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Final Crisis

 
  

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My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:19 / 14.12.08
so where'd the "Batman subverting the clone army" stuff happen then? is that happening over in GM's actual Batman title or somewhere else?

it's definitely a GM style crisis...the bad guys don't just have one unstoppable evil plan, they have, like, 8. evil montior treachery, anti-life computer virus, anti-life actual virus, anti-life helmets, command-d animal armies, weird space-time crunch...

and the good guys don't come up with A plan to save us all, they come up with lots simultaneously. green lanterns overcome Kraken, checkmate creates army of OMACs, superman is off in the multiverse doing...whatever it is, super monitor guy becomes whatever he just became, mister miracle delivers the face-painting circuit...

actually, it feels a lot like New X-Men, to me.
 
 
Benny the Ball
16:21 / 14.12.08
it's not happening yet. the clone batman army is mentioned at the end of batman 682, as is his incredibly will, so speculation suggests the army idea.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:38 / 31.12.08
Secret Files is out this week, and I only picked it up because multiple people -- and I think the solicits at one point -- had some of the art being provided by Quitely. No dice. We get a catch-up Len Wein Libra story which is at best a serviceable recap with sub-McKone artwork, followed by some JG Jones/Morrison sketch-pages. More for the glimpse of Doc Fate & Earth-20 than anything. Man, would I read a comic about those guys!

But, really, otherwise? I wouldn't have bought it.
 
 
Mario
23:36 / 31.12.08
By rights, that SF issue should be returnable.
 
 
Benny the Ball
01:06 / 01.01.09
Just filler because of the delay of the actual event then?

I'm going to go to the store this week, but just to pick up some more Showcase presents collected books - they're so much better value than most of the books out there at the moment.
 
 
Mario
01:33 / 01.01.09
There is a nice tidbit tucked away in the Sketchbook section about who (and what) Mandrakk is. But it's not worth $4.00.

[+] [-] Spoiler
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:31 / 01.01.09
At least we can look forward to the second part of SUPERMAN BEYOND this month...
 
 
Triplets
16:15 / 02.01.09
Mozzer quite likes the name "Dax", non?
 
 
FinderWolf
19:30 / 12.01.09
I have mostly become a lurker here... but one question: Months before issue 1, wasn't there a big tease/to-do about the identity of Libra? And now the Secret Files (which thank the stars above I just speed-read in the store) shows that he's just some regular dude/loser criminal who was a student of the first Starman?

(and I agree about the SF; it's a stretch to even put Morrison on the cover of the one-shot with a writing credit, given that it's just a few text pages he wrote and a few 'sketchbook' pages and notes...)

anyway, #6 is out this week - seems a bit fast on the heels of #5, but that's only because 5 was so delayed.

it does seem a bit odd to me that this thing with Batman's will subverting an army of clones happens off-panel between the 2-issue post-RIP arc and FC #5... but oh well.
 
 
Spaniel
19:53 / 12.01.09
Hi, finder, nice to hear from you. Hope to see you over at MO
 
 
Mark Parsons
19:08 / 13.01.09
The clone army thing happened in the final GM issue featuring The Lump. The clones start tearing their eyes out, etc. Granted this takes place in only one or two panels, but it does "happen" on camera, so to speak.
 
 
chairmanWOW
07:42 / 14.01.09
I think it's absurd to suggest that Kirby wouldn't have updated the concepts
And so, because he's dead, Grant Morrison gets to give his tired old concepts a makeover for him. How presumptuous. Sorry, say what you like, but to me, this whole affair reeks of arrogance and disrespect. GM isn't honouring this man's work, he's showing us all how it should have been done in the first place. It's like Miley Cyrus (ask your kids) releasing an album of Dinah Washington covers...with Timberland producing.

First up, let's dial it down with the c-word use, it's not so kosher on the Lith.
No peepee or pawpaw-related cusswords, only poo and pee words allowed. Got it.

Didn't Kirby give us Darkseid, Apokolips, Simyan, Kalibak, Kamandi, Ikaris, Makkari, Sersi, Attilan? I doubt he would have been scandalized by taking pre-existing names or phrases and messing with the spelling.
I doubt Grant Morrison's attempts at being "clever" or "hip" would've impressed Kirby either. Modernizing a concept by alluding to a pair of Atlanta-based "psychedelic glam-rappers"? I mean, really.

Indeed if Kirby was alive today, his work would probably look more like Final Crisis than 1960's Fantastic Four.
Yes, I'm sure. He'd be the 21st century's Grant Morrison, no doubt.
 
 
Spaniel
09:19 / 14.01.09
Yes. I don't know how any of you can sit still while such disrespectfulness and arrogance and presumption and "cleverness" and, ugh, HIPSTERISM is running rampant through the halls of DC.

Kirby would recognise the fool Morrison for what he is: a thief, a stealer of grand legacies.

What a poo-head!
 
 
Neon Snake
10:50 / 14.01.09
I certainly can't sit still while this happens.

Mind you, that might be because I need pee-pee.
 
 
Spaniel
11:15 / 14.01.09
Good to see that someone else is angry. Perhaps we should start our own League for Justice?
 
 
andrewdrilon
11:43 / 14.01.09
And so, because he's dead, Grant Morrison gets to give his tired old concepts a makeover for him. How presumptuous. Sorry, say what you like, but to me, this whole affair reeks of arrogance and disrespect. GM isn't honouring this man's work, he's showing us all how it should have been done in the first place.

What a silly statement. Is that what GM said? Can you read his mind, his intent? If you're going by that argument, then most of Marvel and DC should be accused of the same thing. If you don't like what's being done to the characters, that's fine. If you think the story's crap, that's also fine. You're entitled to your preference. But to say that the author is being presumptuous/arrogant/disrespectful by making changes to a corporate property that he was hired to deal with is pretty unfair, given that this has been how the industry has operated for a very long time.

Sure, we can go on about creators rights, etc., and some purists may say that only the creator has the right to deal with his or her own creations, but the fact is that DC owns these properties, and will do with them what they want. If there's anyone you should be irritated at, it's DC. And if you don't like this behavior, then you shouldn't be reading Marvel or DC comics, because this is what they've been doing forever. Heck, you shouldn't even be watching Disney. Disney's dead, too.

If you like your Kirby exactly the way it was, you can still pick up collections of the original material. Otherwise, if you expect Kirby creations perfectly preserved in your ongoing comics, you won't get that, whether Grant Morrison writes it or not. If you want someone to honor his works through comics then chances are no one's gonna be able to do it the way you want except you.

Me, I just want crazy action stories with fascinating characters backed against the wall. I want human struggle with outrageous concepts and beautiful imagery. That's the original appeal of Kirby to me, and Final Crisis, while not perfect, has been delivering that so far.
 
 
Spaniel
13:07 / 14.01.09
I'm not sure you need engage with that steaming pile of arse Andrew. Mockery really is the only necessary response.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:01 / 14.01.09
It's like Miley Cyrus (ask your kids) releasing an album of Dinah Washington covers...with Timberland producing.

What an odd argument -- aren't cover versions (and whole albums of covers) a grand old tradition in music? I may not care for such a rendition but reinterpreting classics is perfectly acceptable and happens in every conceivable medium (Movie remakes! Literary reinterpetations!).

Honestly, Morrison's take on Darkseid, for example, feels completely different to me from Kirby's, but neither version is "bad."

Regardless, the sixth issue's out today according to my LCS's website. While I'm in the middle of cutting back on my comics consumption greatly, I think I'll continue to pick it up (and the two or so tie-ins I've been reading) to see how it ends.
 
 
Spaniel
17:13 / 14.01.09
No, Papers, you should pick it up because you enjoy it!
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:31 / 14.01.09
It's totally awwwwesome.

No, really. This is one of my favorite Morrison stories evah.
 
 
andrewdrilon
17:51 / 14.01.09
I'm not sure you need engage with that steaming pile of arse Andrew. Mockery really is the only necessary response.

Sorry Boboss--just got pissed off by the baseless argument. I'm not witty or anything so I kinda went on auto.

Anyway, moving on from that...I see no one's linked to them yet, so here are the previews to Final Crisis #6 and Superman Beyond #2. The Superman preview in particular was really excellent.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:55 / 14.01.09
No, Papers, you should pick it up because you enjoy it!

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I wasn't enjoying it! But I can see how that might come through with my word choice. I'm really enjoying Final Crisis. Number Six is sweet-ass, I have to say. It reads, occasionally, like drunken candy corn but it's awesome. THE DESTINY OF RENEE MONTOYA alone was awesome. Never mind everything else, like casual rewriting of Legion of Super-Heroes continuity to link it further with the Oans.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
23:14 / 14.01.09
Wow.

Why isn't #7 here and in my hot hands. That was fantastic.

Well except for the colourist making Shiloh Norman white!!!

The only man who can walk into the horrible heart at the end of the world with a plan.
 
 
X-Himy
00:17 / 15.01.09
Yeah, it's sort of a shame that Shilo Norman is colored white. I mean, you might have been able to make an argument that it was just lightly colored, or reflecting light, except for the fact that he's standing right next to Mr Terrific. Seems like a rather large oversight?
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
04:53 / 15.01.09
Yeah, Superbat's coloring is a bit messed up, too.

As for the issue itself, it's probably the one I have least enjoyed. It probably has to do with the art changes (although the last few pages made me wish that Mahnke had drawn all of FC). Some pages looked ugly to me (especially pages 18/19, with Tatooed Man & Black Cannary vs Black Lightning & Green Arrow; and that double splash with *SPOILER* Batman Omega-Beamed to death leaves me unconvinced). The color, even ignoring the mentioned mistakes, looks rushed.

As for the story; are Darkseid and Libra already dead/defeated? It seems like their big evil stuff hasn't reached yet it's peak*, and now they are taken off the board? Although I liked that it was Luthor and Batman the ones to defeat them. Ah, well, there's still Mandrakk, unless he's defeated in Superman Beyond #2.

Talky Tawny vs. Kalibak was fun, and his soldiers' refusal to help him was great and logical.
The Miracle Machine looks a bit like the circuit Anthro copied off Metron's chest in #1; which makes a nice line from the start of technological advance (fire) to it's ultimate end (a machine that turns ideas into real objects).
The Batman/Darkseid standoff was kinda so-so, especially compared to the time he did the same in Rock of Ages (But I can see why this confrontation may be interesting to Morrison; is God vs man, power vs cleverness, the one who brings out darkness in the human heart vs the one who overcomes darkness).

Hope Batman being killed by a god of darkness is enough for the people who weren't happy with just an helicopter crash. I have some more thoughts on his death, maybe later, when my brain is working at %100.

I still have high hopes for #7: I wanna see Flashes and Atoms being clever and saving the multiverse, Biomacs evacuating and subsequently destroying sections, and Superman must do something big to compensate for his absentism from the main series. And maybe a bit more of Frankenstein, if Grant has a couple of panels to spare.

* (Yes, I know Darkseid has messed up the world(s), but at the same time, he's been, basically, chillin' in his chair. And Libra killing J'onn isn't enough, if he's a cosmic-level villain.)
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
06:24 / 15.01.09
I still can't help but wonder if Bruce won't end up something akin to a New God, even though that's been debunked a dozen times. The whole RIP/Last rites/Final Crisis thing ends with him just being the refined avatar of Batman-ness in much the same way that ASS ends with Supes being this primal amazing Superman for all times.

He seems to have figured out the Shiloh Norman trick by the end.

"Gotcha."
 
 
chairmanWOW
06:40 / 15.01.09
Sorry everyone, I apologize for having an opinion. Next time, I'll make sure to check what the general consensus is about a given topic and augment my point of view accordingly before I express it. After this though...

Heck, you shouldn't even be watching Disney. Disney's dead, too.
Yes, I'm waiting for some snivelling "visionary" like Zack Snyder to update Snow White into something more contemporary and relevant before I watch it. Hopefully, he'll work a dwarf leather bar into the mix. I think it's absurd to suggest that Disney wouldn't have updated his concepts.

I may not care for such a rendition but reinterpreting classics is perfectly acceptable and happens in every conceivable medium (Movie remakes! Literary reinterpretations!).
Let me just quietly sit here and watch Roland Emmerich's Godzilla while I savour that statement.

Honestly, Morrison's take on Darkseid, for example, feels completely different to me from Kirby's, but neither version is "bad."
Yes, he has leg braces now and wears chinos with a leather belt. What's wrong with me? Why don't I appreciate these things.

I want human struggle with outrageous concepts and beautiful imagery. That's the original appeal of Kirby to me, and Final Crisis, while not perfect, has been delivering that so far.
Heavens, you're easy to please. Outrageous concepts? Like those Starro helmets or that silly super-hero draft or that anti-life spam or Granny Goodness doing her best Cassandra Nova impression or that glowing mouse cursor? Beautiful imagery? Like Jones' rushed, wonky art? You're comparing this to Kirby?

I'm not sure you need engage with that steaming pile of arse Andrew. Mockery really is the only necessary response.
Oh Boboss, I remember when you first joined, when you were still a little nebbish, when you politely agreed with every post and needlessly complimented random posters. Now you're a big boy. Now I see manners have gone out the window.
 
 
Spaniel
07:53 / 15.01.09
I'd be really interested to see you dig up irrefutable evidence of my erstwhile nebbishness. You go get that, take it to Conversation, and we'll have a chat.

If you don't want me to take the piss out of you you then I advise you not to write the kind of unsubstantiable, woolly arse you wrote in your last post. The adjectives I used to describe your position were 99% yours, matey.
 
 
Spaniel
08:37 / 15.01.09
And talking of manners, doesn’t it strike you that turning up on a forum where Grant Morrison has many, many fans and making all sorts of broad brush, borderline insulting claims about his work isn’t going to play very well? You are, of course, free to hold whatever opinions you like, but surely you understand that they need to be argued rather than simply stated as self-evident truths, especially given that a large proportion of the locals are going to disagree with you on a pretty fundamental level. Given all that, isn’t the behaviour you’ve displayed kinda oafish? Gauche perhaps?

Unless your posting style is calculated to irritate which, seeing as you’ve been a member since 2004 and after all that time likely have a handle on this forum’s culture, I’m of the opinion that it probably is.
 
 
Spaniel
08:56 / 15.01.09
(Mind you, you don't appear to have noticed that the word c***t historically hasn't been too popular on Barbelith, so perhaps I'm being a little unfair. Again, feel free to disagree, feel free to claim censorship, or frailty on our behalves, but please do so in an appropriate thread, and not in snide asides. If you're at all interested in making friends and influencing people, having conversations rather than conflicts, that is. And if you're not, why are you here?)
 
 
Jackie Susann
10:01 / 15.01.09
Yes, I'm waiting for some snivelling "visionary" like Zack Snyder to update Snow White into something more contemporary and relevant before I watch it.

My new favourite poster.

Anyway, I thought this issue was totally awesome. I think the way structure kind of trumps plot here really works to give things an epic feel - like, nearly every page manages to be kind of fuck-yeah, without really needing time to slow down and build back up. It also allows (seemingly) totally random stuff, like letting Tawny fight Kalibak - surely not a highpoint of the anti-Darkseid resistance - for what, four pages?

I also like that just about every superhero has their own plan to save the world (Batman, the Flashes, Superman and the miracle machine, etc.) And I like that Grant just decided to drop what will surely be the best line in any comic in 09 in the first speech bubble.

Kind of a letdown as the end of Batman, though.
 
 
MFreitas
10:41 / 15.01.09
Now that you mention the constant art changes, I just analised issues 4 through 6 and Resist as well, so I now present a page by page "who done it" concerning the different artists on the series.

Probably surprisingly for many of you, the wildcard MARCO RUDY ended up doing a lot more than people thought, though in some of the pages he's clearly trying harder to emulate JG Jones' style. Anyway, Rudy's layouts are very very different from Jones' which is by far more imaginative and a better artist overal. Rudy's trademarks are a somewhat boring horizontal panel sequentials and the use of thick black borders.

FC 4
Jones (14) 1-2, 8-9, 17-19, 24-30
Pacheco/Merino (16) 3-7, 10-16, 20-23

FC: Resist
Ryan Sook (8) 1-8
Marco Rudy (21) 9-29

FC 5
Pacheco/Merino (9) 1-7, 14-15
J.G. Jones (12) 8-13, 18-21, 26-27
Marco Rudy (11) 14-15, 22-25, 28-32

FC 6
Pacheco/Merino (3) 1-3
Marco Rudy (13) 4-5, 15-25
J.G. Jones (13) 6-14, 26-29
Mankhe/Alamy (5) 30-34

It's curious if you look at each artist's page ammount, Jones wasn't further to blame for the addition of yet another artist. He did 14 pages in issue 4, 12 pages in 5 and 13 pages in issue 6. The biggest trouble was with Pacheco who ended up doing only some "impressive" 3 pages in issue 6.
 
 
Spaniel
10:43 / 15.01.09
Didn’t Batman get fried by the Omega Sanction (I assume capitals are necessary) in RoA? I’m not complaining, but it’s interesting and curious to see a writer wallow in and riff on their previous work quite so blatantly.

Personally I’m happy to see Batman die in a final confrontation with Darkseid, but I fully understand the complaints. I was actually quite moved and awed by Superman’s tearful rage.

That last sentence is possibly very embarrassing.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:55 / 15.01.09
Omega Sanction, Boboss, as in what Dark Side hit Mr Miracle with in Seven Soldiers.

"The Life Trap! Each existence more degraded than the last! More hopeless. More meaningless. Neverending."

"The fundamental force that is restriction."

"The Death that is Life!"



Coz, Batman, see, he can't escape from mental prisons, can he?

...shyeah...good one, Darkseid, you tool.
 
 
Neon Snake
10:57 / 15.01.09
And yeah, I feel you on Superman. Hellz yeah, he's TEH PISSED NOW!!111!!(etc)

The first panel of him destroying the city with his lasereyezrage was tiptop, that.
 
  

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