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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

 
  

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Spaniel
15:45 / 21.07.08
Tom is on super-extended leave from Barbelith. That fact causes many of us to have lots and lots of problems with Tom's status as the banninator.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:53 / 21.07.08
Bans aren't decided by two people. We've still not got a formal model, but the last time this subject was brought up I suggested that a thread is started in Policy notifying the board of intention to ban - which would, as a rule, come as the result of a sequence of trollish or otherwise stupid behaviour - and the board is then given the opportunity to agree or disagree. The thread is then locked after a set amount of time - ideally, no longer than two days, and preferably less than that - and the votes, such as they are, weighed.

Then it's a matter of either Haus or myself emailing Tom, and Tom asking the other one of us whether or not we agree with the ban. So, y'know, the community is kept aware of what's ging on at all times and given the opportunity to have a say on the matter.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:57 / 21.07.08
Basically, Tom decided that he wanted to limit the final say to two people, because otherwise he'd get a shitload of different points of view emailed his way and have to try and pick the bits out of a discussion that he had no part in or understanding of.

Also: very few of the distributed powers here have performed brilliantly. Introducing more really isn't the way to go.
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:07 / 21.07.08
i agree with evil scientist when he says bans need to be decided by more than two people, but in the end, i guess its up to one person, tom coates, right...?

Sorry, should have been more clear there. I'm all for Randy and Haus dealing with the clear-cut airlock cases. It was the ones where individual posters were being slung for lowering the quality of discussion where I thought a few more voices might help.
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:09 / 21.07.08
Also: very few of the distributed powers here have performed brilliantly. Introducing more really isn't the way to go.

Point.
 
 
HCE
17:34 / 21.07.08
Why, wildstallion, what innocent and yet pertinent questions you ask.
 
 
Triplets
20:33 / 21.07.08
It's like he sees through us. Into us.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
02:30 / 22.07.08
Well done, that was such a biting and sarcastic comment, it really made me think you kept your head and were concise and to the point in that other thread. Anyone who called you self-defeating would be so off the mark.

you think i should have called Natural Way a 'dickwit' and opened a new witty thread about how great it is to post as if you're looking down on others? hm, maybe i'd be granted mod powers...

ps.: NW, we're cool.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:08 / 22.07.08
OK. so is there a reason I am missing not to work on Hector Lima being removed from Barbelith and given a chance to calm down? I don't want to have to deal with minstreling - I rather thought that that, at least, would be an approach to race that we wouldn't need a policy for - and I don't see on the available evidence a way to explain why that's not desirable. How much more time do we have to waste here?
 
 
HCE
05:57 / 22.07.08
Can Hector possibly take a brief, voluntary break? Just a few days to get some distance from whatever inspired the Ted Danson?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:58 / 22.07.08
That's up to Hector really.

given a chance to calm

Not wanting to be picky but I didn't think temporary locks were an available option.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:13 / 22.07.08
OK. so is there a reason I am missing not to work on Hector Lima being removed from Barbelith and given a chance to calm down?

Personally, I'd favour an attempt to explain the behaviour to avoid. I know it seems pointless, but if backed by the sanction of a (temporary) ban it might work. A formal warning is a good idea, I think, given the concentration of power. It may even do some good, even if not completely understood.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:03 / 22.07.08
I think in this case the behaviour to avoid is probably responding to somebody pointing out that you are telling huge fibs about what actually happened in another thread by pretending to be a beaten black slave in the Confederate South. If the original bone of contention is the rude dismissal of people trying to have a discussion about race, then that probably goes double.
 
 
Speedy
11:48 / 22.07.08
Personally speaking, I haven't seen any particularly ban-worthy behaviour on either Hector or MFreitas' part. The airy dismissal by MFreitas of the "race in Batman" discussion (which, incidentally, had been moribund for 4 days) was ill-advised, but Haus' initial response was, IMO, way over the top. Indeed, it was a pretty egregious example of the sort of "angry or abusive responses" over which Haus himself started this thread ...
There's been a few more unfortunate and/or provocative comments made by various parties in the argy-bargy since (and yes the "blackface act" was a bizarre misjudgment), and now it seems to be turning into a bit of a pile-on.
Don't really want to be the "can't we all just get along" guy (look what it got wildstallion), but can it be kept open as an option?
If we're voting, I don't support a ban or any further censure on HectorLima, MFreitas or Haus. Each of them has provided worthwhile contributions to the board up to now; this episode has seen an unfortunate escalation of emotion, hopefully temporary.
Regarding the "quality of discussion" on Barbelith, I can only comment on the Comics board, coz that's all I read here. The Grant Morrison's Batman topic has gone on for over 40 pages, with most of the discussion being nerdy plot/metacomic speculation - it's par for the course isn't it? It's a GM comic - he invites this kind of thing.
I come to Barbelith because the standard of discussion is high, about better quality comics, from contributors who are generally a better class of nerd! Don't know what one does to keep the standard of discussion "high", that being so subjective and all. My own tastes happen to include in this instance avid interest in the "magical negro" discussion, as well as interest in MFreitas' Black Glove speculation. I guess the only thing that keeps discussion going along is whether people are interested enough to continue to post ...
And speaking of which, I note Epic Scrabulous' comment above regarding new members not posting. Gotta say I'm a long-term reader, rare poster. (This thread must have just got up my goat.) I would posit the theory that the standard of discussion is so high here that it's a little daunting to just wade in ... Maybe that keeps out a lot of the thoughtless or trolly types, but also some of the more timid but potentially worthwhile members? Anyway, things usually balance out and add up to a generally enjoyable reading experience. Hope it can get back to that soon!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:01 / 22.07.08
It's easy to miss, but I had a very clear paedogogic intention, as is made clear here. The lesson was that it didn't feel nice if someone just heaved up and insulted you in the middle of a discussion. Since MFreitas had not said anything identifiable as discussion, I had to make the insult personal, but the principle was the same. The assumption that I somehow lost control of myself in a welter of rage seems a little far-fetched, honestly.
 
 
Speedy
13:14 / 22.07.08
So it was a tactical nuclear response?
 
 
HCE
13:16 / 22.07.08
the standard of discussion is so high here that it's a little daunting to just wade in

It's the old question again -- do we lower the standards in the hope that we'll get more content, because any content is better than none, or is it possible that lower standards will result in higher-quality posts, because it is only fear that keeps all the good-quality posts at bay?

The problem with even asking this question is that to some people, and I think these are the ones who react with distaste to derailings, speculation, one-line opening posts, lists, links, and so forth, the quality here so poor already that they don't know how much lower it can get.

Given what I will attempt to frame as neutrally as possible as the 'lack of other forms of censure,' the only consequence that anybody faces who posts poorly is that Haus (and with the absence of Mordant and Flyboy, I have not noticed* anybody else doing it methodically or energetically) will not be nice to you. Having been on the sharp end of it, I know it doesn't feel good, but what people seem never to want to acknowledge is that he doesn't actually throw a dart at the screen and suddenly attack whichever post it lands on. He does in fact respond to the content of what people post, and that in the context of posting history, such that if you've been making a solid effort and screw up, you won't get the same reaction as somebody who keeps doing the same thing repeatedly. If somebody wanted to make Barbelith quite a gentle place to post anything they liked, they could just put Haus on ignore and there would be very little even to make them uncomfortable, let alone to actually stop them.

*However, I do not read the whole board, and somebody could well be doing this without my having spotted it. I don't mean to dismiss anybody else's efforts.
 
 
HCE
13:20 / 22.07.08
If the issue is really that people just want to adjust the level of Haus' response, we could try asking to have the Invisbl CHaus Magyckian back. I personally would rather be yelled at than mocked. Anger seems a more respectful, less dismissive response than being treated like I'm too stupid to breathe, but to each hir own.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
13:39 / 22.07.08
let's put an end to this. i'm tired of going in circles and alienating everybody.

i want to apologize publically to everybody about the 'blackface act'. it was a poor attempt at showing how to use extreme irony to make a point [in that case, in response to Natural Way's tone in the post just above mine and also evoke the different perspectives of the racial discussion in the Batman comic thread]. Irony is great, but it can backfire and make us look like assholes.

i fell flat on my face and admit my attitude wasn't helpful to improve the policy discussion here. i sincerely hope everybody can accept my apologies - specially the black Barbelith members that might have felt offended with my display of weak comedy.

i'm not writing this because i'm afraid of getting banned. the thing is i don't like to try to be a smartass and offend people in ways that are uncalled for.

now: Haus, seriously, are you able to act like the stable and intelligent adult that you are, the one who contributes greatly to the discussions? can you realize you were not right in the way you replied to MFreitas and that threatening me with banning here is the quick but wrong way to end an issue you contributed yourself to get so much worse?

i'm not trying to use wit to work people's opinions here, i'm going straight to the point with a clear intent. Haus, can you admit you were wrong?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:47 / 22.07.08
Well, Hector, can you admit that when you said Freitas said something like 'we have been on this racial thing for a while, let me change the subject a bit', you were maliciously misrepresenting what MFreitas had said in an attempt to misrepresent me? Likewise the ongoing failure to note the clearly paedogogic intent of my post immediately after the one in which I mirorred his own style?

We can possibly go from there, but nothing here is making me think that the interests of Barbelith are served by having either of you here, which is not quite the same as believing that you should be banned. MFreitas' tiny triumph in c&ping the latest DC solicits (because CONTENT-FREE IS WHERE TO BE!) in this context is particularly unedifying.
 
 
Speedy
14:12 / 22.07.08
C'mon Haus, Hector copped to the offensiveness of his badly-chosen rhetorical device ...
 
 
Speedy
14:15 / 22.07.08
And good on MFreitas for returning to the board! OK, it WAS a pretty lame post, but from little things ...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:46 / 22.07.08
Absolutely, and good for him for doing so, although it makes me add a bit of a pinch of salt elsewhere to his suggestion that as a Brazilian his approach to issues of race will necesarily be more clear-eyed than a European.

However, that wasn't my point. My point was that the minstrel show came in response to The Natural Way pointing out that his representation of MFreitas' post to Comics was manifestly deceitful, a particularly unwise move since it is right there for us all to see. The effect was to distract attention from that manifest deceit. Either that deceit was intentional, which leads to one set of conclusions, or unintentional, which raises questions about the reliability of Hector as an interpreter of the meaning and tone of text which are pretty important to this thread. I'm just saying.
 
 
Tsuga
21:47 / 22.07.08
Could someone link to Hector's "minstrel" post? I can't seem to find it anywhere, and I'm curious as to what's being discussed.
I did, however, find what I think was the origin of this thread, so I'm understanding that a bit more. I just don't get into Comics that much.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:50 / 22.07.08
Minstrel.
 
 
Tsuga
01:14 / 23.07.08
over my very nose! Thanks, and yes, a really bad idea, that.
 
 
Fist Fun
19:43 / 23.07.08
You shouldn't ban anyone for expressing viewpoints you disagree with, a subjective view of worth or saying things in ways you don't like.

If you want discussion to take place in a different way then you should start and respond to threads in that way and you are, of course, free to use the ignore button on people you wish to ignore. Or go elsewhere.
 
 
dark horse
19:48 / 23.07.08
right on... wise words buk.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:37 / 23.07.08
Only he's completely wrong. We can, have and should ban people for saying certain things we don't agree with. There are limits. I absolutely do not think Hector or Freitas should be banned, but I think they both acted in an annoying, possibly offensive way, and they should cop to that, but not without examining exactly why others found their attitude annoying and offensive.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:10 / 23.07.08
The same could be said of Buk, of course. Fortunately, I have gone back to total despair, and have thus become Jenna Elfman.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:35 / 23.07.08
Buk, you're pretty fucking lucky that you weren't forced to go elsewhere a couple of months ago. I'm afraid that your opinion on any matter relating to board policy is null and void, thanks to your stunt in Conversation, and as far as I'm concerned you're one of the aforementioned idiots whose time on the board will come to a sharp, sudden halt if you try anything similar in future.
 
 
Tsuga
22:47 / 23.07.08
Thanks for that.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:10 / 23.07.08
That's okay. Any time.

I mean, if you can provide me with a single good reason why we should still be providing a space for some prick who starts a thread called 'Fisting black people', then spends the rest of the time before it's locked pretending that he doesn't know what he's done wrong, then sure, be my guest.

Similarly, if you can explain to me why we should give any value to anything that that person says in future, especially on issues of board policy, then again, I'm all ears.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:35 / 23.07.08
That, and I could do with a good laugh.
 
 
Tsuga
23:45 / 23.07.08
sorry, in making a vague referential joke I probably should have linked.
 
  

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