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Dealing with aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith.

 
  

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dark horse
02:36 / 24.07.08
whoa, i had no idea about the "fisting black people" thing, that does sound kinda racist and obviously i don't agree with that!!! nothing wrong with fisting as long as its done between two consensual adults though

anyway i was just agreeing with when buk said that barbelith shouldn't ban anyone for expressing viewpoints people disagree with, obviously i don't mean racism but in general i think debating each other is what we're here to do, right?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:15 / 24.07.08
Randy, just for the record - and excuse my naivety for asking - you're not calling me or MFreitas 'idiots', are you?
 
 
HCE
05:36 / 24.07.08
Randy proposes a protocol for public notification of a "ban - which would, as a rule, come as the result of a sequence of trollish or otherwise stupid behaviour" and I think that's what he may be referring to when he later addresses buk thus: "you're one of the aforementioned idiots".

What part of what he wrote made you think he might possibly be addressing you, and you'd better check?

I mean, it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that he does think you're an idiot, and I am not privy to his inner thoughts, but I don't quite see what it is in his recent posts that made you think there was a chance he meant you.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:36 / 24.07.08
anyway i was just agreeing with when buk said that barbelith shouldn't ban anyone for expressing viewpoints people disagree with, obviously i don't mean racism but in general i think debating each other is what we're here to do, right?

Well, yes and no. Debating each other is what we do here but there are a number of viewpoints that people can express that get them airlocked. The obvious ones are racism, sexism, homophobia, holocaust denial, and the like. This thread is discussing is whether there should be consideration made to ban for "aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith".

Buk's fisting thread is a pretty good example of this. Glenn's repeated Last of the Summer Wine spamming (especially when it's done here in Policy). Both good examples of shit that's dragging this place down.

Fortunately, I have gone back to total despair, and have thus become Jenna Elfman.

Don't you be going "feral" on us. I have a tranq gun.
 
 
Speedy
08:37 / 24.07.08
No, we wouldn't want that. Although abusive name-calling is preferable to snide mockery!

The range of available responses for out-and-out policy violation and for persistent nuisance posting (as canvassed above) appears adequate. I appreciate that moderators and long-time members have a difficult task in dealing with this stuff, and no doubt get tired of revisiting the same old debates. So, good on you for keeping Barbelith a generally pleasant place to visit. (Bear in mind I only read the Comics forum!)

I'm just not sure that allowing what amounts to semi-officially-sanctioned bullying does anything to prevent "lowering the quality of what is left of Barbelith".

It certainly didn't help over in the "GM's Batman" thread. The "good" discussion is only now getting back on track. Who knows when posters will dare to return to the other "good" discussion.

Haus may have had a "clear pedagogic intent" for his post, but the device he chose for delivering his lesson only made things worse. I know it must be tedious to have to be the one to do it over and over again, but saying something like "MFreitas, please don't ..." might have made the point better, more clearly, and on that occasion might actually have had the purported desired effect.

Boring to write and boring to read though! Because in addition to Barbelith's pretty good signal-to-noise, I generally enjoy the wit and playfulness here. Even the sarcasm and other jolly japes. It's a tricky discourse for a reader to negotiate though, even when one has English as a first language. And obviously, to post is even more fraught!

The ugly stuff may discourage all the potential posters, not just the dicks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:04 / 24.07.08
Haus may have had a "clear pedagogic intent" for his post, but the device he chose for delivering his lesson only made things worse. I know it must be tedious to have to be the one to do it over and over again, but saying something like "MFreitas, please don't ..." might have made the point better, more clearly, and on that occasion might actually have had the purported desired effect.

With respect, if MFreitas was open to that sort of reasoning, he wouldn't have started out on that tack in the first place. Fanfiction about how much better things might have been if people had only done x is often beguiling, but rarely useful - consider Hector's current writing of fanfiction over what actually happened, earlier, with his happy gloss on what MFreitas actually said.

However, I wouldn't say that as a paedogogic exercise it was entirely unsuccessful. I learned a lot. That wasn't the intention, but it's all good, eh?
 
 
Speedy
00:52 / 25.07.08
Hence a kinder, gentler Haus?

I must admit the new Jenna Elfman avatar is mildly amusing. I guess its point is to pop up in sub-par threads as some kind of "Inanity Alert". Another community service!

Only guessing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:21 / 25.07.08


Why, thank you! Ever since Dharma and Greg, I've dreamed of being mildly amusing. But I think the function I primarily serve is to communicate an increasing derangement. But, you know, ask the writers! Who knows what those dudes are doing?
 
 
Speedy
05:46 / 25.07.08
Jenna, I always said you were bigger than that show. Your range! Your versatility!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:32 / 25.07.08
OT III, dude. Can't you just see it on her?
 
 
Saint Keggers
03:15 / 26.07.08
Isn't posting as J.E, especially in a forum such a this one, a prime example of what you're trying to deal with?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:44 / 26.07.08
One could point out that that is why it's called total despair, Keggers. Because, faced with one-sentence attempts to score points like that, or with edicts from people a quarter of whose total posts to Barbelith are to this thread telling us how we should all behave, or buk giving us lessons on appropriate behaviour, or indeed with Hector Lima's continuing failure to explain why he made the totally untrue claim Freitas said something like 'we have been on this racial thing for a while, let me change the subject a bit' in an attempt to derail this thread, then see total despair, above.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
07:52 / 26.07.08
Dude you need to listen to some Roxette, that always gets me through times of trouble.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
07:55 / 26.07.08
Also I think you've done down fanfiction writers everywhere.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:09 / 31.07.08
Still nothing from Hector, who has followed the standard course of pretending that there is no case to answer and going back to his usual habits in the expectation that Barbelith is utterly toothless. Meanwhile, back in the rich fields of Batman, Colonel Kadmon managed to rot his own threadrot by taking a shot at me and Finderwolf, five times winner of the Fotherington-Thomas award for niceness, and then having to work out whom he was actually trying to insult. As it turns out, it was Boboss, who has indeed been truly awful in his attempts to keep those who did not just want to post links and fanwank posting to Barbelith. The swine.

From the slough of despond, I reckon this has probably gone far enough. At this point, what I want to do is suggest banning some people for the good of the board and the rights of people to post half-decent content unmolested, and see how Randy and, eventually, Tom feel about it. It's a significant change to how we ban, but, you know, end times and all that. If it works out, they can apply to be let back in same as anyone else.
 
 
HCE
16:39 / 31.07.08
No, actually he didn't mean Boboss either. In response to being asked why he thinks Boboss might take a dig at him Kadmon says Oh, I don't really, I was actually thinking of someone else and got the names mixed up, so no offence, Boboss

Like the Black Glove, we have only hints as to the identity of this second person, but no solid ID yet.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:42 / 31.07.08
Holy Mistaken Identity, Batman! I think we've got this basic philosophical difference between a belief that what is written has some weight and a meaning that can be worked out with reference to the secret code book that is the spoken language, and a belief that holds these truths not to be evident, much less self-evident.
 
 
HCE
17:11 / 31.07.08
Ok, so for anybody who doesn't want to read the Batman thread, and phrasing this as neutrally as I can, here's the timeline:

1. There was a disagreement, and the last post dealing with that disagreement is here, where Boboss simply says "Yup." Not terribly exciting.

2. After that, Mr. Flunchy links to somebody's notes on Batman by way of introducing a new discussion. People discuss various things, for 26 posts.

3. In the 27th post-disagreement post, Colonel Kadmon discusses stuff, then adds I await the sarcastic dismissal of this post from Haus or Finderwolf. . He doesn't say why he awaits it, he doesn't quote either Haus or Finderwolf, and he doesn't link to anything either of them has posted, so who knows what that was all about.

4. Finderwolf takes issue, and Kadmon says he doesn't mean him, he means Boboss. Natural Way asks why Boboss, and Kadmon says he doesn't mean Boboss, either.

5. Haus takes issue. Kadmon says he told us so.

6. MFreitas responds, with lots of SHOUTING. At Haus, rather than Kadmon, bafflingly enough, but hopefully he will be along soon to explain why.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:25 / 31.07.08
Just to be clear, I was suggesting that when Kadmon said that he had meant not Finderwolf but Boboss, he was genuinely mistaken, whereas when he said that he had meant not Boboss but A N Other, he was dissembling, having realised the perilous nature of his footing. It may be elephants all the way down, though.
 
 
MFreitas
17:57 / 31.07.08
I responded especifically to this remark by Haus:

"(...)Boboss was lumped in because he failed to roll over in the face of MFreitas and Hector Lima's attempts to bully anyone who wanted a thread that did anything but fanwank(...)"
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:13 / 31.07.08
The only thing that Haus got wrong there was the bit about why Boboss was singled out. The rest of it, specifically the bit about your behaviour within that thread, is true.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
20:20 / 31.07.08
which is a shame.

Haus, I thought we were over this this one page ago. i'm not ignoring anything, i was done with this mess.

to address your last questions: has MFreitas misrepresented you? possibly, out of a simple poor choice of words. but never maliciously, it was your reaction that was uncalled for, aggressive and never pedagogical in any way. to tell the truth, it was very patronizing with MFreitas and myself to the point of almost being racist.

but i'm not pushing it as i don't think it's a big thing, i'm trying to be understandable as i think you didn't even realize that because of the different contexts we're in [the exact same thing i was trying to say about the 'magical negro' discussion at the Batman thread - nobody is better than anybody in their perceptions in this subject, we're just different].

but you see, i'm not pushing it as you are. i'm on my own just trying to contribute to the conversations as i'm used to. if it's not the way you want me to post, too bad. i'm here probably as long as you are and i've never seen myself in a situation like this, that i'm called upon the way i post.

like i said in the previous page, it's not always possible to provide a long, in-depth insight to a topic. take the conversation about the Batman comic, for example; the links and synopsis fuel the debate as they provide new materials for us to elaborate upon. and that is cool here, it always have been.

the nerdgasm over TDK, did it bother you? i mean, really? isn't there anything you like that makes you excited in anticipation? does our nerdgasm offend in any way? are we not high-brow, erudite enough to be worthy of being here? leave us be, man.

do you think we ate up too much board bandwidth with those single line posts? i frequently sign-off and take the chance to click the Adsense ads to help pay for the board's costs. maybe it helps Tom, i hope it does, if he's still the one who hosts Barbelith. by the way, is he OK with that kind of moderation, if that can be called this?

even so, is it worthy pushing MFreitas with increasingly nit-picky posts full of poisonous irony until he snapped at you? i don't think that helped prove value in your alledgedly self-righteous posture, you just made him look bad, as you did replying to him the way you did in the first place. there were dozens of ways to solve that situation, you chose the worst, and continue on and on and on to push us back to that.

i was advised by some wiser members not to fall in your rethorical trap. i don't know what point you are trying to prove with all this and the ban threats. i consider what you've been doing another type of trolling, close to harassment in some occasions. i won't be dragged into this.
 
 
HCE
21:33 / 31.07.08
Whether We've wasted way too much time discussing magical negroes and tragic mulatas and over-intellectualised mumbo-jumbo whatsoever can be accurately described as part of attempts to bully anyone who wanted a thread that did anything but fanwank is perhaps a matter of opinion, but the fact is that people were talking, then MFreitas came in with his nasty remark, and then people were talking again, albeit less intelligently, then Kadmon came in with his nasty remark. And yet both times people got mad at Haus as though he's some kind of ravening beast who leaps on people for no reason. MFreitas and Kadmon both had material in their posts, but they weren't content to post that material without adding in the nasty one-liners, and Haus is the bad guy?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:45 / 31.07.08
It's called tradition.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:51 / 31.07.08
And almost a racist, don't forget. Almost.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:53 / 31.07.08
Haus> If you want to go for it, go for it. With the exception of goddamn Batman threads, the place is now deader than it's ever been before.

If it doesn't fix it, it's not like it can do any more damage than leaving the board to rot will.
 
 
Tsuga
22:01 / 31.07.08
No, I'm sure that will fix it.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:05 / 31.07.08
The thread about Batman and Robin was not aggressive, barring Dead Megatron's attempts to rot it, nor did it lower the quality of Barbelith, because it was of significantly higher quality than the discussion about the Dark Knight and indeed the discussion going on elsewhere in Film, TV and Theatre.

Oh. My. God! Are you serious? Ok, let's dismember that statement.

The thread about Batman and Robin was not aggressive

Yes, it was. It was a thread that had no purpose whatsoever other than to mock other posters and their nerdiness about the Batman movie. It was not directly agressive, I'll grant you that. You didn't turn to a particular poster and started calling hir names or anything, but the whole attitute behind that was aggressive.

barring Dead Megatron's attempts to rot it

I didn't attempt to rot anything. I only amicably proposed the thread should be abandoned because honestly I could not see anything good coming out from it, other than some angry exchange of post between Haus and [insert random name]. I also said the thread was a bad idea (the reason for that is above) and the joke was not funny. Mind you, I did not say the joke was aggressive, self-righteous, arrogant, inappropriate, offensive, racist, or [insert greek word]phobic in any way, only that it was not funny, in the sense that Haus has made better jokes in the past. But, it seems his sarcasm-based sense of humor is very important for Haus' sense of identity as the Grand Poo-bah of Barbelith, because after which he proceeded to quote out of context every single mistake I've ever committed here - some of which were many years old and have been already apologized for by me - like I had just called him all sorts of names. After which, realizing nothing was to be gained with engaging Haus, since it seemed to me at the time that that was exactly what he wanted to do with that thread - to troll-bait me (or anyone else) into saying something stupid while attempting to be rational and polite, and then claim that he was the victim and was unwilling dragged into a discussion he never wanted to be in in the first place (classical Haus approach, I might add), I took the high road and did not return to the thread. How does that constitute and attempt to rot the thread, may I know? Can you even point as to where, exaclty, I aggresively tried to rot your joke-thread? (and the "yeah, yeah, yeah" post doesn't count, for that was not aggressive, it was dismissive, and rightly so at the time)

Plus, rotting what, exactly? Was there anything not already rotten in it to begin with? Any important debate on the historical importance of the Batman and Robin TV-series as a textbook display of camp that had a lasting multi-media negative impact on the way people saw the character? An informed discussion on future Nolan films, in comparison to Italian neo-realism or the French avant-garde, or Brazil's cinema novo? Anything at all?

nor did it lower the quality of Barbelith, because it was of significantly higher quality than the discussion about the Dark Knight and indeed the discussion going on elsewhere in Film, TV and Theatre.

Yes, it did lower the quality, for it was not of "significantly higher quality" than anything. At the very best, and this is a major compromise I'm making, it was of the same level of said discussion. Though, IMHO, it was much, much lower. And, apparently, intentionally ill-intended to boot, which is an accusation that cannot be made on the nerdgasm of other threads, at least.

Haus, my opinion is that you should voluntarily scramble you password and move to another board - or create your own* - since this place is clearly beneath you now and is clearly making you suffer. But it need to be a voluntary thing, for there is no reasonable motive to ban anyone. Go ahead, man! You'll feel a lot better after.


Now, seriously, Haus, you need to stop accusing other people of doing what you, and you alone, are actually doing, namely in this case, being aggressive, thread-rooting, a troll, and frustrated at not getting the feedback you think it would be the proper one. That, above all else, is what is ruining Barbelith.

*hausnation.org?
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:08 / 31.07.08
Well, maybe not above all else, but it's a factor
 
 
Tsuga
22:25 / 31.07.08
Sometimes reading this board is like seeing one person set a bear trap in the middle of a bare floor and watching another person repeatedly walk into it,
DO
LOOP UNTIL 0

DM, why did you give a shit about the Batman and Robin thread enough to say anything? Wasn't it obvious farce?
How can you rot farce? All you can do is throw gas on it.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:40 / 31.07.08
DM, why did you give a shit about the Batman and Robin thread enough to say anything?

I didn't give a shit about the Batman and Robin thread. I do give a shit about the rest of the board, hence my polite request to drop something that could only make matters worse.

But I'm no saint. I do get dragged into discussions I didn't plan to be in at first (usually by Haus, who then proceeds to state I somehow started it all).

But I confess I did have some fun asking Haus "Y SO SRS?" on page 2, which I admit was not helpful to the quality of the board in general. But was it aggressive rotting? Or improper behavior? I think not, but I can apologize for it, if you think it will help somehow...
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:27 / 31.07.08
And, in mentioning threads that are fundamentally flawed from the get-go, I think Haus made a mistake by thinking there are "aggressive attempts to lower the quality of what is left of Barbelith". There are not. There are instances in which discussion was on the same level than those commonly found in other places and fora of the internet, in the case of the Dark Knight thread based on nerdish fandom speculation, in other threads in which I do not participate based on reasons on which I cannot therefore make an informed comment at this point (it could be aggressiveness, I imagine, but to "attempt to lower the quality of discussion"?). What I can say is, in my experience, the aggressive attempt to lower the quality of discussion usually comes first from Haus, in response to what he considers not to be up to the lofty standards once held here, legend tells. Me? I do say stupid, incorrect things from time to time, obviously, or I would not irritate more than one person more than one time, but I never engage in conversation with the deliberate objective of antagonizing whoever nor to rot any discussion whatsoever. It may happen, but only after someone else -lately almost exclusively Haus - reply with aggressive, sarcastic, demeaning responses, usually filled with what I can only assume are "bad-first-impression-derived" misinterpretations of what I meant, after which I proceed to try and explain what I actually meant - usually too eagerly so, I'm afraid - and then everything goes downhill from there, for I end up being almost inevitably still misinterpreted. From my part there is no deliberate attempt, much less an aggressive one, to lower the quality of whatever the fuck we are uselessly working ourselves up over. That much I promise.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:24 / 01.08.08
Do we have a community response here?

I'd like to see the discussion get around to answering this, as I've yet to hear any good reasons not to go ahead and start cleaning up. I've been against banning in general in the past, but I'm forced to admit I want to see where this idea will take the board. I say go for it, guys.

Also: if everyone else is dreading Haus and DM doing their "man v.s. kangaroo" dance again, I feel we should all go ahead and pretend DM's above posts never happened (you too, Haus. I think a lot of us can probably guess what the gist of your reply would be anyway).
 
 
HCE
03:56 / 01.08.08
Did Breefield build an ignore switch that stays on permanently, instead of for just a week?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:56 / 01.08.08
Hector, you seem not to be able to follow quite a simple question. I didn't ask if MFreitas misrepresented me. To help out, I'll ask it again:

Well, Hector, can you admit that when you said Freitas said something like 'we have been on this racial thing for a while, let me change the subject a bit', you were maliciously misrepresenting what MFreitas had said in an attempt to misrepresent me? Likewise the ongoing failure to note the clearly paedogogic intent of my post immediately after the one in which I mirorred his own style?

Why, exactly, is this such a difficult question for you? If it helps, we can try to simplify it further. Why did you lie? And, if you are going to lie and to lie about things that can be so easily referenced, how should we feel about what you are saying more generally? Especially when they are, themselves, easily falsifiable statements such as:

even so, is it worthy pushing MFreitas with increasingly nit-picky posts full of poisonous irony until he snapped at you?

LOL, whut? And, of course, this racism thing. Can you substantiate that, although what racial group I am supposed to be prejudiced against I know not, since as far as I can tell MFreitas is from Portugal and you are from Brazil? Is it just speakers of Portuguese? Do I also hate Agolans in this model?
 
  

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