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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
17:27 / 19.07.08
I've resisted the banning of people for any reason other than harassment or extreme violations of our consensus on race, gender and sexuality for some time. However, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that Barbelith's value is primarily now as an archive of very interesting discussion and as a social community for a relatively small number of people. With this in mind, I am also starting to wonder whether the community and the quality of the discussion within that community need some form of protection. In particular, the species of contributor whose contributions are themselves worthless, but who is not sufficiently sensitive either to pick up on other people's viewpoints or to learn to shut the fuck up rather than trying to drive others away through sheer abusive persistence.

With this in mind, although I am not saying that banning is the only or necessary solution, in light of the impossibility of controlling such in the context of the current moderation system, I want to find a solution to behaviour like that of MFreitas and Hector Lima, primarily in the Morrison Batman threads but also elsewhere. The simple problem here is that being a simpleton is not really something we feel is more than a matter of personal conscience. However, the choking, toxic effect of these attempts to silence others through personal insult, combined with the relentless inanity of the subject matter (the endless fucking speculation and bollocks contributed to the Dark Knight is a scar on the conscience of Barbelith) is really getting me down.

I haven't abandoned the idea of extending the banning franchise to persistent and aggressive stupidity; effectively, to do what those who wanted to see Alex's Grandma or Glenn ejected have been arguing for - the good part about that being that I only have to convince E Randy Dupre of the wisdom of the action. It might also serve to put the Dead Megatrons of this world on some sort of notice. I confess that recent conversations have forced me to consider whether my approach to this entire business has been wrong. What I would like, however, is a community response to persistent and pernicious stupidity, attacks on decent content and attempts to drown us all in links and stupidity.

Do we have a community response here? Is this even an issue, or should we just let the fanfiction and the links to Ain't it Cool News inherit the Earth and have done?
 
 
Triplets
18:01 / 19.07.08
So, you're suggesting an aggressive policy of banning thickos and busters, yeah? I'm all for it.

I might be giving myself enough rope here, honestly, as my posts to the various Bleach and Bat-threads are, let's face it, from the outside, speculative fanfictive bollocks. I'm sure to people in those threads, though, that they're witty and charming (and that, if these people ever met me, they'd really like me and... etc).

So is this going to be applied to people who post on Barbelith with, to be charitable, the shotgun of stupidity? With a measurable level of crapness across the board? Or would a few specific instances of thickery be enough?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
18:02 / 19.07.08
to be frank i think both the racial issue discussion and your reaction have been much ado about nothing. but i'm worried with the two different weights some opinions have here, depending on who posts.

you made fun of the TDK nerdgasm [to which I admitedly was one of the prominent nerds orgasming], even opened a new thread to do so - discussion on 60's Batman is always good - and got the LULZ. fairly so.

but Freitas said something like 'we have been on this racial thing for a while, let me change the subject a bit', continued with a pertinent discussion to the thread and got called a dickwit and a droolcock by you. you over reacted and got backed up, while Freitas was heavily criticized. two sets of values?

and now you are threatening those who don't agree with the highbrow academic way you want the board to function in with banning?! WTF? uncalled for, there and now. ok, you've apologized, sort of, Freitas also has.

Haus, we ARE nerds and we CAN ALSO go deep in the discussions. in the case of a movie that has not come out yet, what can you do besides posting links and speculating?

Barbelith has been the best message board i've been in since 2001 because it can be several things. please don't force on others your vision on what the board should be.
 
 
Spaniel
18:09 / 19.07.08
Haus, I agree that we need to protect good content, but I feel that the Comics thread in question needn't have got into the state it's currently in. Basically I think your response to MFreitas was much more personal than it needed to be, and that that things went downhill from there, as they almost always do when the blood runs high. That said, I do understand your frustration. I was sorely tempted to respond in a similar fashion when I read Freitas's dismissive comment, but ultimately concluded that a good counter argument was a better way to go. So we're clear, had you not been quite so vigorous I would have picked up some of the slack, in an effort to try and support a culture of quality discussion.
 
 
Spaniel
18:13 / 19.07.08
Hector, please go back to the thread in question and read the words I took the time and trouble to write. Haus didn't get backed up because he is Haus and I worship him, he got backed up because he had a fucking good point.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:16 / 19.07.08
But, Lima, that's not what he said at all. He dismissed the importance and relevance of discussing race in relation to GM's Batman, and the fact that that has been spelled out to you numerous times now (and, y'know, you can go back and actually read his post if you need proof) and you're still framing the discussion the way you are means you're either being incredibly disingenuous, ignoring people's posts or you just have serious difficulty absorbing what others have written. Whatever. It makes it very hard and frustrating for others to communicate with you, and renders your contributions to this or any other thread ignorable at best and a pain in the arse at worse.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
18:30 / 19.07.08
thank you, m'lord. i'll go back to ma quarter now, sorry for botherin' you fine pipol. pliz don't use da whip on me, m'lord, pliz.
 
 
Spaniel
18:43 / 19.07.08
Oh dear.
 
 
Triplets
18:49 / 19.07.08
You can practically hear him opening the drawer and reaching for the password beater.

But it needn't come to that. At a quick glance (I'm off out) there's been an effort by Hec to acknowledge some of the points made by others in the George's Batman thread. That's a start, surely.
 
 
dark horse
19:02 / 19.07.08
i'm kind of new to these discussions and i don't know all the history like why west baltimore says "what is left of" barbelith..., but i do have one question..... in that comics thread somebody asked what the other moderators thought, but none of them have said anything.... are the moderators supposed to say what they think about this argument?!? i'm genuinely confused and dont know how things work here yet so it would be good to hear what's what!
 
 
Spaniel
19:09 / 19.07.08
Another moderator did chime in: Decresent Daytripper.

Moderators are tasked with helping to promote quality discussion, and generally making an effort to make the board all it can be. That may include helping to communicate / articulate issues pertaining to board policy.

Of course, not all moderators do any of that, and the ones that do (me included) don't tend to be entirely consistent.
 
 
dark horse
19:10 / 19.07.08
ok sorry i meant other than just those two guys... like i want to know what "Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!" or "fridgemagnet" think you know?
 
 
This Sunday
19:16 / 19.07.08
And, wildstallion, just so you know, most mod activities are done by vote, rather than through the decision of any single individual, to avoid developing little kings and queens of the forums. Even when (especially when?) hard actions are not being taken, discussion has long been the encouraged Barbelith MO.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:47 / 19.07.08
Part of the problem can be the spread out of timezones -- most of you guys are at least seven hours ahead of me, I think -- and whole sickbad discussions can happen before a given person even sees them.

In some situations, mods may not feel it wise to barrel into a thread when other mods are already active and dealing with a situation, unless called upon -- witness Boboss calling up Decadent -- because some attempt is being made to avoid dogpiling or diluting the message. Or they may not be reading a thread for other reasons (avoiding spoilers, for example).
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:56 / 19.07.08
I've said this before: I'd not have any problem whatsoever with extending the banning criteria to include consistent displays of braindead fuckwittery.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:07 / 19.07.08
I think, generally, the problem is defining what consistutes consistent -- as opposed to the more obvious racist/sexist/etc fuckwittery. Though, usually these cases make it blatantly obvious after a certain point and it's all case-by-case anyway, so I'm not sure if we need specific, set-in-stone rules about it, right?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:33 / 20.07.08
I probably should have said this before but my position is that while, for instance, extremely racist or sexist language is bannable, we should also attempt to control nuisance or disruptive posters. I'm almost tempted to say that the latter is in some sense more actionable than the former in the sense that someone with unpleasant views expressed politely can be interesting to iteract with - I'm thinking of thoughtful libertarians, for instance, which we generally dont see much of here. (Having said that, most of those with suspect views generally act badly, so it is a bit of a hypothetical.)

Anyhoo....my point is that posting on Barbelith should require some sort of broad requirement to behave. Obviously, we all get a bit agitated sometimes and an instaban would see most of us out of the door. However, I don't think it is unreasonable for Haus and Randy (since they have the power) to ask someone to regulate their behaviour in specific ways - for instance, to stop posting in a particular forum for a while, stop replying to a particular poster, stop spamming, insulting or retreading the same ground.

Anyone reasonable might see such a requirement as a little unfair, but would be able to accept the decision, I think, in the interests of board harmony. A person unwilling or unable to moderate their own behaviour is a candidate for banning, imo. Of course, one might want to allow more latitude for those who, or whatever reason, can't easily restrain themselves from repeated disruptive behaviour. But while compassion is a good thing, I think you have to set boundaries at some point too.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:26 / 20.07.08
Although I have great sympathy for Haus' exasperated attempts at bucking the trend of AICN-type fangasmic drivel so prevalent in the FTV and Comic fora, and as such would gladly entrust him and Randy with rapid-ban powers, I fail to see how, in these sunset times, this would make more people post more and better posts. We're seeing an increasing trickle of new members lately, but no concomitant increase in activity. In effect, members are not becoming posters. Instabans seem to me more likely to protect an already vigorous/rigorous debate than to stimulate new offerings to the community. And as there isn't much in the way of either vigorous or rigorous debate these days (with some notable exceptions) I'm unsure what new banning criteria would bring to the problem of how to keep the place buzzing with goodness rather than crapitude. Or even just buzzing.
 
 
sleazenation
16:16 / 20.07.08
Do you think poster who have contributed good content in the past but have since left the board be tempted to return and post their content here?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:49 / 20.07.08
Me?

I hope. But I don't have much faith.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:22 / 20.07.08
Can someone explain to me how the Batman "mock thread" is not an aggressive attempt to lower the quality of the board? It's a thread created and maintained by several mods to mock other longtime members who contribute to the board regularly. For all the AICN links and OMGBATMANISGONNABESOCOOL, there are any number of posts and topics by the same posters that are thoughtful, interesting, and push the discussion of various topics along.

I'm sure I'll be shouted down, but the high level of double standards here is what made me stop posting for long periods of times. It's quite alright for some people to post what are essentially insults wrapped in wit, but if you post a link to something for people to discuss, you haven't quite met the standards of Barbelith. I mean, it's quite obvious no one here are actually slobbering geeks about anything, right?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:20 / 20.07.08
Well, the main reason why it is not an attempt to lower the quality of the board, Keith, is because it is of significantly higher quality than the "Dark Knight" thread. Thank you for your thoughts, though.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
22:11 / 20.07.08
Is that sarcasm, Haus? It's not much of an argument, I should think. "My thread's better than your thread."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:11 / 21.07.08
I certainly wasn't trying to be sarcastic. The title of this thread is " Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith". The thread about Batman and Robin was not aggressive, barring Dead Megatron's attempts to rot it, nor did it lower the quality of Barbelith, because it was of significantly higher quality than the discussion about the Dark Knight and indeed the discussion going on elsewhere in Film, TV and Theatre. There was certainly a question over whether it was better suited to Conversation or F, TV & T, and it was moved a number of times.
 
 
Tsuga
01:47 / 21.07.08
I think one could argue the possibilities of "aggression", however subtle, existing in the origin of the B&R thread, but why would one bother, really?
I've got some reading to catch up on here, if I can, but I'm wondering about the question: Do we have a community response here?
Besides banning— which isn't now exactly a community response— what do you envisage as a community response, beyond what it is now, the use of words? Would you like more people in general to use their words in these cases, and is that what you are desiring? Or is there another response that you are alluding to? Or are you wondering aloud if people cared if you did ban for what you considered too ignorant posting?
Just wondering,
Tsuga

P.S. I'm serious. I'm just wondering. I'm really tired and going to bed, and maybe I didn't read the post clearly, but what are you getting at? I don't know if you're actually asking, or asking in the round if others will sit idly by while people have "little accidents" all over the board, or what.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:19 / 21.07.08
but if you post a link to something for people to discuss, you haven't quite met the standards of Barbelith.

Over in the desolation of the Lab we put together several threads which were essentially put there to try and quell the tide of threads which were nothing more than a single sentance and a link. In the introduction post I wrote:

My only suggestion would be that people don't just dump a link down and leave it. Tell us why you found this development interesting, perhaps speculate on how this development or new knowledge can be utilised, ask questions about the bits that you don't quite get.

I personally would be for a blanket locking of one-shot link-threads. The author of the thread could get in touch with the moderators and submit a revised version which has had a bit more thought put into it.

I'm definitely for a more aggressive stance towards empty-content posters, but with all due respect to Randy and Haus I do think bans (or whatever) of this nature need to be decided on by more than just two people. I'm not talking about a banning thread where everyone joins in but maybe a few more of the Elder Ones could be involved in the decision making process.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
10:02 / 21.07.08
on the very specific issue of one-shot link thread blight; would there be a benefit in aggregating those types of post in a Conversation forum Linkmachinego-type thread? That way the other threads aren't cluttered, lazy posts have a place to live, those people who occasionally prefer snacking on mental popcorn to gorging on the intellectual steak dinner are catered for and no-one gets banned.

Just a thought - I don't know if that type of posting is symptomatic of a type of poster who contributes little else of worth, in which case it could stand as a sort of Voigt-Kampf test prior to banning sanction. If that's the case then fair enough, I guess.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:23 / 21.07.08
I don't see that being a problem, although I'd still prefer those link posts to have a little more meat to them than the link itself. A paragraph describing the link and maybe saying why the poster thought it interesting isn't really asking a lot.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
12:13 / 21.07.08
thank you, m'lord. i'll go back to ma quarter now, sorry for botherin' you fine pipol. pliz don't use da whip on me, m'lord, pliz.

Well done, that was such a biting and sarcastic comment, it really made me think you kept your head and were concise and to the point in that other thread. Anyone who called you self-defeating would be so off the mark.

Haus, I'm not sure this is the time to be launching any new policy initiatives. You're looking at about 50 active posters and moderators who come across as sporadic lurkers rather than actively engaged in posting to barbelith. The schools break up for summer this week which indicates we're into the annual slow down of barbelith. On top of that I think we're beyond the point of discussion. Most of the people who are going to disagree with you with the power of logical reason behind them either don't care or aren't here so I'd just make a decision and go with it.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:07 / 21.07.08
I feel somewhat responsible for the issues which are being talked about in this thread.

I feel that my question (about racial connotations) was both on-topic and of value; a view that seems largely to be shared.

However, I could have presented it in a way that was less abrupt in the context of previous discussion, thus not leading to the "derailing" of the thread for those who did not wish to participate in the racial stereotype discussion, and allowing them to continue unhindered.

For that, I apologise.
 
 
Spaniel
13:44 / 21.07.08
As the discussion that followed was on-topic and for a time worthwhile I think it's fair to say you didn't derail anything. As I said in-thread, if others wished to continue a parallel discussion about the identity of the Black Glove, etc... then the thread could have accommodated.

It's not an either/or situation
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
14:23 / 21.07.08
Well, the main reason why it is not an attempt to lower the quality of the board, Keith, is because it is of significantly higher quality than the "Dark Knight" thread.

That's quite subjective.
 
 
grant
14:26 / 21.07.08
I rarely go into Comics threads simply because I'm not buying any new comics, so I missed this fun, but this policy: I personally would be for a blanket locking of one-shot link-threads seems good.

If the problem is one-shot, largely contentless posts, then generally we seem to challenge them in-thread; my feeling on these has usually been that I don't much care whether the poster has acknowledged the response or not - only if the problem recurs over the ensuing weeks.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:31 / 21.07.08
Haus, I'm not sure this is the time to be launching any new policy initiatives. You're looking at about 50 active posters and moderators who come across as sporadic lurkers rather than actively engaged in posting to barbelith. The schools break up for summer this week which indicates we're into the annual slow down of barbelith. On top of that I think we're beyond the point of discussion. Most of the people who are going to disagree with you with the power of logical reason behind them either don't care or aren't here so I'd just make a decision and go with it.

I'd like to think that we could maybe lure a few people back if we just pulled our collective finger out and managed to put something together using the limited tools at our disposal. I know that might be a little optimistic but I would dearly love this place to rev back into life again.

It'd be nice to think we could claw back up out of the plug-hole. Question is do enough people have the energy to do it?
 
 
dark horse
15:12 / 21.07.08
i agree with evil scientist when he says bans need to be decided by more than two people, but in the end, i guess its up to one person, tom coates, right...? none of us would be here in the first place if it wasn't for him, right? so if we can't all get along, which is sad imho but i guess maybe can't be helped, maybe tom should be the one to decide if someone needs to be banned? just my opinion!
 
  

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