SPOILERS)

  
  

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diz
12:03 / 15.09.03
Magneto is only Jewish in the film - isn't his background Roma (Gypsy) in the comics?

no. CC was asked recently if Magneto was Jewish or Roma, and CC said "let's put it this way: i certainly never saw him as a Gypsy."

additionally, in flashbacks and such, weren't his parents fairly affluent bourgeois-types? in general, the Jewish population of Poland in the '30s was a lot more integrated into the bourgeoisie than the Roma, by a good margin.

and someone told me recently that either he or is parents spoke Yiddish in some flashback or other in the original New Mutants...
 
 
some guy
12:54 / 15.09.03
I'm fuzzy on the details of UXM 161 (which details the first meeting between Magnus and Charles), but isn't it in Israel?
 
 
MJ-12
13:08 / 15.09.03
All the seeming confusion can easily be resolved by simply looking at the last line of the issues. Morrison's entire run has just been one long dream sequence, and Xavier is about to wake up. Just like Dallas.
 
 
diz
13:19 / 15.09.03
I'm fuzzy on the details of UXM 161 (which details the first meeting between Magnus and Charles), but isn't it in Israel?

not sure about the specific UXM issue, but Charles and Mags did meet for the first time in Israel, that much i'm sure about.
 
 
fluid_state
14:56 / 15.09.03
About the whole "legacy", or lasting changes made to the X-titles by GM: I don't expect there will be any. That's the legacy right there, not for the fans per se, but as a template for future writers. Leave everything as you found it, insofar as the cornerstone characters are concerned. THe whole NXM run's been brilliant: everything changed drastically, and now the whole thing's being wrapped up and put back in the box for the next creator to play with. Not that this is a new idea at all for writers; it seems that with the bloated continuity of titles spanning 30 years it's become assumed that this was always the case. It's just that GM's done it really skillfully on what's become a major franchise, where emotional relationships and situations can change, but the core of it must remain static (for meta-marketing-continuity). There's gotta be,like, 3 million levels of corporate approval at Marvel for any writing done on X-Men ("Well, everyone loves the ideas, Grant, and the whole office is just crazy bout this Xorn guy, but Avi just doesn't think he'd fly in a line of Bobble-Heads. What else you got for us?"). All that may be done(as in possibly, not absolutley), in the long run, is give the Marvel Universe a whole bunch of new characters (the equivalent of Open-Source characters, to a large degree. some will live, many will be callously obliterated). And, of course, provide a pretext for the next writer who wants to evolve the ideas found in NXM (the school actually working, the dream coming true/X-Corp, ).

Course, Planet X just started. For all I know, the whole team could be killed next issue by a falling Sentinel or something.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:21 / 15.09.03
Re: Xorn and Bobbleheads, merchandising, etc

All's I know is that if there were action figures of all the X-Men characters when I was a little kid, Xorn would have been my favorite, hands down. He's got that Boba Fett appeal, you know?
 
 
vajramukti
16:37 / 15.09.03


it seems to me that mags/xorn has been trying to delibrately give chuck his chance, because, in his heart of hearts he truly believes that chuck will fail.

he removes himself overtly from the playing field, heals chuck's spine, and poses as the mutant buddha. he sits back, and waits, giving professor x all the rope he needs to hang himself. without the dialectical opposition in place, everything that goes wrong has to be laid at the feet of chuck, not magneto the evil bogeyman, cause he's dead. And sure enough, chuck's confidence in himself is totally devastated.

the only question is, how much is mags helping chuck to fail? It might well be that he can't resist undermining charles in little ways, even if he believes the integrationist creed is inherently faulty.

further still, charles has been forced to out himself, and the school, and take a more confrontational stance, bringing him and the shcool closer to mags way of thinking.

it's all mag's way of setting charlie up to fail, so he can swoop in and take his place as head of the mutant movement that has now fallen into his lap, by default. the brilliance is, he's given chuck the opportunity to prove himself wrong, giving magneto all the credibility he needs.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:50 / 15.09.03
Re: merchandising

I believe that there are actually some NXM-esque X-Men figures on the way, although I don't think that Magxorno is on the slate just yet.

For completists, there's also some knock-off Hot Wheels company that has inexplicably plastered one of the Quitely NXM covers (the Jean one) on the top of a tiny, hot pink hearse. It's indescribably odd and quite ugly.
 
 
Quireboy
17:04 / 15.09.03
vajramukti - that's exactly what I've been thinking. Magneto has exploited Xavier's character flaws - and those of the other X-Men.

Re. the idea that this is the "Ultimate Magneto" storyline in that this time he's gone too far. Well Magneto is one villain who will never stay dead, so what else does that leave? Perhaps the fire of the Phoenix to burn through his lies and expose his part in the Genosha massacre (if that is the case)? But the future arc doesn't suggest Xavier's philosophy wins in the end, or that the Phoenix deals with the toxic levels of mutantkind's aggression.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:21 / 15.09.03
haven't read everything in this thread yet but, this issue sucked. Yeah yeah, you're sick of hearing ME saying this, but Christ almighty. We have to have Page 1 to learn that Wolverine was 'sickened and disgusted' by what he learnt at the end of the last issue and that he set off the bombs. Neither of which was in any way indicated by what Grant actually scripted. Go look! I challenge anyone to explain how that reading could have been made on what we were given. And we learn that the Phoenix Force is 'growing at an alarming rate', again something we're told, not shown.

As for the Xorn= Magneto thing. I can only assume this is a decision that has been forced on Grant either after he introduced Xorn in the annual or something that only occured to him shortly before he wrote the script for Xorn killing the U-Men in the forest. Because, while you can explain away issue 127 as Magneto writing a letter to pull the wool over Xavier's eyes, there is simply too much stuff in the annual to explain away as Magneto manipulating events so he meets up with the X-Men. Xorn sucking in Magneto's dispersed energies I like, but then Xorn having the power to actually change matter would have to be another power, to resculpt his body to look like Magneto. And although Morrison is a fan of finding new ways to use old powers this isn't the Martian Manhunter or Reed Richards altering their mental chemistry to be smarter/crazier, this is bollocks of the highest order. It also might have helped if he'd let his artists in on the secret, as Xorn is built a lot differently than Magneto too.

I wasn't reading then, but when Magneto became ruler of Ganesha and was crippled, weren't his powers down to almost zero? So, he somehow evades being killed by a Sentinel that has no metal componants, records a mental message to make the world think he's dead, and set up a backstory of being inside a Chinese super-prison as their slave for some thirty years on the off-chance that the X-Men would be passing. On these grounds I'm willing to believe that En Sabuh Neh is alive and well and living next door to the X-Mansion. And Professor X is crippled again. Oh good. With him stepping down as headteacher they could probably also evacuate the school, close down X-Corp and then Phoenix can wipe the minds of everyone on the planet to Xavier coming out and then everything can go back to exactly how it was at the start of Morrison's run. Hit that reset button, hit it, hit it!

I'll be interested to see whether Grant explains this in the next issue or whether he's going to continue with this explanation-free style he's developed in 'the Filth' and just keep rattling on not worrying about things like plausibility and believability.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:56 / 15.09.03
Lady, you really DIDN'T read this thread, did you? Because if you had you'd know that Grant planned it this way and the artists knew all along. And you probably wouldn't have said a lot of the things you've mentioned, because we've worked a lot of it out and Grant really did work this out very well.

Xorn never healed anyone. There was never a man named Xorn. It was always Magneto. The thing in China was a big hoax.
 
 
Panic
23:00 / 15.09.03
I realize now that the dream of Grant bringing lasting change to a corporate franchise was foolish. As others have said, these are not his toys, and after he's done playing they have to be put back exactly the way he found them. Since this was the plan all along, I applaud him. Kudos, Mr Morrison. This round goes to you.
 
 
bio k9
00:49 / 16.09.03
I don't know if anyone else mentioned this or not but on page one of issue #119 John Sublime introduces Martha the bubble brain.

"Meet Martha Johansson. Martha's a metal fan."
 
 
vajramukti
01:04 / 16.09.03
well on a cursory re-read some things are clear.

firstly it seems pretty obvious from the get go that sublime and magneto are not working together. indeed, the first glimpse of feng tu is seemingly a sting operation set up to lure sublime into the mix. this sequence makes zero sense if john sublime knows the score.

in the same annual, emma points out that post-magneto, chuck is the 'only viable alternative to a world where mutants are ghettoised and exterminated', hence the realignment of loyalties in the mutant world, leading to people like emma and mystique cozi-ing up to the x-men. this again sets up magneto to be able to come back and inherit the whole shebang when chuck drops the ball.

there are number of instances of mags being a genuine role model and inspiration to the younger mutants. in many ways he seems like a better teacher than anyone else. note how he galvanises the special class against the u-men, at the same as the omega gang run amok seemingly due to failings on xaviers part. there is another bizzare refference to angel having xorn tell her that she'd make a good super hero...

there is also the question of who the six foot plus indiviual with the gun is, since mags needs nothing to subdue sage, let alone a gun.
 
 
The Falcon
01:18 / 16.09.03
The gun was left. It was evidence.

I'm quite enjoying the way Grant's 'retconned' the majority, if not the entirety, of his run. Emphasis is all shifted.
 
 
Hieronymus
02:48 / 16.09.03
Xorn never healed anyone. There was never a man named Xorn. It was always Magneto. The thing in China was a big hoax.

Which I'm still wondering how Morrison apologists plan on explaining away his healing of the bird, the necessity of the Zen diaries if this wasn't really Magneto and the key.

No offense, Flux. I know you're giddy as a schoolgirl over all this but personally, if it were a magic show, I'd damn well ask for my money back.
 
 
Mike-O
03:45 / 16.09.03
The bird is only the beginning, man..... there are many holes that I see....
 
 
Jack Denfeld
05:15 / 16.09.03
Mike O could you list some of the holes, and then we could try to explain some of them, because if there really are a lot of them I'd imagine not all of them would get explained in the remaining issues. I think the reanimated bird trick was either Magneto manipulating the iron in the bird's blood, or an actual small piece of metal had been inserted into the bird beforehand. I'm sure there are trickier ones, and seeing a list would be a good reason to sort through the back issues.
 
 
Jrod
05:46 / 16.09.03
Or hell, maybe Magneto just got his secondary mutation. Like, just maybe, he has a finer control over electro-magnetic fields, giving him control over brainwaves and nerve imbpulses? It would tie in with Magneto comunicating telepathicly with Prof X way back when Stan and Jack ran things. Not that I believe this, really, we don't know. Morrison will likely explain things more clearly in the next few issues. It's way too early to complain about plot holes when we're still missing half the plot.

I dunno that Xorn and Magneto are built differently. Magneto's no hulk, but he is a very muscular, big fellow. At least he was when I read X-Men, maybe he got emaciated in the intervening ten years... Of course, back then Kubert (Adam or Andy? Who knows?) was drawing every male from Xavier to Slim to the friggin Beast the same way... as well as drawing every female exactly like Jim Lee did, but I digress. The major sticking points are his voice and his scent, though those will likely be explained. I'll be dissapointed if Grant just expects us to buy this because he says so, but I have a bit more faith. He obviously planned this with some care.

It also occurs to me that, rather than a final knock down drag out battle royale, Xavier may just hand things over to Magneto. Chuck has given in to despair from time to time, and he's stepping down anyway, so it's somewhat possible. Not that Phoenix would be cool with that... guess we have to wait and see.

BTW, I don't think that was Xorn's arm holding the gun at Sage, it looks like Scott's skinny limb to me.

I know you're giddy as a schoolgirl over all this but personally, if it were a magic show, I'd damn well ask for my money back.

But the show's not over yet.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
05:48 / 16.09.03
Well, that's why I believe that when Grant introduced Xorn HE didn't know that he was Magneto, but I won't say anything else until I've caught up with the rest of the thread. Flux, I'm impressed with how well that cheerleader costume fits you, do you have the pom-poms too?
 
 
Jrod
06:19 / 16.09.03
Ethan Van Sciver has confirmed that Xorn was always Magneto. There, now you don't have to read all - JESUS, TEN PAGES! This comic came out less than a week ago!
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
06:47 / 16.09.03
After some thought on the matter, I have decided thusly: This is a shite plot, a shite twist, a shite waste of a brilliant character idea and I couldn't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about your fanboy justifications of how this is OMFG THE KEWLEST THING 4EVA!
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
07:21 / 16.09.03
Saying that clearly makes you not a fan boy! The way you mock with such use of silly internet language makes you right! Your over reactions to a comic book do not give you away in the least!
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
07:28 / 16.09.03
Jrod's post made me connect two things that I hadn't considered previously.

Xavier is stepping down. Magneto has been teaching at the Institute, seemingly successfully. Charles has been leaning towards a more Magneto-esque view of things, mutant law, mutant punishment. Jean is the obvious replacement as headmistress but what if it isn't Jean?

What if its Magneto?

Now that would be a lasting change to the status quo and nicely mirror CC's run.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:29 / 16.09.03
Lady, Logan holds up what looks like a detonator and tells Weapon XV that having found out about his past, he realises some people are only good for killing. Then boom. How is this not clear? Equally, Charles and Scott have been expressing concern over the increase in Jean's powers almost eevry issue - Charles in Paris, Scott in the helicopter in the prequel to Riot, Charlie again in #139 after Jean goes mental at Emma... I'm not inclined to give your criticisms much creedence when they seem to rely on having barely flicked through the run to date.
 
 
jebni
09:38 / 16.09.03
There were some weird things about the transition from #145 to #146, but Logan's suicidal self-disgust and Jean's spiralling into Phoenix mode *weren't* on my list, Lady. (How much more obvious do those things have to be?? Logan's clearly demented face was the best thing Bachalo did on his run.) But what was going on with Charles screaming "X-Men emergency!" every couple of pages, and then strolling around ever so casually? Perhaps I'm missing the irony here. I mean, Charles really is SO DAMN PATRONISING to Dust that perhaps Morrison's idea is to underline the Xavier School of Exceeding Smugness. Everything Is NOT Under Control.

The dialogue between Charles and Jean was damn weird, too -- too "melodramatically casual". "I'm going away soon"?? What the fuck is *that*? Perhaps it's the same angle: what if the lesson of such a stuffed-diorama of a scene is that everyone needs to panic, rather than campily sighing and exchanging blow-dried looks of false concern over-the-shoulder? And so maybe the fact that the Big Reveal is campy as hell is an extra level of diegetic play.

But none of this *quite* washes with me. If those things are intentional experiments in tone, designed to lull or unsettle, then great, but they're not really reaching me on a gut level. Instead, they look like laziness. I look at those bits of weirdness and equate them with the strange speech bubble placement in Hank and Emma's cockpit scene. And if *that* is yet another deliberate step, as some have alluded to, then I've got to say that sometimes such undercover cleverness is far too close to poor storytelling technique. Perhaps I'll come round to later, and build an elaborate scaffolding of justification for it ...
 
 
Spaniel
09:44 / 16.09.03
I'm sorry to tempt the stroppists, but I simply can't be bothered to read this entire thread.

So then, can someone please explain exactly what that Xorn solo issue was about? Are we simply supposed to believe that it represents a fake diary entry? Sounds like a load of old arse to me - utterly depowers one of the best mainstream comics in years.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:57 / 16.09.03
Its been discussed on this thread about 5 times, you can't miss it. Pick a page and have a read.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:27 / 16.09.03
A few things:

The 6'2 guy was Magneto. Check the official Marvel bio. Magneto is 6'2. He also has the same physique as Xorn. It gets a little confusing that a guy who was in a Nazi concentration camp would have such a strong, muscular body, but Magneto hasn't been using his original body for a long time (and neither has Charles). It's all continuity guck.

It's already been established that the skinny arm with the gun was Angel.

I still doubt that Martha is sinister. When Martha gets "snotty" it seems as though she is probably being controlled by Esme, a telepath who we know is in league with Magneto and is perhaps the snottiest character in all of X-continuity.

New X-Men #146: Proof that some folks just HATE to be a sucker, especially those who like to live in denial of the fact that they are reading a popular superhero comic book.
 
 
Spaniel
11:48 / 16.09.03
Read the thread now; I'm so easily goaded.

No, no I really don't think it has. Sure, it's been touched upon, but discussed?
The thing is, I can't help feeling that 117(?) being a fake is the narrative equivalent of digital special effects in stage magic. It ain't misdirection or clever slight-of-hand , it's a con trick.
It just feels, I don't know, a rather heavy-handed, somewhat clunky device.
It also seems like Morrison wanted to have his cake and eat it. He wanted the nice, intimate episode - a close-up on another side of mutant culture, and a portrait of a fascinating new character, whilst simultaneously knowing that it was all a load of bollocks - a hollow fiction.

I suppose it could be argued that the events were real and the diary entries were just there to add a diversionary spin, but this still doesn't answer the disempowerment charge. The fact is we thought we were reading one thing and we got another.

All that said, I really, really enjoyed the last episode - much, much better than the dreadfully inarticulate Weapon Plus storyline - and I'm very excited to see where Granty boy is going with all this. I suspect that Morrison will attempt to leave everything neat and tidy and utterly changed simultaneously. A good trick, but I think he has it in him.
 
 
jebni
12:14 / 16.09.03
I dunno Bobossboy, I think having one's cake and eating too is perhaps one of Morrison's greatest strengths, and one of the coolest things about contemporary popular culture in general. I mean, King Mob as a hugely enjoyable but critical play-through of macho power/gun fantasies? Check.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:27 / 16.09.03
I saw issue 127 as one of the best issues in GM's run. It gave Xorn depth and made us all love him that little bit more. It almost had me thinking Xorn could last beyond GM's run and bcome a premanent X-character.
The fact that this was all misdirection is even better. I can enjoy that issue on the basic storytelling/stand alone level but I can also enjoy it as a part of a larger plot. GM's greatest trick is to give us both an emotionally charged story AND, months later, a new perspective on that issue, one that doesn't necessarily have to change the events depicted rather than our interpretation of those events.

We're reading exactly what we want to read, just like Xavier. Part of Mag/Xorn's disguise is being able to fool everybody. Even the readers.
I agree that it is a dirty trick just to fool us but I like the fact that someone would go to those length's in a comicbook to avoid detection. We are part of Xavier's false sense of security, we get to be suckered just as hard as he does.
I think all the disappointment felt by those who don't like this latest development is exactly what Grant wants. Do you not think that he's laughing at every single one of us that gave credit to what he and Joe Q were saying every time the Death Of Magneto was touched upon.
I like that this has had to extent beyond the comics to remain a secret, that the EIC has had to outright lie to the public for 3 years now knowing fully well the truth about Magneto.

Its like GM's recreated the mini-conspiracy inside Marvel aswell as inside his own comic.
I'm looking forward to the rest of this arc and incredibly intrigued as to how he plans to tie it all in with the 'days of future past' arc that comes after.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:28 / 16.09.03
ok not issue 127... whatever issue is the Xorn solo.
Aw you know what I mean.
 
 
Quireboy
12:30 / 16.09.03
There's only one glitch I see in retrospect with Xorn=Magneto - and that's Xorn's height. Quitely drew him about 7ft tall - Beak even says he's 8ft tall in the edition where the special class are attacked by the U-Men.

In contrast Xorn looked about 5'8 in some panels of the Murder arc.

This doesn't of course mean the artists didn't know, etc. When you consider how no artist seemed to agree what age the Cuckoos were.
 
 
Spaniel
12:33 / 16.09.03
Um, it's the dynamic on this particular juxtaposition that annoys me. You see, Morrison seems to want a powerful story in the manner of aforementioned, but he also wants to disempower it at the same time. This isn't some fucking Taoist thing, it about satisfying storytelling. Now, if you're happy with that, great, but I'm not. I'll never be able to go back to that issue and enjoy it for the great, resonant tale that it was.

I'm sure there are those of you that revel in this kind of thing, however.
 
  

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