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Final Crisis

 
  

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Mario
09:37 / 27.10.08
Sinestro Corps has to be before this. After all, the Alpha Lanterns were CREATED during that conflict.

And I don't think Granny's part of the plot is a dangler... it was even addressed during this issue.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
16:24 / 27.10.08
some of the confusingness in #4 (for me) was was that I read it before I read Submit.

some of it's the small-scale confusion I've felt through the whole thing because Grant keeps using all these lesser-known superhero/villains that I'm supposed to be able to recognize because of their costume or whatever, and I'm just not that familiar with the DCU.

neither of those things are really bad things.

but some of the confusion is because it's hard to tell who people are, or what they are doing and where it's happening, and that's because of the art and storyboarding being subpar.

and some of it's because it's a giant story affecting all kinds of people all over the place in dozens of threads, and there's not enough room in the comic to deal with all of it. so you get one panel with renee montoya that doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the comic, or the reference to some assault on Bludhaven that maybe already failed or maybe hasn't happened yet or maybe there's two of them. or the good monitor guy trapped as a person, who didn't even show up in this issue (unless maybe he did and I couldn't tell who he was supposed to be.)

the writing just isn't flowing well for me. it's disjointed and fails to build and use momentum. pieces of it are missing because they've been subcontracted out to other comics, or maybe because they haven't been revealed yet, or maybe because they're just missing.

on the other hand, tying this issue together with Turpin's narrative and the bad guys praising Darkseid worked really well for me. there's lots of stuff that's really cool. but still, here and there, confusing.

it's possible that it's just confusing me and not other people, but I doubt it.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
16:27 / 27.10.08
also, I hate to be deconstructing fatbeard guy, but every time I see a host of bad guys on giant dogs holding a palace full of superheroes hostage, I think "why doesn't the flash or somebody head outside with a baseball bat and clear these losers out in less time than it took me to ask the question?"

a lot of superheroes and villans have been turned to Darkseid, and that's clearly a problem, but the images look like 95% of the bad guys are tough guys on dogs. which is, hey, awesome, but not something that stops the JLA in their tracks.
 
 
This Sunday
17:08 / 27.10.08
Innocent mind-controlled people on big giant dogs.

And you don't even know, person to person, how hard you can hit them, for instance. A hit that would stun Wonder Woman is going to be pretty horrible to a normal human being.

And the people on dogs are a symptom, not the disease. Hitting people here really isn't going to help any more than a case of flu is cured by blowing your nose periodically.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
17:26 / 27.10.08
No, dogs don't seem all that trouble but I am getting this weird vibe that anti-life (and the billion plus pedestrian combatants it has infected) is causing some problems. : )

The world has been basically taken down by some speakers and a viral commercial jingle.

FC overall has ebbed and flowed for me. I thought #2 pressed really all my buttons with it's uber-pop intro of the SYT. That's kind of what I was hoping for more of. More new age 08 super-dupers indulging in their fabulousness and saving the world. I want more New Gods, less of the standard old-guard heroes doing what heroes always do in these situations. I haven't hated FC and I vibe with it more on each re-read, but while there are some brilliant, exhilerating lines and moments sprinkled throughout, it's not quite the Post-Pop Odyssey I was craving... yet.

And yes, I was wondering where the hell Superman has been throughout this as well. I'd have thought he'd pop back into time right where Vampi-Bites had frozen time. Maybe it's a good thing though, with super hearing and all, I'd say it'd be pretty hard for Supes not to fall immediate prey to the ALE. Maybe pulling him out of time before the equation hits was more of a strategic move by the monitors than they let on. Or maybe this is the reality that unfolds while Supes is "gone" and towards the end of the series rusty-armored boy will pop in, save the day and spare the multiverse.

Rereading SB#1 last night and 1 line jumped out at me this time through. Billy says something about (paraphrasing) the thing most hated and despised will be the thing that saves them... that ultimate is ultimate evil... are we seeing Darkseid being positioned as the savior of all reality? If Mandrakk tries to do some monitorial house cleaning and wipe away the 52 (you know, typical crisisy behavior) maybe Darkseid steps up to save the day (if only to ensure he's got something to dominate in the future).
 
 
Mario
17:54 / 27.10.08
That could end up being really cool. Think about it:

"The Day Evil (that is, Darkseid) Won... by defeating Mandrakk."

It actually parallels the original Crisis, since Darkseid secretly aided the heroes there, by channeling something (possibly the Omega Effect) through Alexander Luthor, and helping to defeat the Ant-Monitor.
 
 
This Sunday
18:11 / 27.10.08
No Post-Pop! Yay, Psy-Pop-Ops!

Me and the gang, we all agree, we luv Big Brother!

A great quote over at the CBR forums, in response to suggestions that love will win the day against evil: "I don't think it was something as cliche as 'love.'" In some corners of the internet, Darkseid has already won.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
18:16 / 27.10.08
Didn't even think about how it all could play into The Day Evil Won... heh.

Re: Montoya,

Don't know who's keeping up with Revelations, but I think the panel with Waller this ish leads into that mini-series. Renee's scenes in FC:R #1 COULD take place after anti-life hits, I suppose. Basically she is sent to retreive the Spear of Destiny (pops up a lot in Spectre myth historically, spear that killed Jesus in christian myth).

Spoilery:





The balded cult that follows the Crime Bible use it to "unlock" the biblical Cain (who's been Vandal Savage all along... just with a 30,000 year senior moment, apparently). I thought this was a fantastic take on the character and kind of bumped him up about 13 notches in the evil villainy department. Cain's off to murder the Spectre for marking him (with a 90's Jae Lee-ish Helshock mask) lo those many years ago. If you can get through the 1/3 of the series consistently bogged down with Crispus Allen's self loathing rhetoric, it seems this mini has some major plot developements taking place.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
18:18 / 27.10.08
Love is so yesterday to these kids...
 
 
SiliconDream
18:24 / 27.10.08
a lot of superheroes and villans have been turned to Darkseid, and that's clearly a problem, but the images look like 95% of the bad guys are tough guys on dogs. which is, hey, awesome, but not something that stops the JLA in their tracks.

Sure, but the JLA big guns are already missing, dead, or turned to Darkseid. Thousands of tough guys on dogs are a significant threat to a JLA consisting mostly of Green Arrow and Black Canary.

Most of the other heavy-hitters still active are weakened--like the Marvel family--and/or tied up fighting zombified superpeople outside the Watchtowers. They just haven't gotten as much panel time because this issue focused on street-level characters.

Admittedly, it's still not entirely clear why the Flashes don't jaunt a month back in time and clear out Bludhaven in a nanosecond, but that's nothing new in a Flash story.
 
 
Spaniel
18:55 / 27.10.08
I didn't read submit. I don't feel that I have missed anything of any importance.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:19 / 27.10.08
cleaning glove soup [Spear of Destiny] (pops up a lot in Spectre myth historically, spear that killed Jesus in christian myth).

No, it didn't. KTHX.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
19:32 / 27.10.08
KWLCUHM.

Seems it was the spear that lanced a dead jesus.

Sorry for confusing my stories.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:23 / 27.10.08
If you want to disagree with someone's bible studies, make sure you do it to their living, breathing face. That's how we roll in South Guernsey. The bible stuff is basically utter, utter, cods anyway - Vandal Savage turning into Cain, for God's sake.

The double Bludhaven attack is, as My Mom says, a bit stuttery. Once you've got the hag of the idea that Count Vertigo and Alan Scott are not the same person, you work out that the timeline goes:

1) An issue of the Daily Planet is printed just before an assault on Bludhaven by Checkmate, led by Director Bones - this is the subject of the "Bludhaven, here we come" headline.

2) Director Bones leads an attack on Bludhaven, with conventional forces, Checkmate/Suicide Squad supers and Atomic Knights. For some reason, nobody else goes along, including Checkmate leaders Alan Scott and Mr. Terrific. The force is defeated.

3) Alan Scott, despite having the Ray as a super-fast messenger boy, waits for the Unternet to be activated before revealing the plan to make a last stand at Bludhaven,since that went so well last time.

4) Rather than going to Budhaven, Alan Scott stays at what I assume is Checkmate headquarters and defends it with Hawkwoman while the Omega Offensive is prepared. The Omega Offensive, I suspect, is a bus.

Despite all this, and the fact that the dupes of Darkseid in Rock of Ages had cooler headgear, this was a fun read. Nice sense of bigness. Possibly the message, ultimately, is that crossovers are big in inverse proportion to being any good. I mean, if you actually read Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was really pretty bobbins.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
20:48 / 27.10.08
I kind of dug it. Savage has been played as the world's first supervillain, if we go along with biblical myth, isn't that essentially what Cain is?

Father of murder, first human villain, cursed to restlessly walk the earth.

A connection between the Apokaliptian nature of the Crime Bible in there... Savage was Darkseid's first "student".

I think it gives Savage a more resonant, deeply rooted, aura of evil than "really old, mean cave man".

I even forgive the "I forgot who I was" angle. Who knows how the mind would react to thousands and thousands of years of life. I'm sure Cain/Savage/Whoever has been many many people in his time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:59 / 27.10.08
As I said, cods. Also, the whole mark of Cain thing - the mark was a symbol of mercy, not a symbol of vengeance, so it really should have been bestowed by Radiant (or, of course, her lovely sister Convecting).
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:04 / 27.10.08
The Omega Offensive, I suspect, is a bus.

Hey, if that happens and we get the Omega Bus, if you add in the one that the Tattooed Man Family drives in Submit, y'get what the kids these days are callin' a leitmotif. That's what you call book-learning. That's what you call educational comix. That's how you know it's a Grunt Myrrisyn comic.

With big angry Apokodogs in. Like, literal Hunger Dogs, y'dig?

Big Angry Dogs of Apokolips reminds me of our good boy Sturmer, late of this Fourth World, sniffer of Mageddon thingies.
 
 
huckleberry glove soup
21:12 / 27.10.08
I'm not sure I interpret the mark as a Mercy. It's basically saying "I cursed this guy to have nothing come of his labors (Libra to Vandal in ish 1 saying how civilization has been waiting for 50,000 years to be crushed beneath his heel) and wander around aimlessly forever, but he's afraid of being murdered so do me a favor... don't kill him. Let my original punishment stick."

I see that as not so much mercy but: my word is law... don't fuck with it! If I thought death was a suitable punishment, I'd kill him!

Maybe after all these years, Savage longs for death... a mercy he shall not be granted.

Difference of opinion, but I think it's brilliant. It's almost like the interpretation was always there in Savages story, begging to be used.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:15 / 27.10.08
Maybe after all these years, Savage longs for death... a mercy he shall not be granted.

...except that's an "ironic punishment" which has played and overplayed and overplayed with immortal characters (just, craving, death). I quite prefer Savage as someone who just wants power, endless power, and doesn't worry that much about dying. He wants to survive everyone, ever.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:33 / 27.10.08
The Bible, which I think is probably the brand book on this one, has Cain afraid that he will be killed during his enforced peregrinations, and the mark being protective. The idea that the mark was a mark of shame or similar is later, and often used to justify the mistreatment of black people (Flash fact). MInd you, who knows what that crazy dude God was up to.

Personally, I rather like Savage as the first supervillain, in the sense that an unlikely circumstance gave him superhuman powers which he then used to oppress other humans. There's also a whole tie-in with Immortal Man and Resurrection man, which is presumably being forgotten at this point. However, c'est la vie. It'll get overwritten at some point, anyway.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:49 / 27.10.08
There's also a whole tie-in with Immortal Man and Resurrection man, which is presumably being forgotten at this point.

One, or both of them was fairly important to DC One Million, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if Morrison dragged them out of the mothballs, seeing as how he keeps referencing his old apocalypses with this one.
 
 
SiliconDream
23:42 / 27.10.08
The idea that the mark was a mark of shame or similar is later, and often used to justify the mistreatment of black people (Flash fact).

Isn't that last one Noah's curse of Ham?

It's important to distinguish these various curses. Demand to be on top when banging Adam, you become an immortal mother of vampires. Kill your brother out of jealousy, you become an immortal supervillain caveman. See your dad drunk and naked, your youngest son becomes a black person.

Be prepared!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:17 / 28.10.08
Slavery is broadly justified as the curse of Ham. Black people not being allowed into the ministry or indeed into Heaven (or, if you are liberal, white people's Heaven) is the curse of Cain, although there is considerable overlap. There's a curse of Esau that gets dragooned in as well.

In these enlightened times, of course etc.
 
 
■
08:09 / 31.10.08
I like to think I'm reasonably up on my DCU history, but is there a good reason why the JLA (including J'onn) seem to be stuck in a bottle? Or is it just wonky art?
 
 
Automatic
09:25 / 31.10.08
I'd imagine it's supposed to be a minature model of the JLA in a sticky situation. Wouldn't be surprised to find it's referencing some old cover or something.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:27 / 31.10.08
Miniature evil JLAers don't seem out of the range of the Silver Age.

Picked up Rage of the Red Lanterns for some potentially unknown reason this week and was more or less "meh" about the whole thing. Green Lanterns debate the merits of executing war criminal Sinestro, Guardians extradite him to Korugar (presumably to make good with the government so they maybe halt the Anti-Corps sentiment). We get a Blue Lantern. The Alan Moore stories are mined yet again. It seems to me that Hal is possibly being recruited by the Blues, which could be interesting, but the Red Lanterns are blandly angry and gross (Red! Like Blood! Arrrgh!). Random aliens sicking up bile and blood in double page spreads is a little too Bosch for me this week.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
17:04 / 31.10.08
does it have anything whatsoever to do with Final Crisis, or is it just Sinestro Corps War pt. 2 with a Final Crisis cover?

I've heard that Rogue's Revenge was basically a kind of cool Flash comic with no good reason to be linked to FC other than Libra is in it a bit.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:25 / 31.10.08
That seems to be the general vibe for all the tie-in comics, isn't it? That they're related to other stories that are just happening around the same time? Rage doesn't even bother to address Hal being under investigation by Granny Alpha Lantern.
 
 
the Fool
10:52 / 01.11.08
*** SPOILERS just in case ***







Rage of the red lanterns only references FC in Hal mentioning the reported deicide of Orion near the start. Though, it seems to presents an issue with FC continuity with Hal being in custody for said deicide by the end of FC #4 and off in space fighting red lanterns and rescuing Sinestro here. I was sorta hoping the red lanterns might have something to with Darksied but that doesn't appear to be the case. Like Legion of three worlds, I can't really see the link to FC other than that reference I mentioned.

That aside, its pretty. I really like Shane Davies' art. And as part of the GL story line I enjoyed it.
 
 
Mario
11:29 / 01.11.08
Reports have a major link to the Red Lanterns story in FC #5.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:02 / 01.11.08
the exception I've seen would be Superman Beyond, which is sort of more about Final Crisis (in a Monitors and multiple universes kind of way) than Final Crisis is.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:07 / 03.11.08
Wait, wait, Ryan Sook is doing the art for Resist? And it features Snapper Carr and Mister Terrific? Um, without wanting to sound like a moron: sweet.

(What, I sound like a moron anyway. Let me enjoy the Sook.)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:54 / 05.11.08
Ryan Sook! I knew you wouldn't fail me.

It was fun in a dark and dystopian manner, quite a bit better than Submit even if Rucka was a little incoherent in places (how did the AIs do what they did?), I loved the Code Zoo for its obviousness, and Mister Terrific makes me happy.

On the down side: most random sex scene ever, and when the hell did Snapper Carr get conveniently-powered-by-finger-snapping teleportation powers?
 
 
SiliconDream
20:18 / 05.11.08
Snapper's had 'em since Invasion--he was one of the Blasters, the humans given metahuman powers by the Dominators (by means of shooting at them a lot.)

I dunno if he lost them later, though.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:26 / 05.11.08
Oh, the Dominators. They're such terrible Yellow Menace stereotype aliens but they sure did accidentally give a lot of people super-powers, didn't they?
 
  

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