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Conflict and complaint thread

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:18 / 03.10.06
Dude, Mr CAPSLOCK is not our friend. I'm just sayin'.

From a place of love, obvs.
 
 
Evil Scientist
21:20 / 03.10.06
PW,

As far as I can see your last post was the following:

I think so.

I will not post for 24hrs starting from the time this post is posted.

I will then answer questions that are put to me, afresh, in this thread or another, should somebody wish to start one elsewhere.

Hopefully, if these questions are framed with respect; I will respond in kind. Promise. X

I LOVE BARBELITH and I Hate only HATE itself.

If You Let Me Give YOU more Love: I Will. Promise. X


Reasonable?

X


Which doesn't request anything specific be done whilst you took 24 hours off. I think people have agreed that starting a whole new thread is a bit of a waste of time when this thread exists.

Rather than trawling through them all can I suggest that you deal with them a few at a time? Otherwise I can see a risk that your offer may be mistaken as you taking the piss. Alternatively perhaps a few people can post their questions again?

Dude, I'd probably give the "I love you Barbelith" stuff a rest too. Once is nice. Saying it every time you post is, well, making me a little uncomfortable to be honest. Any chance you can tone it down a little and channel Paranoid Writer of a few months ago? You're not making it any easier for those of us arguing that you shouldn't go out the lock.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:38 / 03.10.06
A quick word to Ganesh. Yes, at the moment I am the only person on the board able to ban people. I'm not against the idea of opening that up more widely, but I'm also not entirely for it. I'll be honest with you, although I'm not always perfect in my use of the ban button, I have a sense that it would be used more widely if it was a more readily available option. I'm not sure how I feel about that, and so at the moment I've tended to not prioritise getting that functionality into the board.

But let me be clear about another area. I'm absolutely not saying that having a thread like this one constitutes too much discussion, I'm saying that having had a thread like this one, then alerting me to the problem and then having a week-long trial like we had a while back constituted too much discussion. This has nothing to do with my availability or not - if I'm e-mailed I am normally here within a day, pm's get to me normally within a couple of days tops. With Shadowsax, I'd been contacted because of his problematic behaviour, and at that point the board came to a conclusion about assembling some form of trial to last a week, the trial took a very long time and in the end came down to what seemed like the inevitable conclusion and he was banned. I said at the time that often in these circumstances the debate seems to be more for the community than it does for the person concerned who almost never (in fact I'd go so far as to say actually never) really comes back from such an event.

My point was relatively simple, at the point where it seems like there is a general move towards banning someone, I'm normally brought in. For the most part at that stage, unless it's a question of a specific issue of appropriate behaviour that we've not discussed before, realistically there are good odds that the person will be ejected.

It's not me that has the power to eject, it's you guys who make that decision and I come in at that point to basically make sure the community is serious, that there's some form of consensus, to check that the person concerned isn't being pressured out or cornered and to present them with a relatively clearly stated way that they can try and make amends. Normally people don't take this option, often it's past the stage where it might be possible for them to do so, but I normally try and present it anyway because it's important that people feel they've been treated fairly, it's important that the community feels they've been treated fairly, and it's important that the community can also come together generally behind the decision.

So to both you and Dix Neuf I say again, Barbelith is not toothless, Barbelith makes the decision to eject people. I'm just the person who comes in at the end and tries to draw people towards a consensus rather than divisive decision, gives the potential evictee a final chance to understand that this is serious and will probably happen and that if they want to back away from the statements they're making then they only have a few moments left to do so, and if they don't choose to do that, as per the community's request, I do my job and ban them from the board.

Perhaps the board would operate more effectively with bannings if it was a distributed moderation decision with less discussion in public. I don't know. I suspect - as I said earlier - that we'd have more bans. The only other thing I'd say is that opening up the functionality to a few more people doesn't make the point at which a ban is brought in any more arbitrary. The same questions about whether there's been 'way way too much discussion' or not would happen if moderators or the board as a whole voted on the issue.

Anyway, if people genuinely think I've acted inappropriately on this issue I'll back away from it. In the meantime, it's been 36 hours or so since paranoid writer was offered the opportunity to argue his case, and he hasn't chosen to do so. At the moment I'd argue that his time to make some kind of sensible, respectful response to the board is fast running out and that if he were not to do so quite rapidly, then we could take that as a statement that he's not prepared to do so.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:45 / 03.10.06
Can someone please tell me what I'm supposed to type.

You are breaking me.

I have almost run out of words.
 
 
Ganesh
22:52 / 03.10.06
I have no real problem with you being the only person able to ban, Tom - if the rest of us had recourse to some sort of suit-freezing/locking interim measure for those times when you're not easily accessible. It would give moderators some control over the type and volume of discussion occurring in the gap between concern being expressed over Poster X's behaviour and you being called upon to ban (or decide against banning) Poster X. If you seriously think we've previously generated "way way too much" discussion at these times, then you really ought to provide moderators with a means of quickly-but-reversibly taking the 'heat' out of the situation and enforcing a cooling-off period where required.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:55 / 03.10.06
PW- it's answering the questions. Please have a go.
 
 
Ganesh
22:57 / 03.10.06
I'll come back to some of your other points later, Tom, because I still think what you've said is problematic, and I think some of that's down to you not being completely up to speed with all the instances of almost-banning.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:58 / 03.10.06
Which questions, precisely?

Please, go back, look at them and ask me them again, afresh?

I AM BEGGING YOU NOW...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:59 / 03.10.06
I have a sense that it would be used more widely if it was a more readily available option. I'm not sure how I feel about that

With all due respect I'm not sure that's the decision of someone who doesn't generally moderate or interact with Barbelith.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:04 / 03.10.06
PW, a significant proportion of the users of the board feel that your behaviour recently has been rude and trollish - specifically I can mention the engaged and apparently unnecessary conflict with Haus which contains mostly assertions, angry comments and veiled assertions of racism or that you're being picked on. I'm sure other people could present more examples.

What we're asking you to do is to look through some of the things that you've said recently in this thread and elsewhere on the board and either (1) explain why you believe them to be true with solid and reasonable argument and listen seriously to other people's responses and reactions without getting defensive or (2) apologise and take responsibility for the things you've said in error or in the heat of the moment. You're trying to convince the board that it would be an error to ban you because even though you disagree with a lot of people, you're still able to argue reasonably and honourably about those disagreements. That doesn't mean just standing up and saying, "oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean it", it means actually demonstrating that you're prepared to make the effort to explain why you've acted the way you have.

You don't have to address everything, but it's pretty clear that there are some major issues you've been having with the board and which the board has had with you. If you don't know what they are, then that's a real problem and I'm sorry but that's a sufficiently good reason alone for banning you from the board. If you choose not to put in the effort of trying to convince people (and within a reasonable period of time) then again, I'm afraid that's a pretty good reason to ban you.

I don't think it would be reasonable to let this continue indefinitely. If you want to stay on the board I think you should be able to present a decent case as to why you should within a day. I don't think that's over the top.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:06 / 03.10.06
Dudes. Tom owns, runs and manages Barbelith. We may not be happy with the details, but we ought to be sensitive to the facts. I don't know how often banning would happen if, say, five moderator votes led to banning. However, a "freeze suit and alert Tom to issue" button might be a workable compromise, if:

a) It could be coded
b) One could veto it at least once without serious consequences, as a kind of "leave it a day" function.

I think we all agree that long, drawn-out arguments are not great for us, for Barbelith or for the happiness of the people we might be looking at and thinking of banning. If the freeze was used disturbingly often, one could increase the necessary moderator numbers. Personally, I'd actually want to limit the moderators who could apply it, but that is based on experience and caution. In any case, I really think this is a question for a new thread, or for the Wishlist. I agree with Ganesh that it is a conversation that could do with being highish up the list of allocations of moderator energy.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:08 / 03.10.06
Anna, that may very well be a very reasonable statement. Perhaps the question about whether a more open system would result in more bans and whether or not that's a good thing should be the basis for another thread? There are definitely times when I feel like the software, my workload and my absence act have become more and more constricting on the community's ability to self-regulate. I don't really know what to do about it though.
 
 
Ganesh
23:10 / 03.10.06
However, a "freeze suit and alert Tom to issue" button might be a workable compromise

To be frank, I think I'd actually be happier with this than with moderators having the power to ban permanently. We really do need to talk through the pros and cons of a suit-freeze option soonish, though, I think.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:12 / 03.10.06
Ganesh - I'm interested in what the consequences would be in temporarily freezing someone's account, and specifically what the difference is from a ban. It seems like it would either be a time-limited thing or an on/off kind of thing. In the former case, I can't help thinking they'd just return a couple of days later steamingly furious. In the latter case it's, well, basically a ban.

I'm not anti the idea though. I really need to work out how to prioritise this stuff.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:14 / 03.10.06
I was showing you how some of you treat others that are different.

I was leading by example.

I was trying to bring Love back.

You have killed this incarnation of paranoidwriter.

The shame is now on you.

What have I done to help people around here? What have I contributed?

Hate?

You decide...

I ask questions. I do not Brand you; you Brand yourselves.

Your pain cuts others too.

Shame - on - you.

Ban me. I couldn't give a toss anymore.
 
 
Ganesh
23:16 / 03.10.06
There are definitely times when I feel like the software, my workload and my absence act have become more and more constricting on the community's ability to self-regulate. I don't really know what to do about it though.

Provide us with a reversible means of taking the heat out of such situations: a temporary 'sin bin', 'naughty step' or 'time out room' aimed at defusing aggro at an early stage and facilitating rehabilitation rather than a permanent expulsion from the community.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:17 / 03.10.06
Right then. I think that's clear enough.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:17 / 03.10.06
I think the point would be that it would turn your disengagement into a strength, Tom - it would make it possible to get you on the board at some point in the hopefully not too distant future after the freeze, to look at where we were and establish without the contribution of the affected party to the discussion on the thread whether to ban, and if not what guidelines might be provided to discourage future freezing and bannination. So, for example, we might unfreeze a suit on condition that they did not post about homosexuality or start to follow around a particular member - which would make a refreeze and a banning simpler afterwards. In administrative terms, it would add complexity, but it might reduce on-board acrimony.

On the issue at hand - I could ask PW some questions, but I honestly don't know if that would be useful.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:22 / 03.10.06
If we can freeze suits then we have the practical if not final ability to ban. At the moment we don't have anything of that sort.

Tom, do you not see the inherent contradiction between these constant claims that the moderators basically have fundamental control of Barbelith when they can't actually remove people from the space. That does not equate to control. We have to actively ask you, someone who does not effect any other type of social control over this space for the ultimate social control. You appear to regard this as a design function but for people who consistently look after the interaction here it's not about design, it's purely about protecting the community in an extremely important way. We lose that ability to protect and influence Barbelith when arguments go on for days. If you must have control so be it but if we can freeze suits and alert you then you retain that and we have an effective method through which we can suspend people before it goes shebang malarkey.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:24 / 03.10.06
Don't suppose anyone fancies moving this to the wishlist thread?
 
 
Ganesh
23:26 / 03.10.06
Ganesh - I'm interested in what the consequences would be in temporarily freezing someone's account, and specifically what the difference is from a ban. It seems like it would either be a time-limited thing or an on/off kind of thing. In the former case, I can't help thinking they'd just return a couple of days later steamingly furious. In the latter case it's, well, basically a ban.

We probably need a separate thread on this, but a suit-freeze would be temporary, reversible and time-limited. It would serve the immediate purpose of removing problem posters from a conflict situation and allowing a period of cooling-off for them and for others, thus avoiding the escalating resentment that typically ensues when the only options are Put Up With It or Ask Tom To Ban.

I don't think people necessarily would return furious; that assumes that the mental state at the time of posting is constant. Situation (backed into a corner), alcohol and, in some cases, fluctuating mood states as a result of illness might well play a part in an increasingly angry exchange. In the past, there have been cases of people reflecting on and apologising for bad behaviour, and I think a period of enforced non-posting enables this by stopping them digging themselves in deeper. It also 'earths' some of the community's weariness and frustration at interminable circular arguments.

Paranoid Writer is demonstrating some of these points for us right this minute.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
23:28 / 03.10.06
This reminds me of the last episode of Kids in the Hall.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:30 / 03.10.06
The model I always wanted to build, and perhaps actually could do now was one where there were two forms of users - in some form 'Junior' and 'Normal'. When people joined the board they were junior and had certain limitations, for example on posts per day or not able to post in the Policy until such a point where they received some kind of gradation to normal user (my original thought was a time limit and number of decent posts - something like one month and twenty posts or something).

This would make it quite simple for moderators to bounce someone back to this earlier user level while also restricting their ability to cause too much trouble if they didn't like it.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:33 / 03.10.06
Anna - I didn't say that the moderators have control of Barbelith, but that Barbelith had control of Barbelith. The moderators are not supposed to be in control of Barbelith, they're supposed to be helping Barbelith.

Barbelith itself is not toothless. The moderators can do a whole bunch of stuff, but at the moment I think it should require more than the moderators to ban someone from the board. As I've said, it's not me who bans someone, it's me who pushes the final button when there is general board consensus that it's the right thing to do.

Having said that, a freeze - or a bump down - is a more interesting and practical possibility, which I'll definitely consider.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:35 / 03.10.06
If doable, that could have a positive effect, at least on Policy. I'm with G on the possible benefits of a cool-down - in fact, if PW wanted to take up his or ES' suggestion and put his password in trust with them for a while, I'm sure we would happily go about our business uninterrupted during that "cooling-off" period - which would be, actually, like ostracism in the classical sense, as I've recently had cause to talk about in Policy - a removal from the boundaries of the state (Barbelith), with a fixed term and no suggestion of judgement - just something decided on for the good of the board...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:37 / 03.10.06
You're talking about a Barbelith you never created.
 
 
Ganesh
23:37 / 03.10.06
Tom, I think the Junior/Normal model would foster resentment while doing very little to address the problems exemplified by previous trolls. Someone somewhere would be forced into deciding what constituted "decent" posts and contributions, which would potentially be extremely time-consuming, and wouldn't stop the Temple, say, or the Head Shop being trashed by an angrily imploding poster unable to post in the Policy.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:41 / 03.10.06
As I've said, it's not me who bans someone, it's me who pushes the final button

In pushing that button alone you are the person who bans someone. Ultimately your decision is not the decision made by us but by you in who you respond to. The banning is precisely the action of pushing the button and you, in saying the above, are in addition claiming that your view is basically objective rather than subjective, which just doesn't wash for me since you clearly interact more with long term moderators than other members of Barbelith.
 
 
Ganesh
23:47 / 03.10.06
As I've said, it's not me who bans someone, it's me who pushes the final button when there is general board consensus that it's the right thing to do.

How do you personally establish "general board consensus" as opposed to the opinions of a vocal minority and/or those individuals who PM or email you? I ask this because you seem slightly dismissive of the likes of the ShadowSax thread, which was a very real attempt to solicit a wider community consensus.
 
 
Ganesh
23:51 / 03.10.06
Also, no-one seems, at present, to be asking for moderators to be given the power to ban someone permanently. So far, I think we're reasonably united in requesting the more temporary suit-freeze option, so it'd be good if we could uncouple that from the spectre of moderator-enacted banning.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:53 / 04.10.06
The problem with moderators being given any real powers though (I'd agree that at the moment they have so little as makes no difference,) is that, pretty much automatically, all the material to do with Barb-elites, teh mods as Big Brother, etc, would suddenly become a legitimate perception of the reality of the board, however unreasonable, in a way that it just isn't at the moment. As things stand, accusing those in positions of (non)authority here of 'Illuminati'-style behaviour is on a par with all those ideas to do with the British Royal Family and the lizards - it's not demonstrably untrue, but on the balance of probability, you'd have to assume ...

On the other hand, the situation if, as a moderator, one could, as part of a quorum, actually do anything about anything would become more analagous to, I don't know, the notion that the CIA had something to do JFK's demise. Ie, still a bit out there, but far more credible. Whatever the facts of the matter actually were.

Quite apart from anything else, such disagreements as there are at the moment (often bloody, with 'so-and-so')invariably involve one or more of the existing moderators at some stage, usually early on. Would it then be all right for 'the moderators' to act to shut down 'so-and-so's' user ID without consulting anyone except their fellow members of the high council, or whatever? Seeing as this would be how, realistically, it would be likely to be perceived? If so, it would really require a major overhaul in terms of a)how moderators are appointed (I suppose everyone would need to reapply for their jobs, and that this would be fairly political, in a way that isn't now) b)how moderation decisions were expressed (much more openly, if the idea of the Barb-elite was to be avoided, though perhaps this wouldn't matter) and c)actually with regard to computer stuff, to facilitate all this. It seems as if it would involve a lot of work for someone, though, and I'm not at all sure it would lead to a better system.

And for what it's worth, I absolutely don't agree that most people who'd been subject to an (as far as they were concerned) arbitrary, temporary suspension of their activities would return to Barbelith in a mood to do anything other than be loaded for bear. Certainly, if my user ID was cut off, as it were, for a couple of weeks because I was Barbe-told-to-piss-off because of my views about what the US space programme in the Sixties was really about, I'm not sure I'd spend the dead time reconsidering.

I'd say it's precisely because Tom Coates is a distant figure, and, in particular, not a part of the eviction process until right at the end, that it works to the extent that it does. I'm not saying it's perfect, but the alternatives on offer here seem less preferable.
 
 
Seth
05:34 / 04.10.06
If time spent coding is one of the issues then can we get together and pay the person who does it? We could donate via Paypal. How many hours would it take and what's a reasonable amount to pay?
 
 
Ganesh
06:12 / 04.10.06
And for what it's worth, I absolutely don't agree that most people who'd been subject to an (as far as they were concerned) arbitrary, temporary suspension of their activities would return to Barbelith in a mood to do anything other than be loaded for bear.

We don't really know, do we? If an enforced break of a day or three were an alternative to outright banning, I think some people (whether or not "most", I have no idea) would cool down. Perhaps more importantly, I think those posters with whom they'd got into an escalating round of sniping would also have the opportunity to step back, and the board as a whole would have some breathing space.

There are plenty of Real Life examples of enforced 'time out' providing useful room for de-escalation.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:41 / 04.10.06
So, considering PW's final post to this thread, has he been banned?
 
 
Quantum
09:01 / 04.10.06
Ban me. I couldn't give a toss anymore.

Okay then! Byeeeee! Tom? Have you pushed the big red button?
 
  

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