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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

 
  

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Anna de Logardiere
07:56 / 21.08.08
This thread is irony slowly being made manifest.

What does that even mean?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:02 / 21.08.08
I think it means that this thread is itself becoming an aggressive attempt to lower the quality of etc, but I'm not wholly sure.

The broader issue with the "imagine this place is a bar/steam bath/jet engine" proposition is that it isnt, so these homespun comparisons are unlikely to work very well. For example, there isn't really an "outside". What would "taking it outside" mean? Abusive PMs? Abusive emails? Real-world fisticuffs? Generally, the Policy forum is the "outside" - it's where you take issues that are so pronounced that they detract from the quality of the discussion elsewhere, whether that problem is an involved inquiry that cannot easily be answered, an interpersonal dispute or an outbreak of bigotry.

In those terms, we're exactly where we need to be. However, to extend the metaphor, the unhappiness of the outside of the bar is that as the forces of light and darkness contend in the snow, punters whether specifically looking to get involved or just trying to find the toilet may feel moved to step in - often, this being a bar or a bar metaphor, without due preparation or consideration.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
10:08 / 21.08.08
Haus going back to your original post, specifically the first paragraph:

...However, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that Barbelith's value is primarily now as an archive of very interesting discussion and as a social community for a relatively small number of people. With this in mind, I am also starting to wonder whether the community and the quality of the discussion within that community need some form of protection. In particular, the species of contributor whose contributions are themselves worthless, but who is not sufficiently sensitive either to pick up on other people's viewpoints or to learn to shut the fuck up rather than trying to drive others away through sheer abusive persistence.

Although I completely agree with this depressing view of what Barbelith has become, I can't help feeling that the only way this place can move forward in a positive way is to address the question;

Why have a large majority of the decent suits stopped posting?

I know this question has been addressed before, but I'm really not sure if any lessons have been learned from the answers. Nothing that's been implemented anyway. Personally I feel that the only way this board is going to breath any life again is if membership is completely opened up. I'm fully aware that this may cause an influx of trolls, along with possibly a large amount of quality patrons, but at least the Policy forum would actually have something new to discuss!
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
10:36 / 21.08.08
Harrison, you're contributing to the wrong thread, the issue that you're discussing is currently under review in another Policy thread Handing Over- Admissions.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
10:39 / 21.08.08
I feel that they're part of the same thing really.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:58 / 21.08.08
Why have a large majority of the decent suits stopped posting?

As far as I am aware the main reasons differed from person to person. But some of the key factors were things like functionality of the site, the soul-sapping ban-threads, the people who provoked soul-sapping ban-threads and how we dealt with them prior to banning.

More recently people have been locking themselves because they weren't finding posting to the site to be a positive part of their lives anymore.

Ok, well let me buy you a pint and we can chat about that without the whole internet thing getting in the way. September the 4th?

I think you are being unfair if you think I have nothing of any value whatsoever to add and you know tact, dude.


Buk, unless you're going to alter how you present yourself and your posts on the site then I really can't see what having a pint with you is going to solve (especially as your bar metaphor involved punch-ups outside as a method of dealing with issues, I'm way too old for those kind of shenanigans). I'm unlikely to magically change my opinion of your online presence just because we've sipped an ale.

In my opinion the threads you have mentioned have managed to survive and prosper slightly in-spite of your contributions, not because of them.

That right there is the kind of thinking that feeds the "Haus and his gang are out to get me" feeling that some posters voice.

Well I can't help what people think, although it's the kind of thinking that winds me up because it effectively puts a hold on me (or anyone) saying anything without having to proof-read it for statements that might identify me as a mind-controlled minion of Haus.

I don't presume that everyone who speaks in defence of Buk-like posters are under vis direct authority. Perhaps people could do something similar.

The Other Road (the reasoned, polite, and neutral action): When a thread or post is of questionable quality, it's increasingly rare that the response is polite and/or serious. If a post is made and it doesn't meet with the nebulous quality of Barbelith, the quality-minded posters should be attempting to, without copious amounts of snark and wit, improve the quality of the lesser quality posters. When Haus says "This is teaching," I understand what he means but don't think he necessarily knows how to do it in a positive way.

Shouldn't there be some expectation for the creator of a thread to attempt to ensure that the thread is of a certain level of quality though? Why is the responsibility on other posters to act as teachers and thread-polishers? Sure, as a moderator I'll do what I can in the sterile stasis of Lab, but I'm a poster too and should I have to be on permanent patrol in every forum I visit? If I should then shouldn't every poster on this site take some personal responsibility to keep the standards above a certain level?

Ideally yes, doesn't happen though.
 
 
Fist Fun
12:42 / 21.08.08
The fear of newcomers (potential trolls! hurting us with words! we must set up a strict control policy) from the ageing, sterile community. The suspicion of free speech. The self-appointed re-educators with their absolute knowledge of correct thinking. The suspicion of democracy and hey, dictatorship has a lot going for it. The BACKLASH against tolerance and respect.

Ha ha. Only joking.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:00 / 21.08.08
Good Paranoidwriter impersonation.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
13:07 / 21.08.08
I used to know someone that sounded just like you Buk. His name was Big Steve, he used to go on and on about how we were all controlled and none of us realised it yet. Big Steve was always being told what he should and shouldn't be doing, but he wasn't as easy to push around as I was at the time. He was truly a voice for us all, we were being oppressed and subjected to rules & regulations that had nothing to do with how we wanted to live our lives. Big Steve was a maverick, well I thought so at the time... Big Steve wanted to be the Incredible Hulk, he was 7 and I was 5.
 
 
Fist Fun
13:25 / 21.08.08
But really Big Steve was just a child and eventually grew to realise that those rules were for his own good?

Damn. That is profound.

Maybe I'm like that child...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:46 / 21.08.08
Buk, if your irritation at Barbelith is starting to get the better of you I'd advise stepping away from the keyboard. Mostly because if you start poking what you perceive to be the pro-dictator, Haus controlled minions of the board, you might well cross over into nuisance territory. And thats going to be ugly for all involved. You might even become a focus for this very thread.

Instead, if you really want to interact with Barbelith as an ideological dissenter - and that can be a fruitful role, imo - why not try finding out what some of us think, debating and interacting, instead of spluttering at the caricatures you construct and mechanically reiterating your talking points.

PS I think it is fair to say that I am one of the more tolerant moderators around, and your name change doesn't make me want to extend a whole lot of charity toward you. Just fyi.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
13:52 / 21.08.08
But really Big Steve was just a child and eventually grew to realise that those rules were for his own good?


No that's irrelevant...just saying if I was 5, I'd probably listen to you.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:56 / 21.08.08
And more re Qalyn's points.....

I always saw mockery, as you describe it, as institutionalised bullying. Even ignoring that, Ive got to ask why mocking the trolls wasn't deployed as a solution despite what was going on? If it was because we needed everyone to pull together.....well, that was always part of the problem.

I sort of see what you mean, and I've got *some* sympathy for it as I tended to be more reluctant than most about heavy moderation, but one problem is that the people who didnt think we should be banning were also the people who werent really bothered by anything. Which sort of makes me think that what you really mean is *not* that the moderation was too heavy, but that people were upset in the first place. Thats a valid view, of course, but you should bear in mind that some people left because the moderation was too *lax*.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:59 / 21.08.08
yes, Buk's name change is the reminder that behind all this dialog, zhe doesn't mean any of it - zhe isn't taking anything on board, zhe's not accidentally misunderstanding people and constantly mistaking hyperbole for genuine intent, zhe's not repetitive by nature, zhe's not just missing or forgetting about the posts zhe doesn't respond to. Buk is a troll, and Buk is laughing at us every time we respond intelligently, or even when we get pissed and rude.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:04 / 21.08.08
Well, considering some of the trolls that Barbelith has graced this one is just rubbish. Are you telling me that even the trolls are dull here these days? Things are worse than I thought! A disgrace to it's kind!
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:09 / 21.08.08
I would prefer not to believe that at this point, but I realise that I am swimming against the current. If Buk decides to make a good faith attempt to interact even though he disagrees with (some of) us, then I'll feel good about extending some charity - hint: the name would be a good place to start.

However, if Buk insists on seeing us as jackbooted barbefascists, then it will again have been a triumph of hope over experience for me.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:22 / 21.08.08
Sorry. Actually I am pissing about today. Working from home in August! I'll stop.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:24 / 21.08.08
Fuck it. I'm going to email Tom with a request to ban him. I've suggested the possibility of this happening a number of times since the fisting thread and nobody's argued against it. The name change is a clear attempt to goad people into action like that, so hey. You wanted it? You got it.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:32 / 21.08.08
Um, look, wait. I'm really sorry. It was just a double entendre. No harm done. Maybe not be so serious. Ya know...

I can't believe you are going to kill my fictionsuit!
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:34 / 21.08.08
Chill out, buk, its only a ficsuit. Try and develop a sense of humour about it.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
15:30 / 21.08.08
Shouldn't there be some expectation for the creator of a thread to attempt to ensure that the thread is of a certain level of quality though? Why is the responsibility on other posters to act as teachers and thread-polishers? Sure, as a moderator I'll do what I can in the sterile stasis of Lab, but I'm a poster too and should I have to be on permanent patrol in every forum I visit? If I should then shouldn't every poster on this site take some personal responsibility to keep the standards above a certain level?

Yes, obviously, it should be the responsibility of every poster to post with quality in mind. But I think this thread is more about what to do when that isn't the case. "A certain level" is a bit of grey area. I probably have a different idea of that than others.

I shouldn't really even be talking in this thread, since I don't post very much anymore, and certainly not much of any substance when I do, except perhaps in Lost or BSG threads, hardly the threads where these types of altercations spring up (except Ana Lucia-gate, of course). I fully am aware that I'm probably not the ideal Barbelith poster in that regard, but there seems to be a large portion of posters like me. And a thread like this one gets my back up a bit, because I feel like someday, the lesser quality of my posts might be construed as aggressively lowering Barbelith's quality.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:31 / 21.08.08
Chill out, buk, its only a ficsuit. Try and develop a sense of humour about it.

Or at least get it dry cleaned. Those stains are...dubious.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:59 / 21.08.08
Um, look, wait. I'm really sorry. It was just a double entendre. No harm done. Maybe not be so serious. Ya know...

And this is just a message board, where words are all we've got to go on. As far as anything can hurt anyone in this place, words would be harmful agent no 1. Also, you're being less than honest, IMO, when you start off apologising and then close with "no harm done, don't be so serious" = "it's your all your fault for being a prickly bastard". Well done that. Now, go away. And stay gone, please.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
16:03 / 21.08.08
really, though, remember the fisting thread? it wasn't just that the thread got made - buk refused to admit that anything could be wrong with it - in fact, buk innocently claimed not to understand what people were saying at all, did not interact with complaints, and made it really, really OBVIOUS that zhe was pretending to be dumb and trying to see how far it could go.

which makes it very difficult to believe any other single part of the "I'm just dumb" act.

I admit, it does seem very difficult at times to believe that Buk is secretly a mastermind who is manipulating us all into rage without quite getting banned with an oscar-winning performance of Dumb Guy. but it's clear that some malicious intent is there, and at least some of the Dumb is not real.

even now, Buk has never responded to anyone's complaint about that thread having existed or tried to explain how it wasn't blatantly trolling. that I know of. am I wrong?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:43 / 21.08.08
You're not wrong.

Keith: the lesser quality of my posts might be construed as aggressively lowering Barbelith's quality.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. What kicked this off was MFreitas being a knobber and trying to shut down a discussion being held by a significant number of people, in favour of some fanboy wankery. I've nothing massively against fanboy wankery, but when it's used in order to push other people out of a thread? That's a different matter.

Fwiw, I can't recall ever seeing a post by you and thinking, that Keith, what a tit. I'd sooner this didn't become a thread of people seeking assurance that they're not on some kind of imaginary hit list, though. I think you'd know about it if you'd attempted to derail an ongoing discussion or done anything else purposefully add to the board's slow decline.
 
 
Saturn's nod
03:17 / 22.08.08
Just dropping in to indicate my support for the Haus-Randy admin regime. I'm glad some people still care enough to post here in Policy and continue the good fight; I'm preoccupied with off-board stuff at present, being a new parent, but I am lurking.
 
 
wicker woman
04:57 / 22.08.08
This thread is irony slowly being made manifest.

What does that even mean?


I think it means that this thread is itself becoming an aggressive attempt to lower the quality of etc, but I'm not wholly sure.


Yes.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:52 / 22.08.08
Just so everybody's aware, Tom's banned Buk. And I should have made it clear that Torquemada had been pushed off the cliff too, I think, so apologies for not pointing that out.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:56 / 22.08.08
Oh, and just to clear up any potential misunderstanding about how this works - not that there should be any misunderstanding, because it's been explained enough times, but that doesn't seem to have stopped people from missing it - when Tom is emailed with a ban request, that request includes links to the relevant threads.

So, for those like Hector giving it the "what would Tom Coates think?", making out like this is going on without his knowledge of the facts or that things would somehow be noticably different if he were active on the board, there y'go. You'll know what Tom thinks about ban requests that are forwarded to him by whether or not he then puts the ban into practice. So far, with the two or three that have been proposed in the year or so since this system was put into place, they have been.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:58 / 22.08.08
So it does actually work then! Thanks to messrs Dupre and Coates.
 
 
Char Aina
14:59 / 22.08.08
Do we know if he's reading the threads linked to? Has Tom offered any comment besides that implied by the banning?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:16 / 22.08.08
He said something in an email about a previous request - one that didn't include links - about not understanding the context of the request and needing more info. I'd say that's a sign that he's checking them out, yes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:59 / 22.08.08
Does that matter, though? I'm not sure why it would.
 
 
Char Aina
16:27 / 22.08.08
Well, if Tom's reading them, the banning process includes Tom. If he's not, it doesn't. If it does include Tom, we have three people putting a ban through. If it doesn't, we have two.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:01 / 22.08.08
We actually like to call ourselves The Triumvirate in the secret meetings. In this case, the situation was so clear-cut that it was done by the time I logged in to check my mail, so actually it was just two, however. Which is a bit of a change in structure, but not an unwelcome one.
 
  

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