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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

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15:51 / 02.08.08

PMs can be abused in a way that public posts can't. I refuse to get into those kinds of discussion via PM and always have, because I've seen that abuse happen on here.

Here, and nowhere else.

22:20 / 02.08.08

How do you mean, Randy?

23:34 / 02.08.08

Well, we've had a number of occasions in the past where PMs have been brought up publicly, their contents either posted in full or paraphrased. Two problems with that:

1) PMs are supposed to be private

2) There's absolutely no way of judging their veracity

Apart from that, there's also the issue of the PM system being abused by people who want to attack others, but haven't got the guts to do that in a public forum. With, typically, moderators being on the receiving end. I speak from experience here - it's not something that's happened to me recently, because I generally seem to get by unmolested (quite possibly because I avoid communication by PM as a rule), but it has happened.

I get enough of that shit at work. I don't enjoy work that much that I come to Barbelith for more of it.

The PM system is not in place for behind-the-scenes moderation. It never was. PMs are supposed to be used to ease the burden on the board where yr everday chat is concerned or to provide the ability to share confidential info that you'd otherwise be wary of putting out where everybody can see it - addresses and the like. But because Barbelith has this weird problem with moderation*, where people will absolutely refuse to accept that they've ever done anything wrong, causing threads to derail to the point of uselessness, they've been adopted as an alternative.

An alternative that doesn't work. Iirc, it was only recently that Mordant caught shit from some prick hereabouts for contacting him via PM to have a quiet, moderatorly word.

*And it *is* a Barbelith-specific problem, because I've never seen another board like this for dragging these fucking arguments out.

05:46 / 03.08.08

I've never understood the idea that unsolicited PMs are supposed to be private, especially abusive ones. If you want the other party to keep quiet about what you've sent them, maybe check first to make sure they're willing to do so.

11:47 / 03.08.08

I don't frequent many other boards, so I can't say anything with certainty, but I have seen some drawn-out, dead-horse-beating shit other places, only usually with worse spelling and diction. I know that in many other places people abuse others through PMs. I suppose what is different (and this may be what you're saying) is the fact that there's little ability of moderators to...moderate this shit. Obviously the big constant problem here.
I agree totally with HCE above.

15:30 / 04.08.08

I've seen similar things (PMs made public, in-thread conflict over one policy thing or another) on other boards - lately, I've seen traces on a couple of boards dedicated to boat building, so I don't think it has much to do with topics or kinds of personalities as much as it does with message boards in general.

On some of those, some conversations are rendered Swiss cheese by posts vanishing after a user is banned (there's a "clear posts" button you can click on while banning a user from phpBB's toolkit). There are responses to things that aren't there any more, references to messages made public, baffling jokes between Old Guard members over some new troll who's gone. You get used to it.

I try to conduct myself by Decadent Daytripper's guidelines from last page (more or less), but that's a personal decision, not a policy one. I don't think it should be a policy decision. I think offensive things should be flagged as they happen in the threads in which they happen. It's the back-and-forth afterward that makes for unpleasant reading. There should be a mechanism for moving the post-flag, non-topic discussion into Policy or elsewhere.

We don't have a "split thread" function. Alas. And we don't have a built-in "this is the last word on that subject in this discussion" silencer button, either, other than "lock topic," which doesn't help.

I can't think of human-built ways around that, but maybe someone else can.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:04 / 06.08.08

There are a couple of threads here, I think - use of Private Messages one of them - but, since Torquemada has focused my mind a bit, I'd just like to wrap this one up.

I think this thread functions as a warning of sorts. Hector and MFreitas, various actions of yours recently - starting with the unpleasantness in the Batman thread and leading on to the explosion of personal abuse (MFreitas) and the frivolous accusations of racism (Hector Lima) - have been, if acceptable for 2008-style Barbelith up to now, not acceptable as behaviour between actual human people. If unacceptable behaviour recurs, I will moot your banning and see what Randy and Tom think, which will help us to work out the flavour of the community to come. If you're not sure what constitutes crossing the line, I'd err on the side of caution, speaking purely personally. Buk, Dead Megatron and Colonel Kadmon aren't a million miles away either, right now, but bridges, crossing, coming.

22:35 / 06.08.08

I'm totally in favor of the insta-bannings, but can someone remind me what ban-worthy things DM's been doing lately?

Every time he gets brought up i/r/t this topic i think that it's a weird long-term grudge being acted upon, but perhaps i'm just not reading the right threads.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:20 / 06.08.08

After birthdaygate, bullygate and most recently Jokergate, PP, I rather see your interventions as a weird long-term grudge, or more precisely an increasingly poignant desire to win the day on the battlefield of Megatron, just once. Based on that, I'm afraid I don't have enough faith that any attempt from me to answer that question would be productive. Randy would have to agree to any banning proposal in any case, so the important question, really, is how he feels.

23:34 / 06.08.08

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Jokergate, in my mind, was a while back; I just wasn't sure how long questionable behavior would set one up within shoving distance of the ban-cliff.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel any need to "win the day" about anything. With the joker situation, I pointed out that you seemed to be putting words in DM's mouth, which was odd considering your feelings for textual-accuracy. Am i forgetting something?

I'm afraid I don't have enough faith that any attempt from me to answer that question would be productive.

My question was "can someone remind me what ban-worthy things DM's been doing lately?". It was an honest question, and I really don't get what this lack of faith has to do with it.

P.S. Wasn't birthdaygate and bullygate the same thing?

23:49 / 06.08.08

About Torquedrama, I'll not shed a tear for the person who wrote ...which would suggest that the white, middle-class are actually taking more responsiblilty than the lower-rated scum.
You know? Fuck that. Totally.

Regarding the "bored of", this person's name was "Josef Fritzel" as of May 27th, so they're still active. Honestly, maybe it would be a good idea to just flush. I'm not much of a bannish person myself, but instances like these two seem pretty clear.

I'm not familiar enough with the contributions of the posters that you're threatening, Haus, to really have a strong opinion; are you truly so bothered by them, and feel that they degrade the site so much that you would ban them, if there were no consequences besides them being gone? Buk's fisting thing pretty much put me on the side of not caring enough to say anything if he was booted. I'm not defending the others, but for them I'm not recalling anything that makes me feel I shouldn't at least ask. e.g. Hector's minstrel show, while ill-advised and somewhat offensive, seemed less a miscalculated jab than a damning reflection of Hector's inner dialogue. Like, maybe he should think about that, and try harder, but banning? Maybe I'm just not remembering some fecal posting from people, which is very possible.
I don't think there's a need for some big ban-thread meta-meta-minutiae disussion (with links!), I just feel I have to ask.

00:06 / 07.08.08

DM:

But I confess I did have some fun asking Haus "Y SO SRS?" on page 2, which I admit was not helpful to the quality of the board in general.

and haus:

I certainly can, but while I have some responsibility for Barbelith - and more on that later - it is not ethical for me to do so.

...

I would like to go back to Randy's point about he likelihood of me going anywhere, but it would take a while, so poss. later.

I realise my comments will carry little weight as Barbelith functions more like Big Brother than a message board for me but "Y SO SRS?" and the possibility of haus expanding on the above points have kept me checking the policy along with film & tv far with far more regularity.

00:36 / 07.08.08

I still don't get why I'm being accused of being aggressive. Honestly.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:24 / 07.08.08

P.S. Wasn't birthdaygate and bullygate the same thing?

Two different threads, in both of which you appeared and made misleading statements, mixed in with occasional ad hominems in an attempt to... well, I don't know. Protect the innocent? Serve the public trust? Uphold the law? Same thing happened with Jokergate - you turned up and made a claim, which we then had to push through the guts of the oyster to no great effect. It just strikes me as slightly odd that your appearances in Policy are so heavily keyed to a) me and b) DM. So, as I said, Randy is probably the person to talk to, since you have no history of misreading what he has said.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:26 / 07.08.08

Tsuga - it's fine to ask, but I think this thread covers off a lot of your questions, being as it is precisely about extending the franchise of what brings banning into play.

05:38 / 07.08.08

Haus, the claim that I turned up and made in "jokergate" was this:

I feel the need to mention that the following statement isn't really true, Haus.

"DM is now cobbling together bits of interviews promoting the film to construct a theory that the malign psychic force of the Joker murdered Heath Ledger by forcing him to take an overdose of sleeping pills"

I stand by my initial claim that this was a willful mischaracterization of what DM said. It simply isn't supported by the text. That's all I was saying.

I'm off to bed, I'll stop in tomorrow evening and see if this has been blown up into some ridiculous "-gate". Take care...

huckleberry glove soup

00:43 / 08.08.08

"Shut the fuck up, you hopeless dickwit. Your fanfiction is a waste even of the very small amount of time spent teaching you how to write.

You're right, this rejection of actual discussion in favour of disrespecting whatever one doesn't feel like reading is fun, droolcock."

New here, I've got no horse to back in any race, know little of people's personal history, but Mr. Haus, if you speak of lowering the standards of a community, the above quote is the most offensive, out of line, disgusting thing I've come across around here (not that I head through tons of threads, I stick to the temple and a few comic chats). A community based on the works of Grant Morrison sure doesn't seem to me like the place for such judgement, condemnation and disrespect. I agree the person that sparked your response didn't put a lot of thought or sensitivity into what he was saying, but yeah... that's about the lowest thing I've seen come from this community.

Nothing personal, just an outsider's version of the truth.

Take it for what it is.

Peace.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:10 / 08.08.08

You've shown me the light. Grant Morrison would be very disappointed.

Could someone else do this one? I'm a bit busy.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

05:41 / 08.08.08

Erm, isn't it "blah blah if someone says something that I consider negative and insulting towards either myself or the board then I will react to them in much the same manner and point out that they started it while making careful note of what was said by whom so that it can be brought back up later" or something like that? I don't think it would have taken you that long to write.

huckleberry glove soup

05:44 / 08.08.08

There was a point there, sir, and not the dissmissive spiteful one you attempted to reduce my post to. You seem to want to turn the community into an elitist, snub-hole. Perhaps that is what it is and always was. Doesn't seem to be very in line with any of the art that supposedly birthed this site.

You expect tolerance from others regarding your opinions yet your first instinct is to remove that which you find intolerable. I had expected this place to be full of open minded individuals but most of the action and conversation seems to take place around petty personal differences and infighting.

Many of the thoughts you choose to express are venomous and degrading to others. I'm sorry that that is the best you can muster because you are clearly an intelligent individual. Everybody gets out of whack sometimes but self evaluation is always an option.

God bless.

ONLY NICE THINGS

06:31 / 08.08.08

Where on Earth did I suggest that your point was snide or dismissive, old chum? are you reading this stuff at all?

ONLY NICE THINGS

06:42 / 08.08.08

Spiteful and dismissive, rather. Really, what? Pompous and ill-informed, absolutely, but spiteful and dismissive? Where are you getting this from?

08:10 / 08.08.08

New here, I've got no horse to back in any race, know little of people's personal history, but Mr. Haus, if you speak of lowering the standards of a community, the above quote is the most offensive, out of line, disgusting thing I've come across around here

I think you might benefit from reading this thread from the start CGS, it has been talked about. I suppose the important point is that Haus goes on to point out that those comments aren't particularly nice and were to be compared with the initial comments that inspired them.

A community based on the works of Grant Morrison sure doesn't seem to me like the place for such judgement, condemnation and disrespect.

It's a common mistake to make CGS but despite the name of the site this place is not based on the works of Grant Morrison. A lot of people here haven't read his work. We try to function according to what is good for the site members as oppose to what Gorgeous George would think about us.

Although, obviously, I'm up for a swingball rematch any time he's ready.

09:20 / 08.08.08

The problem with DM is that he's been here so long and has never managed to do anything that, strictly speaking, is a ban-worthy offense. He's just posted an awful lot of stuff that is awfully stupid, which in turn has definitely had a negative effect on the board. The question's been brought up before - should we ban on grounds of inability to raise yr game? - and I still don't know what the answer is. I mean, if you ban DM, then you also have to ban a couple of hundred other suits, just for the sake of consistency.

I think, at this precise moment in time, I'd be unlikely to agree to a ban. However, given that the walls are crumbling around us as we speak and it's blindingly obvious that there's no saving the place, I might just have a 'fuck it' moment and agree to any and all such requests as I make my own way out of the door.

Buk, I want to see gone. If there's anything holding that one back, it's that a considerable amount of time has passed since the fisting thread. I'd point out, though, that he has still to apologise for it to (what remains of) the community and has instead decided to go about it as though it never happened.

09:21 / 08.08.08

Oh, and cleaning glove soup? Have a think about making an effort to read around the damn board properly before jumping into discussions about issues like this.

lord nuneaton savage

22:19 / 08.08.08

I'm all for banning people, but only if they're allowed to give really dramatic pre-banning speeches. Kinda One-last-post-before-the-airlock-doors-open soliloquies full of regret, rage and pain, that inevitably end with them promising seven salty shades of REVEEENGE as their bodies drift into space's cold embrace and are turned to mulch under non-atmospheric conditions.

It would just give the whole process a bit more of a kick, y'know?

22:40 / 08.08.08

Oh, and cleaning glove soup? Have a think about making an effort to read around the damn board properly before jumping into discussions about issues like this.
Mr. Randy: I believe, sir, that this is an uncalled for statement, needless and insensitive.

God Bless.

02:52 / 11.08.08

As someone who's been on the receiving end of Haus's criticism for attempting to kill the conversation in a thread (see the Ratattoulie thread), I think it lends me a somewhat unique perspective here. I'm not going to speak to any conflicts that have been spawned elsewhere or in this thread, just to what seems to be the starting point for all this mess.

I think, overall, Haus is in the right here. I don't necessarily think that debating the worthiness of a conversation is always without merit, but one has to make an argument for that; which neither I in the Ratattoulie thread nor MFrietas in the Batman thread did.

Haus can be caustic, at times overly so, in my opinion. I've certainly had my share of throw-downs with him. Sometimes a bit too quick to pull the trigger, I think. But, primarily, he seems like a decent guy who doesn't want to see his longtime Home of Talkativeness go down the tubes.

I've been here quite a while, inbetween lurking and sporadic posting, and I enjoy the place. It challenges me to actually think, unlike the good majority of other forums out there. Over that time, I've come to (usually) view Haus as a sort of acid bath that one needs to pass through, coming out the other side either as a toasted lump or as someone a bit wiser for the experience.

Barring those times when he was wrong, of course. Usually when disagreeing with me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

14:48 / 11.08.08

It's not actually a unique perspective, it turns out. I had Haus on ignore for ages because he was being a jerk who was twisting my words before putting them back in my mouth. Then I started posting while mostly sober and coincidentally he stopped not being able to see the points I was making so clearly.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:32 / 11.08.08

I'd wager that's a common experience. I think I'd wager a lot.

02:55 / 18.08.08

it's been close to 20 days since i last posted here. i thought i needed to drop by and just say, out of respect for those who supported me, that i have voluntarily removed myself from posting on Barbelith.

not because i'm regretting what i've said, but because i don't agree with the latest developments on what has been called moderation, specially the unfair ban threat suggested here.

whenever i feel it's Ok to be back I will - if i don't happen to have been actually banned - but for the time being lurking occasionally will be fine for me.

while i'm missing participating on discussion of the latest comics and movies, i'm enjoying the focus shift to doing my stuff. thanks for your attention and see you later.

07:48 / 18.08.08

Hector, count me as someone who has had a great deal of sympathy for you and your efforts to defend your position in this matter. Damn shame you're taking a break. I think you're a decent bloke and your contributions have been no less worthy than anything else posted on a slow day on Barbelith. See you around again soon!

10:40 / 18.08.08

not because i'm regretting what i've said, but because i don't agree with the latest developments on what has been called moderation, specially the unfair ban threat suggested here.

yeah, the whole thing gives a feeling that some parties are actively trying to perform "euthanasia" on Barbelith, hence the threats ob ban the "people we don't like just because we don't like them" (regardless of any euphemisms used to cover such fact, such as "inability to raise yr game")

You'll be missed Hector. Send me a PM. Let's hang out or something.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:51 / 18.08.08

Traditonally, "I'm leaving this board" threads are started in the Conversation. If Hector had actually been banned, it would be appropriate to continue this discussion here. As it is, he's just off in a huff as an alternative to explaining why he keeps fibbing about what happened in the Batman thread or supporting his specious accusations of racism, which is not really a Policy matter.

In Policy terms, I think we are where we are - Torquemada has been banned, Hector and MFreitas have not, although if the specious accusations of racism or MFreitas' swearygeddon personal attack elsewhere had been directed at someone more vulnerable than I they might both have risked bannination on those grounds alone. This thread has been useful for me in helping to understand how we feel about these days of quiescence, however.

11:07 / 18.08.08

What about you explaining why you accused me of being aggressive on the B&R thread at some point, Haus?

Also, when a board has four self-identified Portuguese-speakers, and three of them have said they feel you are being racist towards them (and the fourth hasn't post in months), you should really start wondering what it is that you are doing wrong, don't you think?

Anyway, on a related topic, we need new movies to talk about.

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