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New X-Men #146 (SPOILERS)

 
  

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Quimper
17:22 / 06.09.03
Because Xorn is a fictionsuit. Because this is the X-Men, and Morrison has been twisting its genetic makeup. Morrison has always been about bringing this book back to basics. The school. The special class. The most basic thing about the X-Men is the story of Xavier vs. Magneto vying for control of the mutants' future and place in society.

It's the honest pacifist vs. the manipulating devil. I see it as still being about evolution and unity and fictionalized reality. The methods of war of evolved to extreme subterfuge. The idea of unity is being dekcuf with in a very creative way. And how more can reality be fictionalized than by realizing it's been fiction this whole time?

But it's Xavier and Magneto's world. I love how the idea of NEW has been toyed with by it being the old dogs who have turned this book on its ass.
 
 
Logos
20:25 / 06.09.03
But, how can Magneto be Xorn, when Magneto is Phantomex?
 
 
diz
23:54 / 06.09.03
i concede that Magneto could have become Xorn, but i really don't see why he would. all of this seems like really a lot of bother for little or no payoff. it's not like he'd have needed to become someone new to get into the mansion. he hasn't really been on such bad terms with Xavier that he couldn't have just cozied up to him anyway.

this is especially true post-Genosha. if he had just crawled out of the wreckage and said "my God, Charles, this is madness! war against the humans is futile! so much death! you were right! let's work together!" everyone X-related would have sucked it up with a straw. sympathy goes a long way, and Xavier, frankly, is egotistical enough to let his vanity overcome him there.

also, if he's the Major Villain Behind Everything revealed in #146, i just don't see what motivation he would have for destroying Genosha, to begin with. i also don't see why he would tell the U-Men to harvest the Special Class and then kill them.

i also just can't see Magneto's internal dialogue looking like Xorn's in whatever issue it was where Xorn was wandering around the city or whatever. hell, i can't really see Mags even faking Xorn's external dialogue.

i think the idea that Scott is Apocalypse seems more logical, especially with what Flux (iirc) mentioned about Emma. Emma got killed (temporarily) by someone, presumably for knowing too much about something, after she's spent a lot of time poking around Scott's head. plus, whoever killed her knew where the flaw in her diamond form was, which is something that only came up in John Sublime's office in front of a couple of U-Men and Scott, and the guy who held Sage at gunpoint was about Scott's height.

also, there seems to be a general consensus that Kick has something to do with the whole thing. Kick would have had to have been developed by someone with a really strong understanding of mutant biochemistry and physiology, someone like Apocalypse or Sinister, who have made much more extensive use of this sort of experimentation before (enhancing powers, etc) than Magneto ever has. also, once thrown into an environment, Kick really raises the stakes as far as evolution and competition goes. it makes mutants five times as powerful as they used to be at the same time that it makes them insanely aggressive and violent and it also kills people taking it (like Sophie and Jumbo Carnation) who just can't hack it. Kick is ruthlessly Darwinian in the sense that Apocalypse understands Darwin: survival of the fittest.

i do think Xorn is key here, but not because he's secretly Magneto. Scott is the one who convinced him to join the X-Men in the Annual, and he's the one who went and got him in Imperial. i think Apocalypse became aware of Xorn at some point while he was imprisoned, and now he's brought him to the Mansion specifically to counterbalance the impending presence of the Phoenix, either to keep her occupied while he does whatever it is he does, or to incite the Phoenix vs Xorn slugfest just to see who really is the fittest of the fit.

that's another thing. since Xorn's ultimate power level is currently quite vague, but it's been implied that he is a serious heavy hitter, i think Xorn could put up a fight against Phoenix. however, if Xorn is secretly Magneto, then, despite his frightening levels of power, he still can't hold a candle to Phoenix, and his presence at the Mansion is going to be a hell of a lot less significant once Jean gets going and it's just going to become The Phoenix Show, which has been done before. if Phoenix emerges and she's countered by Xorn (if he's as powerful as a lot of people seem to think he is), that's something really new and different.
 
 
Ellis says:
07:52 / 07.09.03
Could Xorn have absorbed Magneto's magnetic consciousness, disembodied after his physical death in Genosha, when he turned into a black hole in the annual?

Thats the only plausable explanation I can think of.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
08:56 / 07.09.03
Sorry to go off your Mags/Xorn specualtion but I still think you're all missing the Dust thing.
I just noticed in the preview pages of 146 Dust is creeping up on Xavier as he enters Cerebra. The page before (possibly, the pages have been a bit screwy on all of the preview sites) is the one where Xorn is asking Dust for an answer to his proposal.

All this idle speculation is killing me though. When is the issue out?
 
 
Quireboy
10:07 / 07.09.03
Hmm. I think - if Xorn is Magneto - Quimper's speculation is probably near the mark. I'm not sure all mutants/humanity would be infected at this point but that would be a logical strategy.

Morrison has pared the X-Men down to its classic components - and the Magneto-Xavier feud is central to that. Yes, it does seem an awful lot of trouble for Magneto to go to. You could just as easily ask why Cassandra needed to involve the Shi'ar.

Anyway, remember how people asked how Xavier could have a secret twin sister all that time. Well if Magneto's involved in Weapon Plus then Nova's background was probably another false memory, like Fantomex's mother and Xorn's childhood. She was another Weapon Plus creation. It's best best way of throwing the world's three most powerful telepaths off your scent. And Morrison has done this before in the Invisibles - when Ragged Robin created a false memory to trick Quimper. Note also how all the most powerful telepths have been set against one another by Esme and her partner.

As for Magneto setting in motion the destruction of Genosha. It does seem a very Stalinist thing to do - to sacrifice so many of your people in the belief it will secure eventual victory. I mean it would to some extent legitimise a massive reprisal against humanity. It's very consipracy theorish - right up there with Michael Meacher claiming the US let September 11 happen to legitimise its plans to take over the Middle East.

Other points raised:

It's a moot point whether Kick actually killed Sophie or whether Esme took her out while she was in a weakened state.

Even if Xavier, egotist as he is, had welcomed Magneto into the fold many of the team would have been very suspicious (as when he became headmaster in Claremont's run). And how would he have explained wearing a anti-telepathy helmet if he didn't have an ulterior motive?

The motive for Emma's murder isn't clear to me either - and does tie in better with the Apocalypse theory. Unless it was simply an attempt to frame Phoenix and create more suspicion within the mansion.

I didn't notice Dust in that panel, I'll have to take another look at that.
 
 
sleazenation
10:35 / 07.09.03
erm - why exactly does magneto need to be alive to continue the dialectic between xavier and magnetos way?

Magneto has now become a mertyr to the mutant cause - his face and his message have survived him. Why exactly do we need him physically around. If anything Magneto's demmise gives his views a air of perminence that Xavier - his living opponent, lacks.
 
 
Quireboy
12:26 / 07.09.03
Magneto doesn't need to be alive to keep that dialectic going. But by pretending to be dead he's radically reshaped it.

Consider if he is Xorn, by subtle manipulation (with Esme's help) he's undermined Xavier beliefs and manouvered him into admitting his approach to human-mutant relations may be flawed. He's seen Xavier's students wearing 'Magneto was right' T-shirts and the Professor himself move towards a more assertive stance on mutant rights. Does he publically reveal himself now, and risk undoing the power of the mythos that surrounds his memory, because - as Quimper argues above - he's infected mutantkind and/or because following the Riot Xavier's credibility has taken a tumble?

Consider Quicksilver's comment in NXM132, the Genosha issue: "I think my father's greatest TRICK is to be more dangerous dead than he ever was alive."
 
 
Quireboy
12:34 / 07.09.03
Oh, and I see now in that Comics Continuum page Dust is trailing Xavier into Cerebra in her dust form.
 
 
Elegant Mess
13:35 / 07.09.03
dizfactor: " on the point of the Scott Sabah Nur theory: Weapon XV clearly chose not to kill Scott. why? has that been kicked around sufficiently yet?"

Well, because Weapon XV is THE THIRD SUMMERS BROTHER, obviously...

*fanboy shriek*
 
 
Quireboy
14:21 / 07.09.03
Hmm someone predicted that Xorn was Magneto on a Nightcrawler message board on 30 August. Suspicious.

Although so many people have fleshed out the plotline now it seems unlikely this rumour is a joke.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:28 / 07.09.03
Morrison has themes of evolution and unity and fictionalized reality. What would be the point of having Xorn -a truly unique and NEW mutant for a new century- be Magneto?

I love how there's a good number of people here who seem to want Grant Morrison to only ever tell one story over and over - and yeah, he does do that - but what if, y'know, this was just a different story? What if Grant Morrison didn't have illusions about what he was doing, and was just telling a kick-ass superhero/sci fi story?

Xorn was special and unique and cool so that it'd fool us. We wouldn't want him to be the bad guy. I think Grant is more concerned with his story being good than worrying about a lasting legacy on the X-Men, and rightfully so.

Why wouid Magneto go through all of this? Because he's a diabolical, scheming supervillain, silly. It's the most obvious answer.
 
 
eric minutes
15:42 / 07.09.03
So Magneto is Xorn...i get that....but are we to beleieve that Magneto is also the big threat at the end...Xorn/Magneto can't be the weapon X plant right?? Dust is more likely the plant...so that would still leave room for another baddie right??
 
 
Quireboy
20:12 / 07.09.03
But the Weapon Plus HQ is Asteroid M - so a) Magneto/Xorn could be the plant and the mystery supervillain, or b) Dust is part of a programme he is behind.

Plus Dr Sublime, the World, etc, could just as easily be an illusion as Fantomex's mother. Fantomex's assault could just have been a ploy to split up the X-Men and leave Xavier vulnerable.
 
 
Quireboy
20:29 / 07.09.03
One problem I have with Dust being the 'government plant' is she's barely been at the Institute. She was delivered to Wolverine by Fantomex, which is highly suspicious.

But there's a theory that it's Martha given that she was in Sublime's office. Who knows what's in the syringes in her bowl - nanosentinels, kick?

Yet another theory - which I don't buy but hey I could be wrong - is that Emma was involved all along and was shot because she fell in love with Scott, compromising the plot. Ok, so she was in Genosha but why not just tell the X-Men Xorn is Magneto after being resurected. Too many holes in this theory methinks.

Speculation, speculation ... ah, well we'll all know for sure soon enough.
 
 
diz
21:07 / 07.09.03
I love how there's a good number of people here who seem to want Grant Morrison to only ever tell one story over and over - and yeah, he does do that - but what if, y'know, this was just a different story? What if Grant Morrison didn't have illusions about what he was doing, and was just telling a kick-ass superhero/sci fi story?

i doubt it. everything he's done, especially since The Invisibles, is a project with a specific endpoint in mind. That's why he got so bent out of shape about Marvel Boys 2 & 3: they're his gonzo Aeon of Horus project and the culmination of everything he wants to accomplish by working in a pop medium. and he's talked about NXM in terms of the Qabalistic significance of each character's arc through this story and who's which Tarot card and all of that. it's not just about writing a kewl superhero story for him, and it's not even about Art per se, it's more about magic(k) and memes, about infecting society with Grant memes in order to cause change in accordance with the Will.

speaking of what he wants to accomplish in a pop medium, he has stated multile times that he wants to reshape the X-Men from a story about bigotry and resistance to a story about radical change and the accompanying generational power struggles.

the most telling part of all this, for me, so far, is QQ's death/transcendence scene. the most striking thing about that scene, to me, is that Professor X just doesn't get it. QQ is operating at a level higher than Xavier and sees things in a totally different way, and he tries to tell Xavier, but Xavier just doesn't get it, just can't get it because he's still stuck in the mutants vs humans, Mags vs Xavier dialectic. because he's stuck in the old conflict and doesn't see the new one.

i don't have the issue in front of me, but the most glaring example is when QQ is telling Xavier about how everyone's trapped in their little boxes, and Xavier says something like "Yes, life without telepathy. I know, I've seen it." and I just wanted to scream "NO, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT. It's not life without telepathy, it's LIFE WITH SUBJECTIVITY AND THE ILLUSION OF INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY that he's talking about. QQ is seeing that you're all a bunch of fictionsuits but you can't hear him because you think you already know what he's talking about, you silly old man." Their whole conversation is like that: QQ sharing some cosmic insight and Xavier being unable to step beyond his own train of thought because he's from the wrong generation: he's been surpassed and he doesn't really even understand the full implications of that, and he's very much stuck on the idea that he's the mentor, not the student, and as a result doesn't even realize how much he needs to learn. however, Xorn gets it, Xorn steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done.

the whole book, so far, has been about making the Xavier/Magneto conflict obsolete. the "mutant baby boom" makes questions of human/mutant cohabitation totally irrelevant: humans are on their way out. the fashion thing makes mutant political power irrelevant too, because mutants are "cool" now and they dominate the mental and cultural landscape, which supersedes gross political power, at least in GMs mind. Magneto's dead, and the new Xavier is a very different beast, sort of an early stage synthesis of the two poles of the Xavier/Magneto dialectic: peaceful, friendly, but openly mutant and openly proud of that and embracing the fact that mutants are different, and, on some level, better, or at least full of new ideas that can be brought to human society.

the Phoenix invites Charles to come closer to her, the force of raw change itself, but he can't without being annhiliated because, essentially, there's too much "him" there. the Phoenix tells him he will only lose things that he doesn't need, but he declines. he cannot both be the Charles Xavier that he knows and fully immerse himself in the torrent of change that's running through this book, so he steps back. he chooses continuity of identity over change, and, as such, change ultimately leaves him behind. QQ tries to explain it to him on his way out, but he's not listening, or, more accurately, he can't hear.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:27 / 07.09.03
Ok, well, I'm not going to make a speculation about Xorn being whathismagneticface because that seems to be the foregone conclusion at this point. I've seen enough posts on other boards that seem to be the truth.

An interesting thing to to note, though, is something that I noticed when re-reading this past weekend. Remember when Sage gets mindwiped and then Bishop finds her in the forest babbling? Her first words are "The sun in a box! The sun in a box!"

Well, jeez, who could that be about, do you suppose?

Dust being the plant is super lame in my opinion. Someone who has been in all of 3 or 4 panels? Martha being the plant is much more interesting, though.

The thing I don't get is how Weapon Plus, the Sentinels, and Magneto all connect? If Magneto is orchestrating everything, why is he using Sentinels and Weapon Plus at all? Sentinels and Weapon Plus destroy mutants, not humans. Seems quite counter to what Magneto is all about, yeah?

I do like that every single arc of Grant's run has involved Sentinel technology as his uber plot behind it all. You don't really pick up on it until you read it all straight through. Sentinel this and Sentinel that.

I'm curious if we know whether or not Grant's final issue ends in the present time or in his Silvestri portrayed future time?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:29 / 07.09.03
Dizfactor, don't you ever just wonder if you're being very gullible?

You're wrong about Quentin's death scene. Quentin isn't without telepathy, it's the opposite - he has too much of it. He's babbling about hearing all of these thoughts all thinking the same thought. (Which may be a hint - he says he's hearing thoughts in Chinese, Arabic, and French. Hmmm. Xorn, Dust, and Fantomex.) He tells Charles that he's missing the point, but perhaps what Quentin is referring to is exactly what he's telling Xavier at that moment in time. Xavier thinks he's just talking about telepathy, but it seems pretty clear now that Quentin is trying to alert Xavier to what it going on all around him.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:34 / 07.09.03
C'mon. It's very unlikely that Martha is the plant if just because Martha is deeply afraid of the U-Men and murdered John Sublime because she hated him for what he did to her. That character was obviously set up for the audience to feel sympathy for, and there's been nothing at all that she's done that's been the least bit suspicious. She's just a sad, depressed girl who's had her body stolen from her.

Meanwhile, Dust is brought to the X-Men's custody by Fantomex, a man who was created by the Weapon Plus program to murder mutants. There is no reason to trust Fantomex. That one panel with Dust appearing near Cerebra seems pretty damning too.
 
 
Quireboy
22:36 / 07.09.03
Oh, I agree - it is likely that the whole slavetrader set up was just another of Fantomex's illusions. But Dust hardly seems to have spent enough time at the Mansion to be an informant - although I've no idea how much time has passed during the Assault on Weapon Plus arc. (I don't know how much of the Weapon Plus programme should be considered an illusion though.) I wonder what she does to Xavier?
 
 
diz
22:45 / 07.09.03
Dizfactor, don't you ever just wonder if you're being very gullible?

of course i do, but self-critique is just part of the game.

Quentin isn't without telepathy, it's the opposite - he has too much of it.

i didn't say Quentin was without telepathy. i said that when he's talking about everyone being trapped in their little mental cells, Xavier thinks he's just talking about people without telepathy, but he's not.

he's talking about people, even people with telepathy, being trapped inside their own minds and their own sense of identity. Xavier, essentially, misses the boat because he doesn't think QQ is talking about him (Xavier), too, just all the poor little people out there without telepathy.

Jean, when she's Phoenixing out all over the U-Men, says something very similar about how they're all stuck looking at reality through their little portholes.

telepathy in NXM is a gateway to a more advanced stage of consciousness, but it's not that stage of consciousness itself. "the raft is not the shore," as it were. Xavier has missed that point. the Phoenix gives him a chance, but he can't take it. he's too far along his own road and can't/won't unlearn his own teachings. it's up to his students, like Jean and QQ, to finally step out of his shadow and surpass their teacher. QQ tries to tell him that, but he doesn't get it. telepaths, in NXM, are essentialy "one level up," in some sense, from regular people, but QQ is going a level up from that, and Xavier totally misses it.

-------

on the Dust vs Martha issue, i'm with Flux. i think it's Dust.
 
 
Quireboy
22:49 / 07.09.03
I guess given what we know - or almost know for sure - the blurb about the sentinels being the good guys in the future arc is somewhat consuing at this stage, as it seems Magneto has - at the very least - been exploiting their technology.

Anyway, yes that staff about thoughts in Arabic, Chinese and French - well spotted. Only Fantomex isn't French and Xorn isn't Chinese - and Dust as an Afghan would speak Farsi not Arabic. So I don't think it was part of Quentin's warning.
 
 
Seth
23:05 / 07.09.03
The really obvious stuff you're all missing is that Dust is Nanny and Xorn is one of the Brood (have you all gone mad and ignored the Flying Shark references?). Xavier is Sym and Beak is Nimrod, which means that Fantomex has to be Callisto. Forge has opened the gateway of his ass and it must be sealed. They're all fucking fictionsuits, people!
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
07:45 / 08.09.03
What people seem to be missing is that if Xorn is Xorn and not magneto then Xorn could move a taxi using gravitational pull rather than magnetisim. Duh.

This Xorn=Mags thing is either a runaway rumor that geeks like flux need to believe OR a carefuly constructed anti-spoiler.
 
 
diz
08:00 / 08.09.03
as much as i'm in disagreement with Flux here, i don't think your characterization of him is totally fair. he's been pretty level-headed about most things concerning NXM in my experience.q
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:50 / 08.09.03
"Nobody dies in New X-Men, theyn just change." - Grant Morrison in a recent interview.

Huh.

At first I was convinced this was a hoax, because I didn't see how Magneto could repair damage inflicted by the nano-Sentinels as well as stop them inflicting any more. But then it occurred to me that you could just commandeer them to repair instead of damage... Huh.

I'm just glad the "we weren't meant to see Xorn wasting those U-Men as sinister or wrong!" line will be thoroughly trashed...

Wouldn't Logan *smell* Magneto, though?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:07 / 08.09.03
Also: an iron prison. He keeps saying that... doh!
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:33 / 08.09.03
What people seem to be missing is that if Xorn is Xorn and not magneto then Xorn could move a taxi using gravitational pull rather than magnetisim. Duh.

This Xorn=Mags thing is either a runaway rumor that geeks like flux need to believe OR a carefuly constructed anti-spoiler.


A preview issue hit comic shops last week to drum up this kind of fan interest. Its not a rumour it is a fact I'm afraid.
The speculation is about why not who.
 
 
DaveBCooper
09:37 / 08.09.03
I’ll be honest, I’d rather Xorn wasn’t Maggy or Apocalypse or something like that – the moderately self-contained nature of Grant’s run on NXM, and the fact that you don’t have to know much about the history of the characters, is something that I’ve rather enjoyed. But that’s just my feeling on it, and we’ll see soon enough, I guess (clicked on the links, and none of them seemed to contain the ‘aha, it was me all along, whoo-ha-ha-ha-haaa!’ reveleation, but maybe I missed something).

And given the number of theories that are being thrown around here, I have to wonder : how much of some readers’ enjoyment derives from speculating about the stories, and spotting the Qabalic references and whatnot, as opposed to the delight in reading the story.

Thought : if the internet had been as prevalent in the time of Watchmen’s initial release, I have a horrible suspicion that a lot of people would have been berating other posters “for not spotting the obvious fact that the Comedian’s behind it all”…
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:42 / 08.09.03
I also must admit I but into everything Diz has to say about Prof X vs Mags now being new vs old, In vs out. But I don't know quite how that will be effected by the return of Magneto... it seems almost counter productive to the whole 'moving on' schtick.

Anyone placing bets as to how many GM characters will survive past his run? So far he's killed off or incarcerated his student creations. I expect Dust, Esme and probably the special class to be gone by the end of his run, in one way or another. Xorn (his most promising new creation) is Magneto in disguise so we've lost that one already.

Re: "Sun in a Box" I thought it was Xorn but I couldn't work out why.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
09:50 / 08.09.03
If someone would care to scan the "preview issue", I'll believe you and also eat my hat.

But no such issue exists. I think you're fibbing.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:57 / 08.09.03
As far as I'm aware only the stores get preview issues and then only one copy... anyone here at a store who wants to make Radiator eat their words?

I don't care either way if its a huge hoax then well done, if its true then lets continue the guessing. But I've never seen so many different people hoaxing with the same info before. I don't think anyone could really be bothered.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:45 / 08.09.03
The Man In The Iron Mask. But of course. Magneto thinks of himself as the rightful ruler of mutants/the world ('Return Of The King' was the recent Ultimate X-Men arc featuring Magneto; X2 featured references to The One And Future King by T.E. White). Xavier - a kind of 'brother' to Mags - has usurped that role, until now. Mags is Philippe, Charles is Louis.

I'm not sure how it all fits together, but I dig the symbolism.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:12 / 08.09.03
A worrying thought.

Is Grant undoing everything he's done on NX?

I was reading some reviews of this issue and something struck me, it is quite possible that by issue 154 (his last one) we could be seeing the X-men return to a pre-GM status quo.

Think about it.

Xorn is Mags, so mags isn't dead after all. This has been the one big change that has guided his entire NX run. Most of the concerns I've noticed online about any new writer for NX is how they'll continue GM's stories or how quickly will it all be retconned.
I'm getting the feeling that GM has retconned it all himself so he's in control.

Emma will probably leave the mansion as she says in the preview.
Xavier is crippled again.
Mags is alive.
Jean will either be dead, de-powered or in control so as not to be any different than before.
God knows (from the specualtion on here) what parts of the U-men/Cassandra Nova/Weapon X arcs were actually real and not just faked (although I think this mass illusion idea is too far-fetched even for Grant, whole arcs that eventually meant nothing?).

If this is the case it makes his entire NX run easily shelved and TPB'd as the Morrison years and Marvel can go back to their producing marketing machine afterwards.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:16 / 08.09.03
I think that's why I'm refusing to accept the Magneto rumor, man- it goes against all the cool ideas in his manifesto.
 
  

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