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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
15:38 / 18.08.08
You might want to point to an example of Haus' racism. Like, an actual example, rather than him saying that you're a bit thick and you deciding that the only reason for it is because you come from a different part of the world than him.

If you can't, then pack in the baseless accusations right now.

Hector, meanwhile, has clearly missed the bit where it was explained that haus and I need to be in agreement on any motion to ban, followed by the bit where I said that it wasn't something that I was leaning towards. It's far more likely that he didn't miss it, of course, but decided to pretend that it didn't happen because otherwise he wouldn't have been able to perform his little toys/pram/eject piece.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:59 / 18.08.08
What about you explaining why you accused me of being aggressive on the B&R thread at some point, Haus?

Already, I think we have a reading problem, or a reporting problem. What I said was that your attempts to rot the thread were aggressive, which seems self-explanatory to me. In the context of your role in another thread in which geekulation about Heath Ledger's death had run beyond baseline taste and decency, your arrival in the immune response feels pretty aggressive.

However, there is a broader issue here, which is roughly that, for my money, your presence on Barbelith is in itself a fairly constant act of aggression. If Barbelith had sensible constraints on behaviour, you would probably have been thrown overboard at the point of your assault on alas (now sadly departed, and worth a dozen of us) in the Feminism 101 thread, or at the very least would then have been given a short noose which would have led to your swift expulsion when you went off at alas and zippy in the racism in music discussions (and the idea that feel that you are in a position to call me a racist at this point is so breathtaking as to wonder whether you have any long-term memory whatsoever).


Also, when a board has four self-identified Portuguese-speakers, and three of them have said they feel you are being racist towards them (and the fourth hasn't post in months), you should really start wondering what it is that you are doing wrong, don't you think?


I think that what I am doing wrong is not pushing hard enough to ban people for behaviour that would get them banned on any board with the same aspirations as Barbelith has or had. For starters, your first statement is another of those fibs that you and Hector seem keen on at present. deja_vroom/Jade posted recently. I'm not sure who else you might have in mind. I seem to have managed to get on with Alex Thoth, Impulsivelad, Money Shot while he was out of his tree and Pacha Perplexa (before your time, which is probably for the best because woman), to name but a few, all of whom spoke Portuguese. Also, as we have already mentioned, Portuguese is a language, not an ethnicity. If you are saying that I hate all speakers of the Portuguese language, then (a) that isn't racism so much as linugistic chauvinism and (b) you are, although this is not uncovering any deep secrets, an idiot. As I asked before, does this mean that I also hate Angolans? The dreaded men from Macau? They race dogs, you know.

To be absolutely clear - the fact that I feel Barbelith would be a better place, having averaged out the good and the bad, without the contributions of yourself, Hector Lima and MFreitas has nothing to do with the geographical happenstance that means that, despite being scattered across the globe, you all speak Portuguese. I suspect that I would be much happier if you chose to write in your lovely mother tongue rather than in English, since my comprehension would be limited to that provided by the fact that some of my best friends are Romance languages spawned from Lusitanian Latin.

So. I understand, I think, exactly why you, Hector and MFreitas have chosen this angle of attack. I hope that anyone outside the talentless tenth will have as much respect for your accusations, and for you having made them, as I. We take all such accusations seriously, but there's a limit. These frivolous claims need to be policed, because they create a hostile atmosphere for attempts to resolve genuine complaints. With that in mind, I'd be happy to start the ball rolling on banning the three of you right now, if you think that would help. Perhaps with your enthusiastic support Randy can be persuaded.
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:12 / 18.08.08
yeah, the whole thing gives a feeling that some parties are actively trying to perform "euthanasia" on Barbelith, hence the threats ob ban the "people we don't like just because we don't like them" (regardless of any euphemisms used to cover such fact, such as "inability to raise yr game")

Or it could be because some posters are being percieved as being detrimental to standard quality of posts on the site and have little to do with personal likes and dislikes (unless you're counting disliking the general drop in quality of the site I guess).

I'm not too worried about a Barbeclique wiping out all "opposition" on the board, primarily because I trust the decision making skills of the two moderators who have anything approaching an ability to ban.

The term "euthanasia" seems to suggest (to me) a concerted effort to finally put the site out of its misery. Is that what you're suggesting is happening? At the moment we're just discussing whether it's going to make any real difference, sure there've been a few yays, but there's been a few nays too.

Haus, you made reference to you having some specific responsibilities regarding the site that you were going to discuss. Could we get some more information on that please?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:20 / 18.08.08
Yeah, sorry. I keep getting sidetracked on that by my burning hatred of the East Timorese in Tetum. I'll start a new thread.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
16:24 / 18.08.08
can't get out before addressing:

i did miss it, Randy, sorry... and thank you.

Portuguese speakers may have occasional comprehension problems when reading posts [i know i have mine], and at the same time the patronising attitude towards them were what prompted my infamous blackface act; it was more a reaction than anything [as i've explained before]. maybe a reaction based on bad interpretation of context [i don't think so in this particular case, myself].

and bad interpretation is what all of this madness has been about. what i think Haus failed to understand in the Batman thread is that different cultural backgrounds provide you different point of views as to how to approach a message.

the same patronising view is what i think fueled the accusations of racism in the latest Batman comics. the fact that the homeless character MAY be a figment of Bruce Wayne's mind makes this all the more interesting - and funny.

it speaks more about Wayne's mind inherently bringing archetypal \ stereotypical constructions to help him use this back-up personality than of Morrison's bad perceptions on race.

GM has been one the authors in mainstream Comics that have contributed to repopulate the universes he toys with with more ethnical variety without using token characters. and being a Scotsman himself - who lives in a country taken over by another one - i guess it's patronising to consider the opposite; while possible, it doesn't seem to be the case here.

we can't escape our cultural backgrounds, but it's how we deal with others' that is the thing. and this is in between the lines, that what makes it more difficult.

over and out.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:27 / 18.08.08
Stops watch

Not only am I rascist to Brazilians. I am also rascist towards Grant Morrison.

SOMEBODY STOP ME.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:43 / 18.08.08
Shit, can we get some spoiler tags on this thread? There's a reason I don't hang out much in Comics, you know...
 
 
HCE
16:52 / 18.08.08
How can Haus be racist when he's publicly stated he's hot for Tilda Swinton, who is Scottish?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:31 / 18.08.08
I fetishise the exotic unfamiliarity of her height, pale skin and red hair.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:59 / 18.08.08
You might want to point to an example of Haus' racism. Like, an actual example, rather than him saying that you're a bit thick and you deciding that the only reason for it is because you come from a different part of the world than him.

If you can't, then pack in the baseless accusations right now.


Well, following the "concentrate on what they did, not on what they are" line of reasoning, I didn't say Haus was racist, I said that Portuguese-speakers at large were feeling like he was saying or acting in a racist fashion, and that he should make a pause and make an effort to examine such fact. As such, i accuse no one of actually being racist. But, hey, if you want an example of what I'm saying, this comment right here:

I keep getting sidetracked on that by my burning hatred of the East Timorese in Tetum.

is an example of what I'm saying. People in East Timor has underwent a couple of very nasty decades due to their cultural identity, and using them as a sarcastic way of telling Portuguese speakers off is a no-no in my book.

Already, I think we have a reading problem, or a reporting problem. What I said was that your attempts to rot the thread were aggressive, which seems self-explanatory to me.

Well, it's not. It's a baseless accusation, a "frivolous claim" based on prejudiced opinion about me, as you state yourself:

In the context of your role in another thread in which geekulation about Heath Ledger's death had run beyond baseline taste and decency, your arrival in the immune response feels pretty aggressive.

So, because we had a fight in another, loosely-related thread, my pointing out that your sense of humor was on a weak day in that threat must have being aggressive? Now, that's not a rational argument. I was trying to spare you a lot of unnecessary trouble. And you probably should have listened.

And I'm not even sure on what you mean with "geekulation". I only expressed how awful was his death using the Joker as a reference, and later linked to an article that related insomnia problems with and accidental overdose of sleeping pills. It was other people who started talking about he Joker's psychic power and stuff like that 9which I kept trying to point out it was not what I meant). but we've been over this at least five times already, so screw that, you'll never believe me anyway.

I seem to have managed to get on with Alex Thoth, Impulsivelad, Money Shot while he was out of his tree and Pacha Perplexa (before your time, which is probably for the best because woman), to name but a few, all of whom spoke Portuguese.

The fourth person I was mentioned was Pacha. Alex Thoth, Impulsivelad I did not know, so kudoz, It was not 3 out of 4, it was 3 out of 6. Sooo much better.

Money Shot was not included in that figure because his primary language was not Portuguese, but English. And, on a side note, he told by PM before leaving for good that he was going to leave due to the "high level of snide and arrogance" [I'm paraphrasing] in the board, which still pissed me of about all who signed up to such attitude, the so-called "barberoyals" (Haus included), but that is another thread completely, and one I don't care about to start.

Also, as we have already mentioned, Portuguese is a language, not an ethnicity. If you are saying that I hate all speakers of the Portuguese language, then (a) that isn't racism so much as linugistic chauvinism and (b) you are, although this is not uncovering any deep secrets, an idiot. As I asked before, does this mean that I also hate Angolans? The dreaded men from Macau? They race dogs, you know.

Again, with the attitude. Ok, not racism, just a more generalistic prejudice, then. Is that more acceptable to you?

The term "euthanasia" seems to suggest (to me) a concerted effort to finally put the site out of its misery. Is that what you're suggesting is happening?

No, I'm suggesting it just looks that way, but that's certainly accidental. To think there is actually a ploy afoot to that end would be conspiracionist paranoia. But still, it does look that way, which is bad enough
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:10 / 18.08.08
One final comment: despite the fact all Portuguese-speaking peoples of the world do not make a single ethnicity, we do fell a connection based on our shared historic background that is not unlike the one experienced by a single ethnic group (don't you English-speakers feel the same?), so any sarcastic offensive remarks about Angolan, or East Timorese, or Portuguese, or even Macau people, will be offensive to me as a Brazilian. Just FYI.
 
 
grant
18:13 / 18.08.08
Not that it really matters too much, but Alex Thoth and Impulsivelad were the same person and Spanish-speaking (from Hialeah), although I think he understands Portuguese.

I do get the feeling there's a not-terribly-well-examined self-applied idea about Brazilianness that involves one kind of racial integration (something like, "We are Brazilian! Our racial differences are sexy!") as opposed to American ideas (we are American! We're a melting pot of hard-working immigrants who all have a shot at success!") or British ones.

I'm not in Britain and don't know what those are, exactly, but my feeling is that the popular views on race aren't even in the same mode as sexiness or workingness, and that at least in this corner of Barbelith that will remain forever (etc.), there's a conceptual gulf. Even a paradigmatic one. And Barbelith in general has been about examining those paradigms as well as the way they're expressed by individuals.

In other words: 1. There's something different about the way people in Brazil are conditioned to talk about talking about race, and 2. That doesn't really matter here, because people=individuals and conditioning=!impermeable, unchanging difference.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:17 / 18.08.08
Ok, not racism, just a more generalistic prejudice, then. Is that more acceptable to you?

Yes. I am prejudiced against idiots, Dead Megatron. Well done.

Again, wonderful that Dead Megatron - So, what tha article is saying is, if gangsta rap is misogynistic, it's the white burgoise's fault? Dead Megatron - is telling me off for mentioning East Timor while ridiculing his attempts to debase the idea of racism to the point where it means "being mean to Dead Megatron" - that is, cheapening and disrespecting the experience of those who are suffering from genuine racism, rather than from a bruised ego from people pointing out that they are an idiot.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:28 / 18.08.08
Well, my position on the gangsta rap debacle was wrong and needed reviewing. Luckily, it was three years ago, and I changed a lot since.

Again, Haus, 3 out of 4. Think about it. If I, being an idiot, can understand how that looks strange. why can't you?


Oh, and I forgot to talk about the alas issue. I snapped at her at the Feminism 101 thread because she though it would be didactic to tell me I may have raped someone without knowing it. Having a history of surviving abuse myself (the details of which are not your fucking concern), pissed me off beyond belief, which lead me to tell her to fuck of. If anyone else implied the same again, they would get the same enraged response. And that was also 3 years ago.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:37 / 18.08.08
Yes. I am prejudiced against idiots, Dead Megatron. Well done.

No, you are prejudiced against Portuguese-speakers*, who you just referred to in general as idiots.





* or rather, speaks in prejudicial terms towards them.
 
 
grant
18:41 / 18.08.08
Dead Megatron, please, please, please go somewhere and calm down for a bit. Enjoy the fact that there's no tropical storm making your afternoon commute wet and hazardous. Have a cold something to drink.

This thread will be here when you get back.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:41 / 18.08.08
No, you idiot. I am prejudiced against idiots of all nations, creeds and tongues. One of these idiots is you. Language doesn't come into it.

I don't get any pleasure out of doing this, but I am so tired of stupidity like this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:01 / 18.08.08
Back roughly on topic:

Portuguese speakers may have occasional comprehension problems when reading posts [i know i have mine], and at the same time the patronising attitude towards them were what prompted my infamous blackface act; it was more a reaction than anything [as i've explained before]. maybe a reaction based on bad interpretation of context [i don't think so in this particular case, myself].

Interestingly, what this is saying is essentially _precisely_ what Randy wanted him _not_ to say:

You might want to point to an example of Haus' racism. Like, an actual example, rather than him saying that you're a bit thick and you deciding that the only reason for it is because you come from a different part of the world than him.

This is exactly what Hector is saying - that he feels that frustration at his inability to comprehend things is necessarily because he is Portuguese. Fuck knows why. People who are not Portuguese but who are equally unable to comprehend things get criticised all the time.

It also highlights the Colonel Kadmon idea - that it's very hard to get any sense out of people who have no real sense that actions that have happened in the past actually happened in a particular way, and will continue to have done so. Hector wants his blackface to have been inspired by me telling him that his filthy Portuguese ideas are worthless, I tell you, worthless. Actually, they followed on from Boboss and The Natural Way asking him to go back and read the thread again, not because he was having comprehension issues, necessarily, but certainly because he was, if not, flat-out fibbing about what had happened. The Natural Way said:

But, Lima, that's not what he said at all. He dismissed the importance and relevance of discussing race in relation to GM's Batman, and the fact that that has been spelled out to you numerous times now (and, y'know, you can go back and actually read his post if you need proof) and you're still framing the discussion the way you are means you're either being incredibly disingenuous, ignoring people's posts or you just have serious difficulty absorbing what others have written. Whatever. It makes it very hard and frustrating for others to communicate with you, and renders your contributions to this or any other thread ignorable at best and a pain in the arse at worse.

Nothing from me, nothing about him being Portuguese. Hector is justifying his behaviour now based on total fiction, which I don't personally think is in any way related to the language he might be thinking these fictions in. You can see something similar in his attempt to represent the part of the Batman thread that he lies about MFreitas' reaction to as, essentially, a group of people, who do not understand Grant Morrison as he does, accusing Grant Morrison of racism. This, again, is not about comprehension issues. It's about making things up and then optionally losing your shit if you are asked to check whether the things you have made up actually happened.

The funny thing is that he and MFreitas probably both feel that they are doing the Lord's work by protecting Grant Morrison's work - and thus by extension the man himself - from any examination deeper than they are comfortable with. Which, incidentally, is why I am not terribly scarred by the "3 of 4" that Murgatroyd keeps banging on about - Pacha was a pretty smart and well-adjusted person with good social skills, and we got on pretty well, whereas Dead Megatron, MFreitas and Hector Lima have interaction problems that utterly transcend nationhood, as we have already seen because they come from two different continents.

So, to recap, the accusations of racism are entirely frivolous, as Dead Megatron's dissembling, arse-covering and flat-out lying are now rather demonstrating. I don't enjoy them, or the dissembling, arse-covering and flat-out lying, and I don't think that those who are throwing them around are going to be able to stop. Which brings us back to a heightened version of the initial question posed in this thread, really.
 
 
Evil Scientist
19:05 / 18.08.08
No, I'm suggesting it just looks that way, but that's certainly accidental. To think there is actually a ploy afoot to that end would be conspiracionist paranoia. But still, it does look that way, which is bad enough

I can see how it would look that way DM, especially from a viewpoint that might be affected by the change in policy wrt banning. But I have to say I can't see it myself, as it's going to target a relatively small number of people (right or wrong) so it's hardly an extinction-level event.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:03 / 18.08.08
hence the threats ob ban the "people we don't like just because we don't like them" (regardless of any euphemisms used to cover such fact, such as "inability to raise yr game")

Ah come on. Remember Paranoid Writer? Dude could not for the life of him realize that his posts, especially in this forum, were at best worthless and time-wasting. It wasn't about liking or disliking the person, so much as they things they said and the way they said them. By which I mean it's merely incidental that Haus doesn't like you and that several people think you're unable to raise your game.

Oh, and I forgot to talk about the alas issue. I snapped at her at the Feminism 101 thread because she though it would be didactic to tell me I may have raped someone without knowing it. Having a history of surviving abuse myself (the details of which are not your fucking concern), pissed me off beyond belief, which lead me to tell her to fuck of. If anyone else implied the same again, they would get the same enraged response. And that was also 3 years ago.

It should be pointed out that even your own version of events makes you sound like a complete ass and leads me to believe that Barbelith would indeed be a better place without you. The fact that it was three years ago means nothing, especially in light of the fact that you just said that anyone suggesting the same again would get the same response. Not a very good defense, I'm afraid.

Alas was, as pointed out earlier, worth at least a dozen of any of us, and learning of your involvement in her decision to depart makes me deeply question the value of your presence here on Barbelith, something I've defended in the past.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:11 / 18.08.08
Look, chaps, this is pointless. Dead Megatron won't leave under his own steam, for a number of reasons. Randy wouldn't agree to ban him. And, you know, do you even have a method of interacting with this? There's no way in. There's no lever. What's the point, really?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:35 / 18.08.08
Randy wouldn't agree to ban him at this precise moment in time. But he's fast coming to the conclusion that any MFrietasing of threads in future *will* be grounds for a ban, even if only a temporary one.

If there's no way of locking people out of specific threads when they're hell-bent on wrecking them, then the only way in which we can try and ensure that this doesn't happen again in future is by putting a ban in place. There's nothing else. And, quite frankly, the lack of any great noise within this thread from the majority of people still active on the board can only be taken as either tacit approval of the original proposal or an inability to care either way.

So, yeah. Basically, DM, if you were to act that way again, as you've just said that you would, I'd have absolutely no hesitation agreeing with Haus about whether or not there's any place for you here.

It's about trying to make a broken and rapidly decaying board work. If you don't like it and you're not going to make any effort to change - and, after how ever many years it is that you've been here, that's something that you've pretty much demonstrated isn't a realistic option - then get off your fucking arse and set up an alternative that has the functionality that would make these proposed policy shifts unnecessary.

Change, adapt, or disappear. I'm really not bothered which you choose.
 
 
Tsuga
23:41 / 18.08.08
While I personally don't find enough in many of the recent posts to want to ban anyone immediately, the fact that many other posters that I respect are so frustrated leads me to feel more amenable to standing aside, for the most part. I understand that my personal feelings are related to my own high tolerances, and that others not sharing those doesn't make them intolerant. I don't believe that anyone would be banned for no reason, and I trust Randy and Haus to not take it lightly.

DM, from all I can tell, I don't think that your feelings of prejudice against your ethnicity or language are founded. Though I'm sure it doesn't feel good to be called an idiot and used as an example of bad posting repeatedly, I think you'd do better directly addressing the criticism rather than speculatively imbuing it with subtext.

P.S. Did anyone see that Tilda Swinton is in the new Coen Brothers movie?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:48 / 19.08.08
Dissenting Opinion:

I'm not sure there's any point in bringing this up now, but I would like to spend some of my hard-earned troll credits to point out that there are also a number of people who were good barbelith citizens* who have left, not because they were made to feel unsafe by offensive language, but because the culture of barbelith began to be centered on and stimulated by these perennial goddam troll scares. That is, these policy threads are what actually drives barbelith, and it's boring. Watching haus and E. Randy, of all people, spend these thousands of lines of text weeping and playing sad Russian music on their saxophones is tragicomical. We told you, several years ago, that this would happen if you kept taking yourselves so seriously. I mean, I adore you guys, I do, but why, guys? Y SO SRS? Is Dead Megatron annoying you again? Sure, he's a dick! Get happy! We have, in the past, made some progress in the science of mocking these people into acquiescence. It was really no kinder, but it was less bitter. The only one I couldn't stand was Paranoid Writer, who couldn't be mocked. Evil!

Is this even on-topic? I'm sure it will make absolutely no difference if you mop up the last few irritants. I'm sure it will make no difference if you delete out of hand whatever threads you find inadequate. Barbelith is known for two things: one, Grant Morrison is our bitch, and if you post here he might shoot some pool with you, and be really impressed when you beat him, and decide to be your mentor; two, it is very elitist and snobby and if you say the wrong thing you may end up losing a long and costly war to haus and his jackbooted minions. That's it! That's what you've got. I wish you would work with that, since you can't ban people anyway. As things stand, you all look sort of crazy.

Stop banning people, and stop trying so hard to control the direction and tone of this thing, and maybe it'll come back.



*Should I be providing names here? I'm hesitant to put these words in anyone's mouth, since I didn't circulate a petition or anything and I'm sure there are shades of motivation here, but I also feel a little like Bizzaro Joe McCarthy ("I have in my hand a list of people known to be GOOD AND RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS!"). Anyway, a lot of the names were Joycore partisans and sympathizers.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:50 / 19.08.08
Uh, I meant to hit preview. Fuck it, I'll let it stand.

Vladimir Baptiste was hard to mock as well. Good show there, lads!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:05 / 19.08.08
Well, if we can't ban people, the injunction not to ban people is a bit redundant. In my perfect world, it would be a simple matter of mocking the mockable and banning the unmockable but at the moment we have to jump through ludicrous hoops like this thread to establish whether we can even try to ban. Message board douchery is incompatible with before-fact accountability.

Basically, the Vladimir combination - intense irritant factor plus incredible self-importance - is our sour spot, here. The comedy value of DM, say, is limited because it's like watching someone run into a door repeatedly, but being unable to lift one's arms to open it.
 
 
Fist Fun
10:06 / 19.08.08
the culture of barbelith began to be centered on and stimulated by these perennial goddam troll scares

That's a great post Qalyn which puts it in to words better than I ever could.

I think there is a re-framing of trolling/stupidity to be anything that Barbelith (Haus, basically) disagrees with/dislikes. I'm don't think there is any value in that apart from appeasing some of the weaker human instincts. It certainly doesn't improve discussion.

I don't mean to pick on Haus in any way with that comment because he clearly is Barbelith and I love his posts and he seems a nice chap in real life. I hope that is taken as constructive feedback.

It is galling sometimes but the only thing you can do is keep creating and contributing to on-topic interesting threads and interact with everyone in a polite and respectful manner.

Somebody can have a different opinion to you and you can still respect that while disagreeing with it. But I suppose this is just the internet and it is fairly normal behaviour for internet messageboards.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:22 / 19.08.08
I think there is a re-framing of trolling/stupidity to be anything that Barbelith (Haus, basically) disagrees with/dislikes.

You think wrongly. Otherwise I would be the only person here, talking to a human skull.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
10:40 / 19.08.08
to be honest Haus, it's not that far from that here at present!

Qalyn, that almost sum's Barbelith up for me at present...how very depressing.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
10:41 / 19.08.08
shall i say at present again?!

No.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:58 / 19.08.08
Message board douchery is incompatible with before-fact accountability.

Who is the what? I can't parse this. I haven't had the benefit of your classical education.

it's like watching someone run into a door repeatedly, but being unable to lift one's arms to open it.

That is precisely how I feel about your lot when you post in this mode.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:56 / 19.08.08
Who is the what? I can't parse this. I haven't had the benefit of your classical education.

You can't deal effectively with douches if every stage of your douche-dealing has to go through a lengthy process of discussion before the stage can happen.

That is precisely how I feel about your lot when you post in this mode.

Nobody, believe me, is unhappier with their lot than I.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:10 / 19.08.08
Okay.
 
 
HCE
17:37 / 19.08.08
How about I just shiv everyone in the taint. Starting with you and ending with me.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:18 / 19.08.08
if you say the wrong thing you may end up losing a long and costly war to haus and his jackbooted minions

Jackbooted. Minion. YEAH!
 
  

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